Adamastor,
Unfortunately for the travelling public, that is not in their psyche.

The more this debacle unfolds, it seems that the bureaucrats seem to revel in the 'game' they are playing i.e. to bully their staff, and convince the public, through the media, that none of it is their individual responsibilty. That they are working damn hard to fix the problem and it will be sorted on X date.

The reality is that they have decided on a course of action and even if the evidence shows this course of action to be wrong, the egos won't allow it to be changed.

May we live in interesting times.

For those young and not so young folk desperate to become ATCO's, consider the RAAF. You won't be making the O/T as you would in AsA but at least you will have a 12 month course that at the end will pay just short of $60K + cheap housing + free medical insurance + good chance of getting leave and nearly every Xmas day off (unless you're unfortunate enough to be posted to TL or DN) + 18% super.

I am seriously considering this as an option when my soujorn in the ME finishes, the thought of going back to AsA raises the bile. I can see myself in semi retirement at Nowra, Oakey or Amberley tower.
Yes there are downsides to the military such as the posting roulette etc , but when it all goes to **** you can alway succumb to the dark side AsA or take the cash bonus :}

Air Traffic Control Officer | Defence Jobs

BTW a bloke I work with here in the pit said that this is the future of ATC, younger ex-military FAA ATCO's are going back to the military for better wages and conditions.

Spot on!
 

Max 1,

Spot on post.

Is it true that Corporate Affairs under the Dick the Dud now has over 50 staff??

That is one lot of Spin......

Gone are the days when I think we used to have one PR spokesman and you would only realize that when someone unfortunately crashed.

Sign of the times, sadly to say.

Never would they tell you how to write a NOTAM!

A lot of justified negative resentment going on here... But I believe we live in a cause and effect universe, so why then is ASA going in this bizarre staff-destroying direction ?

It is not enough for me to just constantly attack TFN and management, without taking a more "big picture" look at the ATC business and trying to actually understand why tf they make (or don't make) the decisions they do...

Where is ATC going ? Tower, approach, enroute ? A global user pays service. Automation ? Larger trans-national sectors ? De-skilling or re-skilling ? Therefore why invest in more staff, when the plan might be to just "re-deploy" existing assets more efficiently once the technology becomes viable ?

Maybe ASA is being driven on purpose to such a low-resourced (read cheap) and high-liability (read TIBA) organisation, that the government/board of directors are just getting ready to sell it (or parts of it) off to... the most convenient buyer ? FAA? Airways? Airline consortiums ? Given a Qantas/Singapore merger for sure it would be an affordable consideration.

I heard recently that Qantas (and others) might have given ASA a vote of no confidence in their service delivery (due TIBA), and so are demanding a more reliable provider to at least do, say the Ocean airspace. In response to this massive potential loss of revenue, ASA has looked at the books and perhaps realised that TAAATS cannot provide a competitive product anymore.

Without SDE, without any realised efficiencies, the ASA product has lost it's edge in the market. Apparently Version 13 has been axed as the FPCP (and ongoing modifications) does not justify the return on investment anymore. Better yet - TAAATS might just have to be scrapped in toto, and either a more competitive off-the-shelf product implemented ASAP just to keep the bucks rolling in...

Ofcourse the government will not want to let that revenue stream go, but due to the total corporatisation of it's assets, may not have a choice if the users demand a more sustainable long-term service. The US have just committed billions to upgrade their systems, and so perhaps a bit of airspace re-shuffling would be on the cards...

As for staff going overseas - well perhaps that is all just a part of the grand plan anyway !!

There's (got to be) a reason for everything :ok:

re: staff

It has been obvious for years. It took me about 2 years to get cynical and then 10 years to get fully Jack of the place. Reading JH's comments, he sees that ATC is a 5 year gig. Those of us on top increment are just costing them money and holding seats that those they can pay 50% to do similar functions are slated for.

Mt tip is that in 20 years, ATC will be staffed at maybe 30% of what it is now and all routes will be speed and level specific with all the calculations done by a computer for sector movements and separation talking directly via CPDLC to the Avionics. In High level Enroute land, it is pretty much this way already.

I think you are giving them too much credit, wolf wolf- I really do. For the scenario you describe, there would need to be a group of people who are "in" on it at the top, and have a well thought-out plan.
What is happening just looks like plain vanilla amateur attempts at trying to continually cut costs beyond what the system can bear. Short-term management.

