More a storm in a teacup then? I was getting worried I would spend all this moeny and not have a job.

Thanks all.

To the guy doing his endorsement. If you are signing a contract you have nothing to worry about as long as your happy with the terms in your contract. But if your contract says can be axed with 2 days notice well you can;t really whinge if it happens when you agreed to those terms. (and i hope that doesnt happen by the way.) In terms of PB guys etc not bothered by VB crewing their OWN planes. Well thats tough titty! Its Virgin aircraft they can do whatever they want. Even if thats for the long term. As someone else said I really think some people forget what the term contractor means. It gives you nothing except what you personally agree to by choice. Thats fact and thats life.

can't see what the big deal is... VB has 4 surplus aircraft with crew to fly them.... why wouldn't VB send pilots along on secondment?? And I don't think it will be a long term option in any case... as noted at the recent VB management roadshow: PB exists because it offers a lower cost base. So as soon as PB can find its own pilots, you will no doubt see the VB boys sent home to OZ ASAP.
Anyway, rumour here is, that it might turn out be a "route secondment" rather than a "pilot secondment" i.e some/all of the 4 aircraft may do the Pacific Island runs (ex-Australia) from Australian bases, not NZ bases.

So we're concerned that lower paid NZ based pilots could resent higher paid Aus based pilots flying VH registered 737s from Australia to a handful of countries that are not New Zealand?

Eh? I would be concerned if someone came along and took my place for less money, but if I were to be 'overcut' I would consider it an opportunity to bring my own conditions up closer to the higher of the two.

Myths I have to dispel: The front page of VB's pilot EBA does not restrict its coverage to domestic operations, nor did the previous. It only mentions "737" and "Embraer". This document is publicly available. Point google at it.

Virgin Blue has not *lately* cancelled or consolidated flights due to pilot shortages. Broken aircraft certainly, economic convenience I suspect but not pilot shortage. 737 leave is on offer and it's a rare E-Jet pilot who gets any overtime.

Yusef,

Looked up google

1.2.3
This agreement applies to pilots employed by Virgin Blue who fly Boeing 737 or Embraer aircraft in Virgin Blue's Australian domestic operations.

Sleuth, did I hit a raw nerve? :)

I would imagine that it will be day trips for BNE based flight crew to places like Fiji and Vanuatu? The new work rules would allow such flying and may actually keep 737 drivers busy instead of giving them more grey days as flying decreases over the coming months. It also cuts out more overnights which cost money. Two PB crews overnighting in BNE cost $1.5k x 7 days = $10.5k p/w x 52 = $546K saving per annum by doing this.
If the pilots and cabin crew have the hours to do this flying and your already paying them a salary anyway why wouldn't you do it?
BG is looking to cut costs anyway he can to offset the price of fuel.

Dirty Deeds

you are quite right. I concede that point, but I'm sure the wording deliberately defines VB pilots without excluding the possibility of us flying intl ops. If I added a Fiji run to my roster I would still be a "pilot employed by Virgin Blue who fl[ies] Boeing 737 aircraft in Virgin Blue's domestic operations".

Yusef,

I understand Fiji is a Commonwealth country, but is Fiji an Australian domestic port? Where does it end, is Christchurch and Australian domestic port? Is L.A. an Australian domestic port? If Bali appeared on my roster I would have to assume I was now employed on VB flying International routes on a Domestic EBA, it looks fairly clear cut to me, unless I am not getting something?

At the end of the day you are all contractors, I hope you all remember what that means...
No job security...

Deeds

I am not suggesting for a moment that Nadi, Christchurch or anywhere else are Aus domestic ports, just that the authors of the EBA cleverly phrased it as "pilot employed by Virgin Blue who fl[ies] Boeing 737 aircraft in Virgin Blue's domestic operations". Just because I may fly in VB's domestic operations, it doesn't mean I am limited to domestic operations exclusively.

