RAAF ATC Staffing Levels
 

G'day all,

A little birdie tells me that at the end of last week, somewhere between 15 and 20 RAAF ATCs resigned. Most are headed to other providers. This represents around 10% of the ATC category (my guess). That kind of percentage would hurt any organisation.

I am also lead to believe it is not just disgruntled bograts - people in higher positions are also headed for other (not necessarily greener) pastures.

This week will be a very interesting one for the category. I wonder what band-aid practice the RAAF will implement this time? After all, we can't have blunts being paid more than aircrew now, can we.......?

It looks like ATC shortages worldwide are effecting all providers.

Good luck, whatever side of the fence you are on. SATC - start to ramp up!

Sayonara,

Showa Cho.

I know of two WGCDR ATCO's who have resigned in the last month. Hope they've found greener pastures. It's great for colleagues of mine who may not be promoted into great gigs because of it. :ok:

Probably all their blue suit buddies in Air No Services giving them a leg up and free angle into the desired jobs.... :eek:

I wouldn't mind if the departures mostly came from Townsville. :E

We can only live in hope. Townsville is without a doubt the most incompetent bunch in the country. They seem to be able to find new ways to delay and generally fcuk you around on a daily basis :ugh:

Mind you I base this assessment on being the only military controlled airport I fly into. Perhaps other RAAF aerodromes are worse (I shudder to think).

Try Sydney - 2nd best ATCs in the world

By world standards that I've seen, Sydney is pretty good .... try JFK for a laugh.

Hey Keg,


Can you PM me with the names of the two WGCDR's?

Thanks

In my short experience in the Top End, I have found the controllers at RAAF Tindal great, in particular, there is often one with a South African accent who is always brilliant. Darwin is also good, although I'm not sure if the controllers there are civ/mil.

NZScion,
Out of interest what experience do you have operating into and out of capital city airports?

Virgindriver and Capt.Grumpy, please don’t blame the individual controllers. I think you will find that it is the leadership. The RAAF is using some of the most archaic rules in history – more suited to British Colonial India than Australia in the 21st century. This is the type of leadership which resulted in $1 billion being lost on the Seasprite helicopter project.

Our military air traffic controllers in Townsville and all around Australia are totally let down by the people in Canberra who should be showing the proper leadership.

By the way, there is now a $50,000 award for the best investigative article on the Super Seasprite fiasco – see here.

NO Dick, I am in and out of the place two or three times a week and the individual controllers just can't cut the mustard. It has nothing to do with their leadership or Canberra.

Cut to the chase Grumpy and virgindriver stop flirting on the edges. We want examples and war stories dammit!;)


Betcha it DOES (its allright, the supervisor will 'save you' even tho you are a bumbling grommet), and THEIR leadership (ATC - 44Wing) is in Williamtown NOT Canberra.

An App controller with 15+ years continuously talking to aircraft (sectors, outstation towers, Enroute all adds up) in the civil world is the norm. In most TCUs there are those with 15+ in THAT TCU. No-one, I repeat NO-ONE in the RAAF has that time up (OK I know 2) of 15 years continuously 'talking' to aircraft (say 12,000 hours of airtime, (15000 - 3000 hours of talking footy)). RAAFwise, its a quick 2 -3 years in each of 3 - 4 locales, some deployments on a medal hunt (mostly flights service "traffic is" but occasionally separation).

...and then try to pick up the extra half stripe to be a senior officer and run the show at the units. The object of RAAF ATCers is to be headset off and kow towing to Williamtown within 12 years of going to your unit.

PS I learned my trade in blue and have in excess of 15,000 hours of TCU 'time'. I keep a record. You can't expect to be half decent at the job and then tell others how to do it if you haven't the time up (the maydays, Pans, VFR in IMC, yada yada, put a B1900 in a 9 mile 'hole' maintaining 200kias whilst talking footy etc)

Capt Grumpy - anything constructive?
 

In the interests of professional development (although I haven't worked in Townsville since 1996, I still have friends and colleagues there to whom I will gladly pass on any CONSTRUCTIVE criticism as opposed to general whingeing) would you care to be specific?