Absolutely ferris! The Liberal guvmint implemented a "cost-saving at any cost and a profit above all" policy. That was the mandate and the board has been following the guide with great gusto and enthusiasm. The managers were in such a short-sighted, goal/bonus oriented, beligerent rush to slash costs and generate huge profits that not a lot of thought went into a sustainable future. (Afterall, the guvmint's not going to let a department fail is it? Sound similar to the thinking in several US mortgage companies?) In addition, many of the managers in non-ATC Ops areas had little or no history with AsA or within aviation. They couldn't recognise a clearance from a NOTAM. Even the ATC Ops managers were ultra-enthusiastic youngsters promoted when the experienced incumbents were pushed aside ostensibly for being dead wood, but in reality for waving too many red flags. The senior managers were hired on resumes that indicated they would do as they were told, could take a balance sheet at face value and their conscience would take a backseat to their ambitions and the directions of the Minister and the board. If a process, task or role didn't appear to make sense, who cares if it affected a more critical task in another area? It was easier to slash the process than research and justify its retention.

Wolf_wolf, AsA is paying the price for overzealous cost cutting...pure and simple It's like a short-sighted farmer who has traded maximum profits from his sheep in the short term without investing back in the land for the long term. Here we are a few years down the track and the farmer's fields are overgrazed, weeds are over-running the nutritious grasses, erosion is rampant, the quality of his product is declining sharply and the few able and wise sheep left have lost patience and recognize that circumstances aren't about to turn around soon and are slipping through holes in the dilapidated, under-maintained fences for greener pastures beyond. The realisation is starting to sink in with everyone but the farmer that a large infrastructure investment is going to be required.

So what does the AsA farmer do as he witnesses his income decline, his productivity reduce and his costs climb despite his best efforts?

Gives himself a pat on the back, praises his foremen and BLAMES THE SHEEP!!!! BRILLIANT!!! Whoo Hoo!!! Management at its finest.

The entire board should be sacked for incompetency. No doubt, the bonus in the termination clause (if there is a termination clause) will be worth waiting for. (Perhaps they could get a new job with Rex?)


On a slightly separate thread, if you're intending to run a government department like a business, then be prepared to let it fail like a business! Perhaps, instead of the philosophy for the last 15 years of deliberately knee-capping unions, now that business leaders have trouble keeping good workers, it might be time to promote unions again as a way to retain a strong workforce.

Oh so true... and, at the next CANSO meeting, it'll be smiles all around when the AsA reps walk through the door.

AirNoServices: the AsA management did have a goal in mind to be an international service provider and to look for revenue streams overseas. They just didn't figure that each of the controllers would take to the challenge with such personal and unsharing conscientiousness.

Wolf-wolf, I reckon this is all crap, and your post is full of of business management course speak.

The console ATC provides a separation service, a flight information service and a SAR service.

These services are tied to the regulations.

When I'm at the console, I'm not thinking about "the business" -
I'm constantly thinking about guarding my backside and doing the best I can
at any given time, under the regulations.

For a lot of the time this requires the exercise of good judgement, something
that cannot be covered in manuals.

The sooner we divorce the operational from the business the better.

We can then exclude at least one level of management, which has got to be a good thing.

CG

If the FPCP goes at the window, going with it will be big savings to the airlines.

The Flight Plan Conflict Probe (FPCP) has been designed to unlock the User Preferred Routing (UPR) efficiencies for the Upper Air Space (UAS) sectors. It was the jewel in the crown. Above FL280 in huge tracts of Oceanic and Continental airspace, it would have allowed the airlines Free Flight to plan the most efficient routing.

I haven't heard that it is dead, PC (an ASA manager) promised the airlines at Waypoint 2008 that it would be implemented by the middle of next year.

The mantra spouted by the bureaucrats at the conference was that ASA were going to stop over-promising and under-delivering.

Further to lodowns' post, its the old snout in the trough syndrome, ASA is a huge money spinner, @$677 million last year at $106 million profit. This year will be even bigger. Charges fronm ATC and RFF generated around 90% of the income.

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...report0607.pdf

In this report we see, in Canberra, 13 executives, 140 Senior managers, and 191 clerical staff, 88 technical professional. With adds on there are 497 at the end of 2006/7 roaming the halls of BS castle.

From the report we have in total 283 senior managers and 13 executives.
In Caroline Flemings speech to Waypoint 2008 , after the creation of the ATS Line Managers (ALMs), they have delivered the Leaders Leading course to 470 managers.
Controller numbers are stated at 983, but this counts the new level of managers as ATC. Controllers talking to aircraft are actually somewhere around the 750-760 mark. The report quotes 553 Firies, though I wouldn't know how many of them are available to pull you out of a burning aircraft.23 Flight Data Co-ordinators(FDCs), and 74 Flight Information Service Officers (Flightwatch).

Each year we have seen a shrinking of controller numbers, this means we must have fantastic managers, less people dealing with more aircraft. Don't let those managers go, they can do this forever. No they can't. But lets encourage and reward them for this.

Now the chooks are coming home to roost lets blame it on the people we have been shafting for years.

When it comes to Asa, if you are trying to decide whether this is a super smart,secret plan or a complete balls-up.
Always go for the balls-up.
Always.:}

Airservices management.:ugh:
Oxymoron.

