RAAF ATC Staffing Levels
Thread Starter
RAAF ATC Staffing Levels
G'day all,
A little birdie tells me that at the end of last week, somewhere between 15 and 20 RAAF ATCs resigned. Most are headed to other providers. This represents around 10% of the ATC category (my guess). That kind of percentage would hurt any organisation.
I am also lead to believe it is not just disgruntled bograts - people in higher positions are also headed for other (not necessarily greener) pastures.
This week will be a very interesting one for the category. I wonder what band-aid practice the RAAF will implement this time? After all, we can't have blunts being paid more than aircrew now, can we.......?
It looks like ATC shortages worldwide are effecting all providers.
Good luck, whatever side of the fence you are on. SATC - start to ramp up!
Sayonara,
Showa Cho.
A little birdie tells me that at the end of last week, somewhere between 15 and 20 RAAF ATCs resigned. Most are headed to other providers. This represents around 10% of the ATC category (my guess). That kind of percentage would hurt any organisation.
I am also lead to believe it is not just disgruntled bograts - people in higher positions are also headed for other (not necessarily greener) pastures.
This week will be a very interesting one for the category. I wonder what band-aid practice the RAAF will implement this time? After all, we can't have blunts being paid more than aircrew now, can we.......?
It looks like ATC shortages worldwide are effecting all providers.
Good luck, whatever side of the fence you are on. SATC - start to ramp up!
Sayonara,
Showa Cho.
Nunc est bibendum
I know of two WGCDR ATCO's who have resigned in the last month. Hope they've found greener pastures. It's great for colleagues of mine who may not be promoted into great gigs because of it. 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Qld now and then
Age: 72
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wouldn't mind if the departures mostly came from Townsville.
We can only live in hope. Townsville is without a doubt the most incompetent bunch in the country. They seem to be able to find new ways to delay and generally fcuk you around on a daily basis
Mind you I base this assessment on being the only military controlled airport I fly into. Perhaps other RAAF aerodromes are worse (I shudder to think).
In my short experience in the Top End, I have found the controllers at RAAF Tindal great, in particular, there is often one with a South African accent who is always brilliant. Darwin is also good, although I'm not sure if the controllers there are civ/mil.
Virgindriver and Capt.Grumpy, please don’t blame the individual controllers. I think you will find that it is the leadership. The RAAF is using some of the most archaic rules in history – more suited to British Colonial India than Australia in the 21st century. This is the type of leadership which resulted in $1 billion being lost on the Seasprite helicopter project.
Our military air traffic controllers in Townsville and all around Australia are totally let down by the people in Canberra who should be showing the proper leadership.
By the way, there is now a $50,000 award for the best investigative article on the Super Seasprite fiasco – see here.
Our military air traffic controllers in Townsville and all around Australia are totally let down by the people in Canberra who should be showing the proper leadership.
By the way, there is now a $50,000 award for the best investigative article on the Super Seasprite fiasco – see here.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Qld now and then
Age: 72
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NO Dick, I am in and out of the place two or three times a week and the individual controllers just can't cut the mustard. It has nothing to do with their leadership or Canberra.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: All over the place
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cut to the chase Grumpy and virgindriver stop flirting on the edges. We want examples and war stories dammit!
Betcha it DOES (its allright, the supervisor will 'save you' even tho you are a bumbling grommet), and THEIR leadership (ATC - 44Wing) is in Williamtown NOT Canberra.
An App controller with 15+ years continuously talking to aircraft (sectors, outstation towers, Enroute all adds up) in the civil world is the norm. In most TCUs there are those with 15+ in THAT TCU. No-one, I repeat NO-ONE in the RAAF has that time up (OK I know 2) of 15 years continuously 'talking' to aircraft (say 12,000 hours of airtime, (15000 - 3000 hours of talking footy)). RAAFwise, its a quick 2 -3 years in each of 3 - 4 locales, some deployments on a medal hunt (mostly flights service "traffic is" but occasionally separation).
...and then try to pick up the extra half stripe to be a senior officer and run the show at the units. The object of RAAF ATCers is to be headset off and kow towing to Williamtown within 12 years of going to your unit.
PS I learned my trade in blue and have in excess of 15,000 hours of TCU 'time'. I keep a record. You can't expect to be half decent at the job and then tell others how to do it if you haven't the time up (the maydays, Pans, VFR in IMC, yada yada, put a B1900 in a 9 mile 'hole' maintaining 200kias whilst talking footy etc)
It has nothing to do with their leadership
An App controller with 15+ years continuously talking to aircraft (sectors, outstation towers, Enroute all adds up) in the civil world is the norm. In most TCUs there are those with 15+ in THAT TCU. No-one, I repeat NO-ONE in the RAAF has that time up (OK I know 2) of 15 years continuously 'talking' to aircraft (say 12,000 hours of airtime, (15000 - 3000 hours of talking footy)). RAAFwise, its a quick 2 -3 years in each of 3 - 4 locales, some deployments on a medal hunt (mostly flights service "traffic is" but occasionally separation).