There are talented vs average controllers everywhere, just as there are vast differences in piloting ability.

I have worked both Darwin and Townsville (yes, the RAAF provides all DAR ATC out to 40nm - even though the bulk of the traffic is civvy) and have yet to work alongside an ATC who deliberately stuffs pilots around. ("Vectoring for controller amusement" being an in-joke rather than a procedure).

There are several common faults:
1) Pilots fly one aircraft at a time, ATCs manage xx number of acft. So each time you feel you are getting faffed around, there's no doubt someone else on freq who's getting a really good run (albeit at your expense). This not only occurs due to ATC ability - other factors include, traffic density, acft performance, weather, terrain etc..

Also, RAAF bases tend to have very little airspace (40nm = about 6-7 minutes from receiving a B737 on freq to handing it off to TWR). The surrounding airspace belongs to ASA and we don't get the benefits of maestro or a dedicated Flow controller. If 2 acft are handed off in such a way that indicates a dead heat to the rwy (as frequently occurred in DN) and I only have 40nm to do something about, then one of them is in for some extra track miles. Without a flow controller, then when APP is busy inside their 40nm, looking out to 100nm to check someone else's airspace to coordinate speed restrictions etc just doesn't happen.

So, although you may feel that you are getting the rough end of the pineapple, you are not the only pilot in the sky, sunshine. If you require priority you are not receiving - feel free to declare the appropriate emergency - otherwise enjoy the view from your window and be glad you have such a great office.

2) It is often true that RAAF bases have a hefty training debt. This is due to our current 3 year posting cycle, which few civil ATC centres have. At the coalface we have long been requesting longer postings and it is being looked into by the brass. Currently it can take 6- 18 months in location to achieve all ratings (APP and TWR) depending on whether the trainee is an experienced ATC from another base or ab initio.

So approx 1/3 of the section at any given time is either new to the area or new to the whole job. Meanwhile, expect it to get worse before it gets better as ASA have finally chosen to "show us the money", recognising experience levels over 5 years so the exit door now appears chocked open.

With appropriate deference to Mr Smith's concilatory comment about those of us at the coal face being hampered by restrictive rules from above, I'd like to point out that military and civil controllers operate by the same rule book - the Manual of Air Traffic Services. While there are definitely different procedures for different operations, the basic separation standards (3nm radar, 1000ft vert, visual sep etc) apply.

Finally - any pilots who are unhappy with the service provided to them should contact the SATCO (Senior Air Traffic Control Officer) at the relevant base to discuss their concerns. (Just look up the base in your local white pages and ask for ATC). It is highly unlikely that things will improve just because you whinge about it on PPRUNE. Let us know your concerns and we'll try to address them. But, please, be specific and professional rather than just pi$$ed off. (Or let us know your callsign so we can REALLY take care of you next time....;))

Thread drift alert!

Dick, I need a couple of double digit $mils to start a new, worthwhile, 100% Oz owned & loyale (to it's Staff, the Industry & Consumer) Airline to take the place of Qantas's shoes... can you spare some $$,$$$,$$$.$$? Just enough for a couple of leased 330's, several 319's and a 340! The fella over at Dubai wont lend it to me :bored:

All in all, that $1bil would of got it (& and the industry) all set up nicely. A shame we wasted it on sardine cans with pull rings as rotors!

Thread back on track + apologies.

I don't think this thread was started to be a whinge-fest. I think it was to show that all areas of aviation are in a bind - RAAF ATC being another one that will effect a lot of customers, civil and military.

I did my 'apprenticeship' with the RAAF and I agree - more time at a base, especially the joint user ones, will mean a better level of corporate knowledge and therefore customer satisfaction (better controllers). And I think it would fix some of the retention issues.

I hope this turns out well for all.

Cheers,

NFR.

