Pacific Blue with no crew?
 

Rumour has it that the crewing contracts for PB have been terminated and that they have no crew (Pilots or Flight Attendants) after the twentieth of August.

What's happening? I am in the middle of doing a 737 rating for a job!:sad:

Are you trying to say they have shut the airline down? No crew = no flights, the beancounters may love the thought of not having to pay ( even the $1.40 an hour they already pay) to crew the flights, but I would suggest that with no crew, the aircraft cannot fly themselves. But in this day and age, and this enviroment, nothing would surprise me........scene at bar..."Mate..I have just had a great thought how to improve my bonus, pay off the second holiday home in Hawai, get the bigger boat and lease my own jet...I will sack all the crew, that will save a hell of a lot on the bottom line!!"..."Bloody Hell..why did i not think of that!"::ugh:

Hey BM,
I have heard that pac blue are getting rid of the service providers (i.e. Rishworth and Conair), and are taking the employment in house.

So chill, sounds like a positive.

bout bloody time..Rishworths should change to a field theyre suited to..like warehouse and logistics recruitment

Sweet, so would this mean more coin if this is the case??


go_soaring! instead

Nothing from Rishworths.. have only heard if affects Con Air....

blahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!

There will be No more coin for Rishworth PB guys. There is talk of not renewing some contracts. VB has told its pilots that there is 4 aircraft going to PB and will be wet leased with VB crew. About to put out expressions of interest to its pilots for sacondments to NZ.

Just like the rush for a secondment to VOZ....

There never was a "secondment" to Voz krusty. To go there meant giving up what you had at VB. IF it is a secondment to some Pacific flying, they may well get some takers, as long as it is on present VB money and allowances.

The PB contracts are being tossed in favor of some other arrangement, then one can assume that the airline is in some sort of talks with it crew re various employment models/options and Finally some more $$ .:ok:
I would have it a guess that any VB guys operating on PB routes, receiving a pay slip twice that of there Kiwi cousins, may end up causing more than one or two problems between the two groups. If the roll was reversed and VB needed to crew an additional 50% capacity overnight, I'm sure the thought of foreign crews operating VB routes at twice the pay would unsettle a wasps nest............:=

They were in talks regarding employment models, but VB have put an end to that citing fuel prices etc. So it's status quo for the foreseable future I believe.

I would hope VB crews think twice about the industrial situation of their poor cousins before considering these secondments. Although something tells me they won't.

Sorry to say lads, there are blokes at VB that would sell their mother and fly for nothing. They will have no trouble at all crewing these aircraft with VB crew, no problems at all. The only thing that may stop VB from crewing these aircraft is their EBA which only covers Domestic Ops in Aus, its on page one of the document! Yet as usual, the Feds will roll over and take it like a W@#$E. I can see it now, "If we can cover VAus pilots, you can have the VB crews for wet lease". :rolleyes:

Dirty sometimes you speak things rationally sometimes you just speak sh*t buddy. WHO do VB guys owe anything to regarding PB? I think you should probably look at the PB history of start up etc before tossing that one around.

PB contractors are that.. contractors. The fact is VB are sending 4 A/C over there that cannot be crewed by PB due numbers. Therefore the crew will be going also. Of coarse it is on current conditions for VB guys. It is a secondment. It may surprise a few but this is not new either. Not long after PB first started and heap of VB drivers went over there for 8 months. The AFAP knew that then and know now also, They put out a letter this week about it. They will not put a fight up as it is not taking PB jobs. It is increased capacity that cannot be crewed by them. As for pays well sorry but if you sign a contract you are accepting your individual conditions despite what anyone else has. (A good warning for future VA guys actually) As for causing a stir thats nonsense. Nothing will happen at all. Infact nearly all PB crew have applications with VB anyway.

PB are getting 2 more aircraft before year end, and another two early next year. Most airlines would be able to cope with that, just hire a few more pilots. For the benefit of others, PB are having huge problems retaining crew, due to the conditions offered. Over the last 6 to 8 months ALPA have been negotiating full time jobs, not contracts, and better conditions. Hence the reason for this thread in the first place. http://www.pprune.org/forums/d-g-rep...t=pacific+blue
The attrition rate is so bad, they would have huge issues even crewing one additional 737 with in 2 months.
SilverSleuth very correct VB crew are not taking jobs from PB crew, but they will be removing any of negotiation ability they had. I think its a very thin sheet of ice they walk on, whilst ALPA are actively in negotiations with the airline. Lets face it, it doesn't help. As for the past when PB borrowed 6 VB pilots for 4 month over the winter of 2005, that was then, (start up faze) this is now, in the 5th year of operation. As I said earlier if PB guys operated VB routes even without taking jobs from the current stable, there would be hell to pay.............plain and simple. :ugh:

I can see where you're coming from, but would hope that things are seen a little differently now PB is a well established airline, and the crews are doing their best to negotiate an employment agreement. I believe there will be a formal request made by ALPA to AFAP regarding this, but I don't think it will have much effect.