...and then try to pick up the extra half stripe to be a senior officer and run the show at the units. The object of RAAF ATCers is to be headset off and kow towing to Williamtown within 12 years of going to your unit.
PS I learned my trade in blue and have in excess of 15,000 hours of TCU 'time'. I keep a record. You can't expect to be half decent at the job and then tell others how to do it if you haven't the time up (the maydays, Pans, VFR in IMC, yada yada, put a B1900 in a 9 mile 'hole' maintaining 200kias whilst talking footy etc)
Last edited by Track Coastal; 23rd Jun 2008 at 05:02.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Capt Grumpy - anything constructive?
In the interests of professional development (although I haven't worked in Townsville since 1996, I still have friends and colleagues there to whom I will gladly pass on any CONSTRUCTIVE criticism as opposed to general whingeing) would you care to be specific?
There are talented vs average controllers everywhere, just as there are vast differences in piloting ability.
I have worked both Darwin and Townsville (yes, the RAAF provides all DAR ATC out to 40nm - even though the bulk of the traffic is civvy) and have yet to work alongside an ATC who deliberately stuffs pilots around. ("Vectoring for controller amusement" being an in-joke rather than a procedure).
There are several common faults:
1) Pilots fly one aircraft at a time, ATCs manage xx number of acft. So each time you feel you are getting faffed around, there's no doubt someone else on freq who's getting a really good run (albeit at your expense). This not only occurs due to ATC ability - other factors include, traffic density, acft performance, weather, terrain etc..
Also, RAAF bases tend to have very little airspace (40nm = about 6-7 minutes from receiving a B737 on freq to handing it off to TWR). The surrounding airspace belongs to ASA and we don't get the benefits of maestro or a dedicated Flow controller. If 2 acft are handed off in such a way that indicates a dead heat to the rwy (as frequently occurred in DN) and I only have 40nm to do something about, then one of them is in for some extra track miles. Without a flow controller, then when APP is busy inside their 40nm, looking out to 100nm to check someone else's airspace to coordinate speed restrictions etc just doesn't happen.
So, although you may feel that you are getting the rough end of the pineapple, you are not the only pilot in the sky, sunshine. If you require priority you are not receiving - feel free to declare the appropriate emergency - otherwise enjoy the view from your window and be glad you have such a great office.
2) It is often true that RAAF bases have a hefty training debt. This is due to our current 3 year posting cycle, which few civil ATC centres have. At the coalface we have long been requesting longer postings and it is being looked into by the brass. Currently it can take 6- 18 months in location to achieve all ratings (APP and TWR) depending on whether the trainee is an experienced ATC from another base or ab initio.
So approx 1/3 of the section at any given time is either new to the area or new to the whole job. Meanwhile, expect it to get worse before it gets better as ASA have finally chosen to "show us the money", recognising experience levels over 5 years so the exit door now appears chocked open.
With appropriate deference to Mr Smith's concilatory comment about those of us at the coal face being hampered by restrictive rules from above, I'd like to point out that military and civil controllers operate by the same rule book - the Manual of Air Traffic Services. While there are definitely different procedures for different operations, the basic separation standards (3nm radar, 1000ft vert, visual sep etc) apply.
Finally - any pilots who are unhappy with the service provided to them should contact the SATCO (Senior Air Traffic Control Officer) at the relevant base to discuss their concerns. (Just look up the base in your local white pages and ask for ATC). It is highly unlikely that things will improve just because you whinge about it on PPRUNE. Let us know your concerns and we'll try to address them. But, please, be specific and professional rather than just pi$$ed off. (Or let us know your callsign so we can REALLY take care of you next time....)
There are talented vs average controllers everywhere, just as there are vast differences in piloting ability.
I have worked both Darwin and Townsville (yes, the RAAF provides all DAR ATC out to 40nm - even though the bulk of the traffic is civvy) and have yet to work alongside an ATC who deliberately stuffs pilots around. ("Vectoring for controller amusement" being an in-joke rather than a procedure).
There are several common faults:
1) Pilots fly one aircraft at a time, ATCs manage xx number of acft. So each time you feel you are getting faffed around, there's no doubt someone else on freq who's getting a really good run (albeit at your expense). This not only occurs due to ATC ability - other factors include, traffic density, acft performance, weather, terrain etc..