Funky L, with the way the AU$ is dropping, probably worth postponing the military a bit longer ;)

From wolf wolf
Some happy snaps of TFN and Thales executives signing papers were doing the rounds last week. Nothing official to the troops yet, but the word is we will be getting the Thales system currently being designed for Singapore. Version 13 is mostly in the bin. FPCF - my guess it will still be deployed in the current TAAATS system (2 or 3 upgrades still to come till it is fit for purpose). Talk is of a single ATS centre for Australia (vs BN and ML) but where?

Nocshop :suspect:

This article just about sums up the feeling of the troop in ASA. A personal copy should have given to each member of the Board at the "luncheon" at Melbourne today. Was asked why I didn't attend- just wouldn't have been able to hold my mouth shut. Pay in the bank tomorrow- you beauty!!

Aviator - Australia's Aviation Industry Magazine

It's already in the current software!!! It is an imbedded part of the software; just not "enabled" due to the bugs still to sorted out (and the little matter of teaching everyone how to use it). Correct about the multiple upgrades to get it working though:E

On the subject of mgt bonuses for ineptness.

Have a mate working on the west coast. He reckons that they heard from an ex Air Shambles BS castle guy that TFN is on a fab wicket.

Story is that his 1st contract had him on just over $1,000,000 pa PLUS a $600,000 bonus for EVERY $40,000,000 saved. :eek:

Note the wording, I was told, is important. Not profit generated, or new business secured. No it is saved. Easiest way = cut back on everything including staff, training, investment in equipment etc etc.

Now TFN wants to be our best friend and is fixing the mess those "renegade" controllers have made....???? Don't think so. By the way for comparison the absolute top increment for an active controller is around $135,000 - and this is after about 15 years of service.

So what we have is a CEO who is incredibly motivated to go in with the knife on a slash and burn campaign. It explains why we had Managers wining Oz Day awards for contributing to the "cost cutting" mantra. And the current state of the ..... um Gulag, I mean Academy.

How can we possibly expect a CEO with such financial incentives to make decisions in the best interest of the company OR the customer.

For all you media types looking for a story, this is it. How can this be allowed. Now we have to put up with the spin that the naughty controllers are not playing his game.

Sorry TFN, tell someone who cares. Vote of no confidence from me. :=

The sociopaths running things are slowly understanding the predicament they have got themselves, and by default the travelling public and controllers, into.

Their answer is not to admit fault, but try to force draconian conditions onto the controllers. Get rid of any rostering constraints (bugger any concern for the health of their staff) and make it an obligation to do overtime.

What they don't understand is that people are leaving, and will leave.
When will these clowns wake-up.
I wonder if Big Tony will use the " I didn't know " excuses of his predecessors in government. Because Mr Albanese you are being told, or attempted to being told through your underlings.

august 48th today?

Check this out - it's a pisser.

YouTube - We still have TIBA at home...

I would live to give a huge 'ahahaha' etc to that but you know what? This whole thing is just beyond a joke now.:ugh: TIBA tonight from 1345-1945 north of Brisbane to Rocky.

Philthy;
That was awesome!! Couldn't keep the grin off my face:ok::ok:

yeah, and even though so far AsA has been unable to implement obligatory overtime, all controllers for that group were interviewed by their ALM to ascertain their reason for non-availability

for christsakes, the airlines overstaff to cover unexpected absences, but not AsA - they 'promote' 107 controllers away from moving traffic, and then try make the remaining ATC's work even harder and never have two days off in a row.

and now AsA put out TIBA notams citing "staff non-avialability" - I notice they don't NOTAM when airspace was kept open by someone agreeing further fatigue themselves on yet another overtime shift.

Can you say..."I wasn't available because it was my day off"?

What would be the repercussions if you did?

Well, back in August, AsA issued an overtime wishlist - a proposed "memorandum of understanding" that went as follows:
and they were surprised that we did not agree to handing them ourselves on a platter....


so in September AsA "softened" the overtime proposal to:


Notice this is a proposed change to our existing agreement (in spite of the fact that it contains the standard clause of "no extra claims for the life of the agreement") Much to AsA regret, nowhere is it written in our current EBA that there is an "obligation" to work overtime.

Unfortunately, this place has been so reliant on overtime for the last 3-4 years, when they promoted 107 controllers away from the console - WITH NO REPLACEMENTS - the wheels fell off.

So now AsA is trying to argue that we HAVE to do overtime, just because we're an employee. :mad:

Does anyone besides desperate managers think it is a good idea for ATC'ers to be even more fatigued???

So is the 'new proposal' law yet?

If so how did it get to be so without agreement?

If not why is anyone even answering these questions about non-availability?