RAAFSA,

You have outlined the problem quite nicley.
1) is partially only a sympton.
2) is the problem, along with what I percieve to be the two organisations not working as one unit. If they did the 40nm boundary would not even be an issue, nor should it be.
Unless ASA take over the RAAF ATC function at places like Darwin and Townsville there is little, no there is NO point phoning the SATCO as he/she can do nothing about the poor level of service.
It has taken me 17 yrs of trying to learn that lesson.

Tell me this is a joke. Please.

Errrrr...ahem...most TCUs are 30 -40 miles champ.

40 track miles to run in a jet? 10mins (maybe 9 with a keener in a 717, maybe 11 with jetstar's slowdown to safe fuel thingy). 2 aircraft are a problem? Get No1 to give you 310+ and get No2 to give you 270.

Lucky no one else gets dead heats.:rolleyes: Those procedural fellas at Rocky, Mackay and Maroochy must be killing chickens to make the dark arts work so smoothly (blue chickens for the ex RAAFie controllers at those units).

Maroochy moves more traffic procedurally from the TWR than TVL does with a TCU.

Nurse! Nurse!:ugh::ugh:

I wouldn't mind if Willy was permanently a CTAF(ARRR)...;)

Track coastal
 

"Errrrr...ahem...most TCUs are 30 -40 miles champ."

Well aware of that. The difference is that most TCUs (ie those run by ASA) are also serviced by enroute sectors (also run by ASA) and have the benefit of FLOW control/maestro (also run by ASA). I take my hat off to procedural twr gurus in busy environments, but let's compare granny smiths and golden delicious here - both DN and TL are radar environments.

It often seems to me that inbound acft are "dumped" at the RAAF boundary. If they were subject to FLOW treatment the confliction would have been solved with a minor speed restriction at 80nm instead of a heavy one (or, more likely vectors) inside 40nm.

For example, (at a southern base) we are often handed off an acft at our 40nm boundary and told it has a set course time of XXXXX at 0020 and will probably need some vectors. The XXXXX point is a 40nm IFR reporting/hold point for a capital city airport under ASA control. It is 20nm in from our boundary. So to make it fit we have to give a severe dogleg vector - if the vector were commenced in the enroute sectors airspace the vector could be a much gentler one.

Doesn't bother our military folk much to be flung around the sky, but I think it rather harsh to turn a 737 full of pax 60 degrees for 15nm only to then turn them back again. (I always offer the pilot a holding pattern if they'd prefer and if it's available - but still, pax don't like that whole "oh we're turning around" feeling - I don't when I fly anyway).

I agree that OZ ATC would be a great deal smoother with one ATC provider, however both DN and TL provide outstanding development for RAAF ATCs (and ASA likes us so much more with those ratings in our little blue book!)

Bollocks,

ADATS can see them coming (I'm ex RAAF - SURAD, Siemens Watchman and ADATS) . The designation of a FLOWs is internal management (eg CS does not have Maestro) policy, the utilisation of the whizz/prayer wheel by your flow controller is at management's discretion (betcha most don't know how to use one), again internal. IF you have a FLOW its 44 Wg's decision, but when I was a supervisor, your job was to control by remote - check them out before they are ready and the Sup can't piss or **** just watch these clowns work, if you are lucky you get a good controller that lets you leave tp fill a coffee cup or piss.

Panic at a two way tie on handoff OH NOOOOOOO.:ugh:

270 in a 737 buys you 5 miles. A 10deg kick perp to the field on first contact buys you another 5 (1 in 60 rule). There is 10.

Repeat after me..."Virgin xxx, reduce to 270 knots, turn L/R 10 degrees due sequencing, you are number 5 to land, 45 track miles to run"

I know a few controllers that feed TVL, THEY OFFER a lot of stuff...they shake their head when their unsolicited FLOW is rejected but they do watch the airshow, I bet.

Track coastal,

You obviously have a better understanding of what does or doesn't happen, your comments mirror my perceptions of.
It can be a truely frustrating subject.

DN in the 90s mate (people from around then are at CS, MC, BN, SY, ML, AD, PH, overseas etc etc)

I've always felt that if you ARE going to dick around some pointy thing with people on board, when they call the TWR at around 5 miles, they can SEE who they are following on 1 mile final or the TWR is giving 'get off my runway' instructions to some lightie...it saves the skip calling up enquiring as to the tour they just got. A touch of speed and a strategic 10degs saves an airshow.