PB axes Contract Aircrew
 

By the sounds of it, its just the guys at Conair that are getting the axe. But it seems to be Conair who has pulled the plug.. See the story here:

Pac Blue staff in limbo over jobs - New Zealand's source for business, stock market & currency news on Stuff.co.nz

...and on the same day VB pilots are invited to express interest in secondment to PB AKL base, 8 capts, 4 FOs required for up to 6 months to help PB cope with the increase in flying from late Aug 08.

At this stage conditions are not clear other than "Virgin Blue base salary"

Also possible is VB pilots operating intl flights ex Aus from Nov 08.

Keep the information flowing, people.

(Note;written prior to seeing the above post)

Yusef: If Dirty Deeds above didn't make it plain enough for you, you need to go back to start, and do not pass Go, as you just don't understand it.

International flying is NOT Domestic flying.
The two have very different requirements and rules, which each International country you land in, expects you to meet.
There's no "Ooops, just gone past Coffs... think I'll visit Norfolk or Tonga today."
Once you leave Australian Domestic airspace, it is very specific and NOT ambiguous. You are employed specifically to fly International flights, as you are employed specifically for Australian Domestic flight.
EBA's are just as specific.

No one could disagree with you saying: "I would be concerned if someone came along and took my place for less money, but if I were to be 'overcut' I would consider it an opportunity to bring my own conditions up closer to the higher of the two.

...and that's what the crew there are trying to do but PBN and Silver Sleuth sumit up:

SilverSleuth very correct VB crew are not taking jobs from PB crew, but they will be removing any of negotiation ability they had. I think its a very thin sheet of ice they walk on, whilst ALPA are actively in negotiations with the airline. Lets face it, it doesn't help.

Well unfortunately thats tough luck. Its a fact of life that the VB crews are more interested (as they should be) in the job security of its own pilot group not that of the contractors that were brought in to do the flying that was promised to the VB crews in the first place for half the wages. There is no malice or bad intentions but in the end the survival and security of the VB pilots is their concern. As someone else said you take a contract you take the risk. VB crew don't owe anything to PB crew.
Infact I dont think its out of the question that Vb crews could possibly be doing all the PB flying in the near future. But again I think you will find most Vb crew would have the attitude thats only the flying they were promised (to their faces) anyway.
Personally I would rather see all PB crew intergrated into VB and I think no one else would mind either (long as they go in as FOs, plus they still need EMB fos). In the end time will tell i guess.


ps Yes VB crew will be operating internationally from Nov also

And there in one post are almost all the reasons pilots find themselves in the position that is sooooo often discussed on this forum

Thanks for your support Silver. There is such a thing as professional integrity which you seem to be lacking. So you won't mind when the shoe is on the other foot if we come over and take your work as we are contractors and can do what we want?

Sad thing is we would not do that to our 'fellow colleagues', we would talk to your group first.
BTW No prob with VB crew coming over, just a problem with your attitude.


Thanks

Cheers for that Sleuth..

I see the world owes you a career and everything else that goes with it...

If you talked to any of the PB pilot group which I'm sure you haven't, I don't think you'd find any that would knowing fly an Virgin Domestic route... they know better than that...

The flying which you are so eager to point out, that 'should have' been given to the VB pilot group is there.. in the form of V Australia. If you don't like getting paid $50 K for being a Cruise F/O (which is pityful) then thats your tough luck....

Well.. I'm pleased to see there is some solidarity in the profession of a pilot worldwide..:yuk:

As an up and coming pilot looking at one day moving into an airline, I can say that I am pleased that all my workmates are looking at stabbing me in the back, and generally shafting me.. I don't think it is the airlines inserting pineapples into me as is mentioned on here, but it's the other pilots that do that instead!!

Thanks guys.. I'll remember the words written on here by Sleuth et al for the future.

Well done Sleuth, it takes a special type of person to express them selfs in that way :E I can only suggest an attitude adjustment mate:ugh: Work together people and you will get what you seek.

"Promised" is an emotional and manipulative word. Used to great effect by the female in any relationship. Usually with little basis in fact but difficult to argue with due to its vague nature.