That's not true though. Maybe 10% would. All would if they didn't mind moving to Aus. It would be fair to say nearly all PB crew are looking for work elsewhere.

It would be fair to say nearly all PB crew are looking for work elsewhere..

Yes! ...and here-in lies PB's crewing problem!

Much better coin to be had everywhere else, including even the smaller Jitconnect local operation now!
Road show after road show... alot of apologies and "information flyers/handouts"... they don't pay your rising food and power bills!

Pay more and you'll retain more, especially given PB's very healthy profit last year!

Let's hope you get better T&C's with all this.

VB it seems don't even have enough crew themselves, given all the cancellations and route combining going on, let alone to crew four planes in NZ.

Sorry PM, you're absolutely right. I should have used the inverted commas with my "secondment".

It's interesting though that with all the crewing issues these days airline managements still expect pilots to simply "bend over and take it". When finally the last of them refuse to do it, we may see some improvement in T&C's.

Krusty, I don't think it is a case of airline management expecting it, more like pilot's keep offering themselves up! Take a look at V Oz, heaps of people willing to work for $53,000 PA, not many said NO!:rolleyes:

Please can I have the rough end of the pineapple this time!;)

Generally speaking PB pilots have no issue with VB crewing a/c UNTIL PB can crew them. However it is going to cause an issue the longer this wet lease continues.

While this is what we have been told I suspect VB is more of a long term solution. PB could crew the a/c but do not attract enough suitable applicants. Pay is not the major issue attracting applicants, 42K NZD plus expenses for a rating is.

I hope the VB pilot group do take account of these issues as I am sure if the shoe were on the other foot the s**t would hit the fan. PB pilots are being fairly good about this recognising it is for the long term good of the company.

To the guy doing your rating- don't panic there will be a new contract sorted on the same conditions.

More a storm in a teacup then? I was getting worried I would spend all this moeny and not have a job.

Thanks all.

To the guy doing his endorsement. If you are signing a contract you have nothing to worry about as long as your happy with the terms in your contract. But if your contract says can be axed with 2 days notice well you can;t really whinge if it happens when you agreed to those terms. (and i hope that doesnt happen by the way.) In terms of PB guys etc not bothered by VB crewing their OWN planes. Well thats tough titty! Its Virgin aircraft they can do whatever they want. Even if thats for the long term. As someone else said I really think some people forget what the term contractor means. It gives you nothing except what you personally agree to by choice. Thats fact and thats life.

can't see what the big deal is... VB has 4 surplus aircraft with crew to fly them.... why wouldn't VB send pilots along on secondment?? And I don't think it will be a long term option in any case... as noted at the recent VB management roadshow: PB exists because it offers a lower cost base. So as soon as PB can find its own pilots, you will no doubt see the VB boys sent home to OZ ASAP.
Anyway, rumour here is, that it might turn out be a "route secondment" rather than a "pilot secondment" i.e some/all of the 4 aircraft may do the Pacific Island runs (ex-Australia) from Australian bases, not NZ bases.

So we're concerned that lower paid NZ based pilots could resent higher paid Aus based pilots flying VH registered 737s from Australia to a handful of countries that are not New Zealand?

Eh? I would be concerned if someone came along and took my place for less money, but if I were to be 'overcut' I would consider it an opportunity to bring my own conditions up closer to the higher of the two.

Myths I have to dispel: The front page of VB's pilot EBA does not restrict its coverage to domestic operations, nor did the previous. It only mentions "737" and "Embraer". This document is publicly available. Point google at it.

Virgin Blue has not *lately* cancelled or consolidated flights due to pilot shortages. Broken aircraft certainly, economic convenience I suspect but not pilot shortage. 737 leave is on offer and it's a rare E-Jet pilot who gets any overtime.

Yusef,

Looked up google

1.2.3
This agreement applies to pilots employed by Virgin Blue who fly Boeing 737 or Embraer aircraft in Virgin Blue's Australian domestic operations.

Sleuth, did I hit a raw nerve? :)

I would imagine that it will be day trips for BNE based flight crew to places like Fiji and Vanuatu? The new work rules would allow such flying and may actually keep 737 drivers busy instead of giving them more grey days as flying decreases over the coming months. It also cuts out more overnights which cost money. Two PB crews overnighting in BNE cost $1.5k x 7 days = $10.5k p/w x 52 = $546K saving per annum by doing this.
If the pilots and cabin crew have the hours to do this flying and your already paying them a salary anyway why wouldn't you do it?
BG is looking to cut costs anyway he can to offset the price of fuel.

Dirty Deeds

you are quite right. I concede that point, but I'm sure the wording deliberately defines VB pilots without excluding the possibility of us flying intl ops. If I added a Fiji run to my roster I would still be a "pilot employed by Virgin Blue who fl[ies] Boeing 737 aircraft in Virgin Blue's domestic operations".