The shock and awe at the two tied with 40 to run is amusing...nah *ROFLMAO*

Panic at a two way tie on handoff OH NOOOOOOO.
 

Thank you for your sensationalism - perhaps a journo in previous life?

There is no panic. Even when the 2 way tie is only one sequencing issue out of many (17 acft on freq, including 2x4 ships of F18s - counted as 2, not 8 of the 17 - mixing it with everything from commercial jets to C172s, arrivals, departures and instrument approach training etc). It doesn't make my life any more uncomfortable - just the acft and its pax that have to be significantly vectored, held, reduced etc.

And as far as using small degrees of speed control in such a small airspace - exactly how many track miles do you reckon it takes for a jet to slow from 400+ knots to 270? Even throwing the anchors out, remember your still looking at only 40nm to the threshold - the confliction will occur svereal miles before that and there are other acft to consider as well!) By the time they've reached the 270 they've travelled far enough to cause another confliction.

Things have changed since you deserted the SS RAAFtanic, we no longer rate people with the provision of supervision (normal, normal). Now, when someone is rated it means "here you go, chum, we're short staffed today so you'll be doing supertower with another boggie SMC/PLN". Obviously our roster writers try incredibly hard to avoid this scenario, but it's hard to make a patchwork quilt with half the materials .... and it's gonna get harder real soon!

But the point initally was that this perception that RAAFies deliberately faff civvy acft around or are all basically incompetent is crap. Sure, there are some who believe that we are only allotted a certain number of heartbeats in our lifetime and so are reluctant to work that little bit harder - but you'll find those in any company, occupation or local pub.

The majority are professional, hard working (we don't get paid for our overtime) and trying to provide the best service we can with the tools available (ADATS is crap, bring back IRDS). I've worked for the dark side, too, and I don't think ASA is any better run - I wish you guys all the best for better pay and conditions.

To simply say that TL ATC sucks is neither accurate nor productive. Contact the SATCO, phone, email, write or even visit the controllers to air your concerns, contact your local MP if it suits you better - but provide specifics - date, time, scenario (from your vantage point). If the tapes were pulled you may well see there was a lot of other stuff going on that you were unaware of. Or you may find that you are justified in having your knickers in a knot. Either way, you raise awareness of the issue (yours and/or theirs).:bored:

Most jets descend at around 300, the A320 can give you 340 BUT Jetstar is on a fuel saving thing and prefers 280ish (BA46 stuff). Min clean on the Virgin 700s is around 210, the 320 and QFs old TJs is 220.

If you keep em on the STAR and its hands free, most will take the speed before vectors as long as the aircraft is still clean.

I reckon a couple of old 76 drivers may have pushed 350 hand flying(Keg?) BUT its INDICATED AIRSPEED son...

(When I say 270, its KIAS, even tho he's motoring at 350GS.)

PS If everyone is at 220 you can still do the sudoku :E

Luke, I'm your father (If you like moving aircraft come over mate, as in metal moving* and remember your WGCDRs and GPCAPTs are our old peers).

*metal moving as opposed to pole climbing.

Gotta laugh there TC. I am one of the 90's DN guys and you summed it up nicely!!! RAAF doesn't have the talent pool that they once had and haven't had it since the exodus began back in the mid 90's. As for the honcho's once being our peers - I gotta say that is scary!!