Unless you are on the top pay increment you have to grovel to your manager to go up each year. As I understand it advancement is entirley at the whim of said manger. I think those of us on the top would tell them where to go, politely of course.

Don't have to make excuses if you don't answer the phone.

but then you'd get interviewed about why you don't answer the phone :rolleyes:

Honestly, I think Asa would lock us in the building if they could.:sad:

How does none of your f***ing business sound?

You think? They opened the phone book as my number is not listed and called all of the same surname until they found a relative that would give them my number. I wish this was made up but it is unfortunately true. Happened 2 weeks ago. NOT cool.:*

Doesn't this sort of searching for people on days off constitute harassment ?

When they do interview you, make sure your at the back of the line.

I'm pretty sure they won't buy enough rounds to shoot you individually, not when they realise the cost benefits of mulitple shootings with a single round.

Now that's desperation!

Did they offer to send TFN's own limo around to deliver you to your place of incarceration, err employment?

great job, pity about the :mad: house management!

Guessing there aren't too many "Tobzalp"s in the White Pages. ;)

Hope you gave the relo who passed on your number a bollocking.

Keep reminding me why I left the joint years ago guys.

I'm not holding my breath, but am wondering how long these bureaucrats will take to work out that the 'stick' isn't working and maybe its time to hold out the olive branch and try the 'carrot'.

TFN admitted that they hadn't done any workforce planning, and then went on to streamline (gut) the College, not knowing whether it was prudent to do so or not. The controllers and our Association warned him three years ago that staffing was dire and would become critical in the near future. From other posts on his incentive scheme it is not hard to work out for what personal gain this was done.

His sychophants have been telling him that technology will replace the controllers, if the history of ASA tells us anything then it is that the over-promise and under-deliver culture is ingrained in the Alan Woods Building.

When things are not delivered it is always someone elses fault. For the industry types, the promise of User Preferred Routing will NOT be available as promised by the middle of 2009, it was achievable but was never going to be delivered as they won't put the money towards the software. $106 million profit from the industry but you wont be getting UPRs or much in the way of RNPs. The manager who promised it at Waypoint 2008 is ' all tip and no iceberg'. Controllers on the ground have a far better idea of what can actually be achieved as we can see where the money is going, and where the staff are to implement projects.
SDE due Nov 2007, Flight Plan Conflict Probe pick any date in the last 4 years, Full staffing pick any date in the last 6 years. All of these are anyones guess.

Due to the creation of the ALM AWA positions and corresponding reduction in real numbers of controllers, there are no staff to assist with these projects as it is left to the remaining active controllers to struggle to keep airspace open.
A large proportion of sector simulator exercises at the centres, to train the new recruits, are out of date and not usable due to lack of staff to update them. The place is slowly and inexorably grinding to a halt.
One AWA ALM, who still has the moral compass intact, wrote on an Aviation site of what is wrong. We will soon see him back at the console. Lipservices are still shooting the messenger and ignoring the message.

To try and fix this ASA are attempting to take away our Principles of Rostering ( we have no CAR 48 Duty times protection), sick leave, and obligate us to attend on our days off.

The numbers of new hires PROMISED is NOT ACHIEVABLE, significant numbers of controllers are working, or have worked, out their exit strategies.
Those approaching retirement are bringing their retirement dates forward, and still these bureaucrats are saying there is no crisis.

Wait for the excuses and blame game to start as things get worse not better, we already have instituitionalised overtime and they want more. Refresher training is computer based Q&A, no simulator, there is no staff development
As the place crumbles even more, the blame will be put on the controllers, as the 50 odd people in the corporate spin doctors bunker continue to manipulate the media to protect a short-sighted, and incentive driven, management? team that have failed to plan and therefore plan to fail.

Now , more than anytime in the last twenty five plus years I have been around, ASA need to get controllers onside. Its not happening. In the past if we were rung up to come in our days off and had something on, the answer would be " I have a kids, wifes birthday, have family outing planned etc, etc, but if you can't find anyone else ring me back ". This would be told to the next person and eventually find someone to fill the hole or you would cancel your activity to attend. We got paid for this but rarely thanked. That style of supervisor is almost extinct these days, or that disillusioned with ASA that they have just gone back to controlling and left managing to the new breed. The new breed who have left us with this a staffing crisis, lack of training capability, and a disillusioned and disengaged workforce. But we do have a lot more managers.

Anyway, got to polish up the CV now.

west atc,

easy to say that when you are headed for much greener pastures very soon! :E not quite so easy when you need that same manager to sign off an increment advancement each year. :\

So if you don't do overtime and have a legitimate reason such as.....my wife and kids need me to be a father/husband because that is a more important aspect of life that working.....then you won't get an annual increment advancement?

Is that what you are saying????

Is this true??

Four shifts to go to be sure to be sure! :D

http://www.vateir.com/Charts/EIDW/Aerodrome.pdf