Yusef,

I understand Fiji is a Commonwealth country, but is Fiji an Australian domestic port? Where does it end, is Christchurch and Australian domestic port? Is L.A. an Australian domestic port? If Bali appeared on my roster I would have to assume I was now employed on VB flying International routes on a Domestic EBA, it looks fairly clear cut to me, unless I am not getting something?

At the end of the day you are all contractors, I hope you all remember what that means...
No job security...

Deeds

I am not suggesting for a moment that Nadi, Christchurch or anywhere else are Aus domestic ports, just that the authors of the EBA cleverly phrased it as "pilot employed by Virgin Blue who fl[ies] Boeing 737 aircraft in Virgin Blue's domestic operations". Just because I may fly in VB's domestic operations, it doesn't mean I am limited to domestic operations exclusively.

PB axes Contract Aircrew
 

By the sounds of it, its just the guys at Conair that are getting the axe. But it seems to be Conair who has pulled the plug.. See the story here:

Pac Blue staff in limbo over jobs - New Zealand's source for business, stock market & currency news on Stuff.co.nz

...and on the same day VB pilots are invited to express interest in secondment to PB AKL base, 8 capts, 4 FOs required for up to 6 months to help PB cope with the increase in flying from late Aug 08.

At this stage conditions are not clear other than "Virgin Blue base salary"

Also possible is VB pilots operating intl flights ex Aus from Nov 08.

Keep the information flowing, people.

(Note;written prior to seeing the above post)

Yusef: If Dirty Deeds above didn't make it plain enough for you, you need to go back to start, and do not pass Go, as you just don't understand it.

International flying is NOT Domestic flying.
The two have very different requirements and rules, which each International country you land in, expects you to meet.
There's no "Ooops, just gone past Coffs... think I'll visit Norfolk or Tonga today."
Once you leave Australian Domestic airspace, it is very specific and NOT ambiguous. You are employed specifically to fly International flights, as you are employed specifically for Australian Domestic flight.
EBA's are just as specific.

No one could disagree with you saying: "I would be concerned if someone came along and took my place for less money, but if I were to be 'overcut' I would consider it an opportunity to bring my own conditions up closer to the higher of the two.

...and that's what the crew there are trying to do but PBN and Silver Sleuth sumit up:

SilverSleuth very correct VB crew are not taking jobs from PB crew, but they will be removing any of negotiation ability they had. I think its a very thin sheet of ice they walk on, whilst ALPA are actively in negotiations with the airline. Lets face it, it doesn't help.

Well unfortunately thats tough luck. Its a fact of life that the VB crews are more interested (as they should be) in the job security of its own pilot group not that of the contractors that were brought in to do the flying that was promised to the VB crews in the first place for half the wages. There is no malice or bad intentions but in the end the survival and security of the VB pilots is their concern. As someone else said you take a contract you take the risk. VB crew don't owe anything to PB crew.
Infact I dont think its out of the question that Vb crews could possibly be doing all the PB flying in the near future. But again I think you will find most Vb crew would have the attitude thats only the flying they were promised (to their faces) anyway.
Personally I would rather see all PB crew intergrated into VB and I think no one else would mind either (long as they go in as FOs, plus they still need EMB fos). In the end time will tell i guess.


ps Yes VB crew will be operating internationally from Nov also

And there in one post are almost all the reasons pilots find themselves in the position that is sooooo often discussed on this forum

Thanks for your support Silver. There is such a thing as professional integrity which you seem to be lacking. So you won't mind when the shoe is on the other foot if we come over and take your work as we are contractors and can do what we want?

Sad thing is we would not do that to our 'fellow colleagues', we would talk to your group first.
BTW No prob with VB crew coming over, just a problem with your attitude.


Thanks

Cheers for that Sleuth..

I see the world owes you a career and everything else that goes with it...

If you talked to any of the PB pilot group which I'm sure you haven't, I don't think you'd find any that would knowing fly an Virgin Domestic route... they know better than that...

The flying which you are so eager to point out, that 'should have' been given to the VB pilot group is there.. in the form of V Australia. If you don't like getting paid $50 K for being a Cruise F/O (which is pityful) then thats your tough luck....

Well.. I'm pleased to see there is some solidarity in the profession of a pilot worldwide..:yuk:

As an up and coming pilot looking at one day moving into an airline, I can say that I am pleased that all my workmates are looking at stabbing me in the back, and generally shafting me.. I don't think it is the airlines inserting pineapples into me as is mentioned on here, but it's the other pilots that do that instead!!

Thanks guys.. I'll remember the words written on here by Sleuth et al for the future.

Well done Sleuth, it takes a special type of person to express them selfs in that way :E I can only suggest an attitude adjustment mate:ugh: Work together people and you will get what you seek.

"Promised" is an emotional and manipulative word. Used to great effect by the female in any relationship. Usually with little basis in fact but difficult to argue with due to its vague nature.