As ex TVL I believe this was a major issue years ago.
Townsville Traffic Management Plan anyone ?
Various RAPAC meetings discussed the problem, but no one took ownership of the responsibility to produce one. Of course with the Mil there were always distractions, and over the years the odd war and war game detachment (primary task?) have often got in the way of creating an effective TMP or allowing any effective follow up to any proposed changes that could have made TVL more effective at what it does. And, leadership and direction were often absent as certain well qualified or higher ranking individuals ( the experienced Sups and Training officers for example) were often spirited away at short notice with no real consideration for the impact on training or the provision of ATC services to Jo Public; at what is advertised as an International Airport.
And in the absence of any proactive flow / sequencing from Brissy, often the only way for the App controller to "cope" when busy, was to rely on the supervisor standing behind him / her directing operations:
"This is The sequence ...this is my Plan ... make it so number 1!"
Often the only way the Sup could do this with any degree of safety and expedition, was to rely on the application of the unwritten rules called "corporate knowledge", and the experience and lessons learned from the successes / misjudgements made over previous years on the customer (hence the complaints within this post). When he moved on, this knowledge and skill set also moved on, thereby distilling further the all round effectiveness of those left behind; as is the case now I understand.
These are not new comments but I understand that with ASA now "gloves off" regarding the hiring of controllers, and staff much higher up the food chain, (acting OC 44 WG for example - good luck M by the way!) this staffing problem within the Mil may have some real Operational, and, dare I say it, potential flight safety issues down the track.
Where to from here anyone?
Should ASA take over all Mil Bases ? After all, and almost uniquely worldwide - same rules, regs, docs and staff in waiting!:ooh:

Good luck to all involved (though Luck shouldnt come into it)

DogGone::hmm:

I could probably start by saying,

1. use correct phraseology, especially the sequence of instructions

2. not giving us more than 3 instructions at once

3. ILS operational but can't descend below 2000 till 6 DME? Still haven't found that NOTAM.

Just off the top of my head.

It begs the question why the hell are Townsville and Darwin still RAAF airports when they have no permanent aircraft based their?
As a former Tops man it was near thing as to who was worse, our AsA procedures t/l's or DN satco's. My favourite was the 11 mile wide corridor 40DN to abm TN one our brainiacs came up with between two restricted airpaces for the major jet routes in and out of Darwin....special :ugh:

It is the same old problem for the military, they do not provide a living wage for ATC's on top of the 3 year posting rotations. I remember once visiting AMB App back in the 90's and the most senior guy there had 18 months at AMB everybody else in cluding the SATC had less than 12 months.

Gents (and Lady),

Let's have a reality check here.

1) The minimum IQ set for entry to RAAF ATC is well above average, meaning that you aren't dealing with dunces, as much as it may come across that way from where you sit. Inexperienced, yes. Dumb, absolutely not. Two of the three most intelligent and calculating individuals I know work in DN (the other is a professor of Astronomy). One or two individuals make me roll my eyes occasionally, but that's life. The fact that so many are poached to work in Civil airports should dispel this myth.

2) DN ATC in the '90's had 72,000-101,000 moves/year (depending on year), in the same zone as it currently has. DNs average MTOW had also risen significantly since then (remember Air North used to fly C210s?), I can't back this part up with stats however. The IFR proportion would likely also have been significantly lower. Any thought that you and your peers were somehow more gifted than the current crop is absolute ****e. Get over yourself. "The older I get, the better I was" springs to mind.

3) RENURPP, I know who you are and I'm quite good with voices. I won't embarrass you by publishing your stuffups over the years - but there's been plently of them. As a start, you have been on board during two level busts in the last few months (hint: think hard about your level assignment at ~28nm as this was the same spot, same level each time). Contrary to your belief, you are not God's gift to Aviation and whilst your attempts to fly 'by the numbers' is admirable, the reality is that your Company peers are generally of a higher standard than yourself. I don't generally discuss this publicly because I think it's offensive to badmouth without being constructive. Obviously you don't share this view.

To reiterate others thoughts, if you have constructive advice, phone the SATCO and ask to possibly review a specific incident with him. All (bar a very few) of the RAAF ATCs I know give it their all every day to ensure you get their best possible service.

A bit of mutual respect would go a long way in this debate. I don't normally post on here, but the disrespect by some of you is intolerable. I won't respond further and I suggest some of you do the same, for the sake of the (original) discussion.

Ahh it's good to things haven't changed TC :rolleyes:

This has got to be one of the biggest thread drifts of all times!