Also, RAAF bases tend to have very little airspace (40nm = about 6-7 minutes from receiving a B737 on freq to handing it off to TWR). The surrounding airspace belongs to ASA and we don't get the benefits of maestro or a dedicated Flow controller. If 2 acft are handed off in such a way that indicates a dead heat to the rwy (as frequently occurred in DN) and I only have 40nm to do something about, then one of them is in for some extra track miles. Without a flow controller, then when APP is busy inside their 40nm, looking out to 100nm to check someone else's airspace to coordinate speed restrictions etc just doesn't happen.
So, although you may feel that you are getting the rough end of the pineapple, you are not the only pilot in the sky, sunshine. If you require priority you are not receiving - feel free to declare the appropriate emergency - otherwise enjoy the view from your window and be glad you have such a great office.
2) It is often true that RAAF bases have a hefty training debt. This is due to our current 3 year posting cycle, which few civil ATC centres have. At the coalface we have long been requesting longer postings and it is being looked into by the brass. Currently it can take 6- 18 months in location to achieve all ratings (APP and TWR) depending on whether the trainee is an experienced ATC from another base or ab initio.
So approx 1/3 of the section at any given time is either new to the area or new to the whole job. Meanwhile, expect it to get worse before it gets better as ASA have finally chosen to "show us the money", recognising experience levels over 5 years so the exit door now appears chocked open.
With appropriate deference to Mr Smith's concilatory comment about those of us at the coal face being hampered by restrictive rules from above, I'd like to point out that military and civil controllers operate by the same rule book - the Manual of Air Traffic Services. While there are definitely different procedures for different operations, the basic separation standards (3nm radar, 1000ft vert, visual sep etc) apply.
Finally - any pilots who are unhappy with the service provided to them should contact the SATCO (Senior Air Traffic Control Officer) at the relevant base to discuss their concerns. (Just look up the base in your local white pages and ask for ATC). It is highly unlikely that things will improve just because you whinge about it on PPRUNE. Let us know your concerns and we'll try to address them. But, please, be specific and professional rather than just pi$$ed off. (Or let us know your callsign so we can REALLY take care of you next time....
)
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Australia.
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Dick Smith
By the way, there is now a $50,000 award for the best investigative article on the Super Seasprite fiasco – see here.
Dick, I need a couple of double digit $mils to start a new, worthwhile, 100% Oz owned & loyale (to it's Staff, the Industry & Consumer) Airline to take the place of Qantas's shoes... can you spare some $$,$$$,$$$.$$? Just enough for a couple of leased 330's, several 319's and a 340! The fella over at Dubai wont lend it to me
All in all, that $1bil would of got it (& and the industry) all set up nicely. A shame we wasted it on sardine cans with pull rings as rotors!
Thread back on track + apologies.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: UAE
Age: 48
Posts: 447
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think this thread was started to be a whinge-fest. I think it was to show that all areas of aviation are in a bind - RAAF ATC being another one that will effect a lot of customers, civil and military.
I did my 'apprenticeship' with the RAAF and I agree - more time at a base, especially the joint user ones, will mean a better level of corporate knowledge and therefore customer satisfaction (better controllers). And I think it would fix some of the retention issues.
I hope this turns out well for all.
Cheers,
NFR.
I did my 'apprenticeship' with the RAAF and I agree - more time at a base, especially the joint user ones, will mean a better level of corporate knowledge and therefore customer satisfaction (better controllers). And I think it would fix some of the retention issues.
I hope this turns out well for all.
Cheers,
NFR.
RAAFSA,
You have outlined the problem quite nicley.
1) is partially only a sympton.
2) is the problem, along with what I percieve to be the two organisations not working as one unit. If they did the 40nm boundary would not even be an issue, nor should it be.
Unless ASA take over the RAAF ATC function at places like Darwin and Townsville there is little, no there is NO point phoning the SATCO as he/she can do nothing about the poor level of service.
It has taken me 17 yrs of trying to learn that lesson.
You have outlined the problem quite nicley.
1) is partially only a sympton.
Also, RAAF bases tend to have very little airspace (40nm = about 6-7 minutes from receiving a B737 on freq to handing it off to TWR). The surrounding airspace belongs to ASA and we don't get the benefits of maestro or a dedicated Flow controller. If 2 acft are handed off in such a way that indicates a dead heat to the rwy (as frequently occurred in DN) and I only have 40nm to do something about, then one of them is in for some extra track miles. Without a flow controller, then when APP is busy inside their 40nm, looking out to 100nm to check someone else's airspace to coordinate speed restrictions etc just doesn't happen.
Unless ASA take over the RAAF ATC function at places like Darwin and Townsville there is little, no there is NO point phoning the SATCO as he/she can do nothing about the poor level of service.
It has taken me 17 yrs of trying to learn that lesson.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: All over the place
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Also, RAAF bases tend to have very little airspace (40nm = about 6-7 minutes from receiving a B737 on freq to handing it off to TWR). The surrounding airspace belongs to ASA and we don't get the benefits of maestro or a dedicated Flow controller. If 2 acft are handed off in such a way that indicates a dead heat to the rwy (as frequently occurred in DN) and I only have 40nm to do something about, then one of them is in for some extra track miles. Without a flow controller, then when APP is busy inside their 40nm, looking out to 100nm to check someone else's airspace to coordinate speed restrictions etc just doesn't happen.
Errrrr...ahem...most TCUs are 30 -40 miles champ.
40 track miles to run in a jet? 10mins (maybe 9 with a keener in a 717, maybe 11 with jetstar's slowdown to safe fuel thingy). 2 aircraft are a problem? Get No1 to give you 310+ and get No2 to give you 270.
If 2 acft are handed off in such a way that indicates a dead heat to the rwy (as frequently occurred in DN
Those procedural fellas at Rocky, Mackay and Maroochy must be killing chickens to make the dark arts work so smoothly (blue chickens for the ex RAAFie controllers at those units). Maroochy moves more traffic procedurally from the TWR than TVL does with a TCU.
Nurse! Nurse!
Last edited by Track Coastal; 23rd Jun 2008 at 08:53.
Sprucegoose
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Hughes Point, where life is great! Was also resident on page 13, but now I'm lost in Cyberspace....
Age: 59
Posts: 3,485
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I wouldn't mind if the departures mostly came from Townsville.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Track coastal
"Errrrr...ahem...most TCUs are 30 -40 miles champ."
Well aware of that. The difference is that most TCUs (ie those run by ASA) are also serviced by enroute sectors (also run by ASA) and have the benefit of FLOW control/maestro (also run by ASA). I take my hat off to procedural twr gurus in busy environments, but let's compare granny smiths and golden delicious here - both DN and TL are radar environments.
It often seems to me that inbound acft are "dumped" at the RAAF boundary. If they were subject to FLOW treatment the confliction would have been solved with a minor speed restriction at 80nm instead of a heavy one (or, more likely vectors) inside 40nm.
For example, (at a southern base) we are often handed off an acft at our 40nm boundary and told it has a set course time of XXXXX at 0020 and will probably need some vectors. The XXXXX point is a 40nm IFR reporting/hold point for a capital city airport under ASA control. It is 20nm in from our boundary. So to make it fit we have to give a severe dogleg vector - if the vector were commenced in the enroute sectors airspace the vector could be a much gentler one.
Doesn't bother our military folk much to be flung around the sky, but I think it rather harsh to turn a 737 full of pax 60 degrees for 15nm only to then turn them back again. (I always offer the pilot a holding pattern if they'd prefer and if it's available - but still, pax don't like that whole "oh we're turning around" feeling - I don't when I fly anyway).
I agree that OZ ATC would be a great deal smoother with one ATC provider, however both DN and TL provide outstanding development for RAAF ATCs (and ASA likes us so much more with those ratings in our little blue book!)
Well aware of that. The difference is that most TCUs (ie those run by ASA) are also serviced by enroute sectors (also run by ASA) and have the benefit of FLOW control/maestro (also run by ASA). I take my hat off to procedural twr gurus in busy environments, but let's compare granny smiths and golden delicious here - both DN and TL are radar environments.
It often seems to me that inbound acft are "dumped" at the RAAF boundary. If they were subject to FLOW treatment the confliction would have been solved with a minor speed restriction at 80nm instead of a heavy one (or, more likely vectors) inside 40nm.
For example, (at a southern base) we are often handed off an acft at our 40nm boundary and told it has a set course time of XXXXX at 0020 and will probably need some vectors. The XXXXX point is a 40nm IFR reporting/hold point for a capital city airport under ASA control. It is 20nm in from our boundary. So to make it fit we have to give a severe dogleg vector - if the vector were commenced in the enroute sectors airspace the vector could be a much gentler one.
Doesn't bother our military folk much to be flung around the sky, but I think it rather harsh to turn a 737 full of pax 60 degrees for 15nm only to then turn them back again. (I always offer the pilot a holding pattern if they'd prefer and if it's available - but still, pax don't like that whole "oh we're turning around" feeling - I don't when I fly anyway).
I agree that OZ ATC would be a great deal smoother with one ATC provider, however both DN and TL provide outstanding development for RAAF ATCs (and ASA likes us so much more with those ratings in our little blue book!)