Back to the topic......I know RAAFies are not encouraged to post on the 'prune, but I'm sure there is some interesting news and/or reactions. Feel free to PM me if you want :ok:

How about we all take a step back. If people want to bag ATC/aircrew/management/whatever, start another thread (or get a room:E)

Cheers,

NFR.

Have I missed something Chicken Lips? If you want to spend thirty years talking to aeroplanes you go civ, if you want to be a manager you stay blue (8 - 10 years on the radio and thats it). Simply because as a line ATC in the civ world you are left alone and get paid in excess of a WGCDR (as you should).

I just went to a retirement party where a guy had 36 years on the air. I reckon Binoculars would have 30+ years of seperating and sequencing. You choose that path, as I have. I have no interest in rising above FPC, I like the job. If you choose that path in the RAAF you are frowned upon (eg the 15 year Flight Lieutenant jokes).

Whisk writes a good post. No-one thinks that the RAAFies are stupid or untalented but as Funk says, if your 'corporate knowledge' senior controller in the room has less than 18 months in the unit, what do you expect? We all came from there, and anyways I reckon you should always remember your "roots". :E;)

When we were 'Base Squadrons' our core job was moving aeroplanes at the base. Then we went mother 'wing' and 'tactical' and our core skills went out the window, [y]our core job became getting deployed.

I remember the 'Willy Whips' comments from 13+ years ago - well the Willy execs have all resigned...ship, rudder, heloooo.

44WG (41WG before) has sewn this problem and they can reap it.

Any care to comment on the host of ESOs that went to units on promotion and couldn't get rated (some were 'golden' and had a constant beam pointing at the floor from their sphincter ani on the tip of their spinal column - from their 'tactical ATC' superiority)?

PS DN in the 90s moved well excess of 110,000 moves pa (I remember a 120). The issue with replacing 2 PA31s and 2 C210s with one E120 on the same route is no potential sep loss between the daisy chain of 4 from TN or Maningrida. Easier on the licence.

PPS So how does providing an ATC service (sometimes a Flight Info Service) in a JAO (a far flung ****hole) with the USA (whom have dedicated units awaiting and trained to do such) help or develop our core ATC skills? You reap what you sew.

...and Chicken Lips, you were a damn good operator and LIKED moving aeroplanes, you should have come over (and maybe you still can).

Get used to CTAF
 

Some of you people out there are absolute tossers. Get over yourselves. The thread was about the same old story. RAAF can't keep their people because they treat them like crap, stuff their families around and flog them until they have had enough. Some of you bitch and complain about them, yet do nothing except whinge, whilst these kids in Blue are prepared to put their life on the line so you can stay at home and bitch about them. Tosser's, you know who you are.

Every couple of years ASA comes along, after yet another failed attempt at a national ATC plan, offering heaps of extra dollars and people leave the RAAF. Thats life, its called supply and demand. No different to Virgin, Qantas etc recruiting from REX or other regionals. RAAF tries to train more with their crap budgets and as soon as ASA crap on their people, who subsequently head OS, RAAF loses more staff. Its nothing more than a big merry go round, except this time the merry go round is broken. ASA and RAAF can't attract enough new kids to the job because they get treated like crap and aren't interested in this sort of career anymore. BS on forums attacking people doesn't help. Most of those Blue ATC's have buggar all time up. Get off their backs, remember when you learn't to fly or the first time you had to vector several acft. :=

Here is some history for you.

In 2003, ASA and defence came up with the Intergrated Operating Concept (IOC) at great expense to ASA. They spent heaps on it and defence eventually rejected it, due cost to the tax payers. ASA said gloves off and recruited 14 RAAF ATC's. Back to the drawing board again.

2005 and project Genesis dawns and a new era for Aust. ATC begins. Pearce App from Perth TMA using Taaats and the relocation of DN and TVL approach etc to Brisbane centre again using Taaats (I can feel maestro and TMP's coming on). What happens, it all turns to **** and Defence pulls the plug again because ASA wants to charge Defence millions to provide the service. I say Defence because RAAF ATC got told what to do by the government. By the way RAAF ATC is actually controlled by RAAF PILOTS. Another point, The Manual of Air Traffic Services MATS, is a joint document and again signed off by another RAAF PILOT. The ATC's at the coalface are applying rules approved by pilots.

What I find funny is that both department of defence and transport are owned by the same government but a national ATC plan can't get sorted out. After all, we are only talking about 1200 ATC's around the country but it all seems to hard.

Whisk01 mentioned "mutual respect". When was the last time you went to visit an ATC section aircrew or when did you ATC's go flying ? Learn what each other does and show some respect. Share your knowledge. Remember that someone taught you, what you know. Don't moan and bitch about how bad it is, write to your federal members, what about AOPA. Do something positive.

If you choose to keep on whining and do nothing, you better get used to TIBA and CTAF boys (and girls) because soon there wont be anyone on the other end of those radios.

C-change... nice work.

I hear there is a new GPCAT in Mr B but, I fear the horse may have bolted

Having said that shouldn't virgindriver, RENURPPand Capt Grumpy expect a quality service?

Well written, Whisk (who would never blow his own trumpet but is an extremely gifted, as well as hard working, controller).

Should pilots expect a quality service? Absolutely. And if there were more communication between pilots and ATC about any issues that arise (rather than pointless, vague whinging) then no doubt the service would continually evolve.

ATC is not a job where you unplug one day and say "well, that's it, I'm now perfect". There is always room for improvement, always another way to "skin the cat" and most of us drive home replaying sequences and wondering what we could have done differently to achieve a better outcome all round.

Not all RAAFies stay blue because they want to end up driving a desk. Some of us are happy to stay line controllers because we like talking to aircraft! And having tried the grass on the other side of the fence - some of us prefer the RAAF as an employer (hard to believe, I know). For me ASA has only 2 advantages over the RAAF - location stability and the fact that they pay you for the $hit they make you do - O/T, prof development, shiftwork etc (a Darwin ATCO working 24/7 gets paid the same as a Sale ATCO working basically office hours - and they even took ERL of us for a while in the mid-naughties!).

There comes a time when those 2 advantages (particularly the location stability) become increasingly important (kids at school, parents ageing, sick of unpacking boxes etc) to most RAAFies and so when ASA dangle a nice carrot (like the current offers) there is a huge rush to jump ship.

Why do we persist with RAAF control at Darwin and Townsville - 1stly because ASA don't want them - not enough profit apparently. 2ndly because they are fantastic training grounds (even if we do lose 2 out of every 3 controllers eventually to ASA) and are part of the reason Aussie military ATCOs are held in such high regard overseas.

Project Genesis would have greatly improved both the service provided and RAAF retention by addressing the location aspect - I'd be happy to do Darwin APP from Brissie till retirement - as would most of our workforce - Brisbane being the most desired location (closely followed by Willy apparently).

As to the current ASA-RAAF poaching. I've heard the same figures (17 that I know by name). Don't know how many have accepted, but the offer was good enough to make me visit the ASA application page myself (never say never....) so I imagine most, if not all, will take it (be mad not to really).

The Willy execs are not part of the ASA recruitment from what I've heard (although I believe the acting OC is taking up an ASA job - not line controlling).

44WG HQ have not yet reacted - I guess they're waiting for actual resignations to hit their desks before assessing the damage. Bit disappointing really as it would be nice to know what the plan is? They know that we know and all that - rumour mill being what it is - so why not put something out there to reassure those of us who are staying behind to switch off the lights? (Everyone click your heels together and wish "Genesis, Genesis, Genesis").

Maybe this will be the catalyst for moving to a single ATS provider model (although we though that in 94 as well.....):hmm:

I doubt it. Project Genesis fell apart due to financial and "operational" reasons. It's unlikely that Defence will bother trying this again any time in the near future. Seems ludicrous since both AsA and Defence ATC are all employed by the same federal govt, albeit from different buckets of money.

Then again, with a new federal govt (voted in after Genesis called off) anything's possible!

Also curious to know what & where the offers have been.