Merged: 457 Visa
 

ok, time to keep it civil and nice like:ok:

Lets bring it on chaps.......................


And don't lock the thread Tid

Let me be as succint as I possibly can Tidbinbilla:

As an Aussie working O/S for a Legecy carrier ( cx ) I have no intention of coming back to work for an Aussie airline, ever

I took my skills overseas after 1989 to keep in a job. My skills were required because they couldn't get any locals to do the work, FULL STOP, end of story. I'm still here

I TOTALLY object to Non- Aussies being GIVEN 457 Visa's or other such things to come to MY country and TAKE MY FAMILY AND FRIENDS jobs.

there is absolutley no evidence that there is a shortage of SKILLED PILOT's in Aussie to do the job. YOU KNOW IT, WE KNOW IT

so to all those foreign Pilot's just champing at the bit to TAKE A job from my family and Friends I say................NO WAY

Get a Visa FIRST................come to Aussie.............THEN APPLY.

It's a very fair system if you care to use it.

Care to use it?

or do you want to short cut the system instead?

Sorry Mate - had enough of you in the last thread regarding 457 Visas! :mad:

And I don't think Tids needs your advice on Moderating threads in Dunnunda! :yuk:

Not that you can see either this thread or my post! :}

Tail Wheel

WHAT?

You must be kidding us TID

This is an extremely important subject effecting ALL Aussie Pilots and probably you and you sweep it under the carpet?

YOU WILL HAVE TO GIVE A BETTER REASON THAN THAT FOR BANNING ACMS.

90% of us agree with him.

What happened to freedom of speech and truth in Aviation hey?

Oh, dear........... Siamese Twins!!!!! :mad:

Tail Wheel

yes that right it me.............

you still haven't given a reason for banning me??????????

still waiting Tid man

Neither of the Siamese Twins, ACMS or GE90115BL2 are banned but are, for the present, excluded from this thread.

Tail Wheel

Good call moderators . . . thanks!

ACMS

Amateur's!

Why bother with them, it seems?

It does not seem fair to restrict valid arguments because you don't happen to agree. In fact to not have a good blue once in a while with a mate might seem somewhat, "unAustralian".

There's too much banning going on. This isn't the same PPrune it used to be. Are you all scared of lawyers?

I actually agree with the 457s in principle, but where are they going to come from...

I have friends that are qualified (large quantities of jet time) and are in oz that are trying to get into one star. They cannot get a look in either through colllusion by the airlines or some other event that occured some years ago.

Either way, there are people here that can do the job, how does the govt justify the automatic giving of visas when all the resources have not been exhausted? It was only a few short months ago the airlines were denying there was a shortage, now they have cried poor and the govt have knee jerked without any research or justification and given them what they want.

There is also one undeniable fact, for 10 years (probably more but lets say 10) no airline has spent any more money on training than they legislatively had to. Now as the old grey mare is making her way slowly out the gate, the airlines move to shut it, by opening tin pot academies that are in more sh!t than a Werribee duck, MPLs and cadet programs that wont bear fruit for years.

The mining sector have realised that to get quality people they have to pay top money. How many 457 visas have the mining industry requested for their basic operations? None because they still get people by paying the right money.

Groups such as AIPA and AFAP should be putting the same amount of pressure on the govt as the airlines are and trying to stop what has already started.

PAF.
I think that the article quoted actually reinforces ASMS' argument. It describes REX's shortage as due to pilots LEAVING. So they used to have enough pilots, yet the question of WHY they are leaving or WHY they cant attract replacements is studiously ignored?

You continually quote dry economic theory which,, I am sure, most readers here can see through. As T&Cs have fallen to the point where a career as a pilot is not seen as desirable anymore, the result (according to your own arguments) is that T&Cs should rise until the supply and demand is balanced. What is actually happening (and this is where the real world infringes on theory) is that an attempt is being made to use 457 visas (or whatever version they are particularly called in this case) to manipulate the supply side of labour by increasing the labour pool using said visas. If you cannot see the problem with that, then further discussion is pointless.

For Kangaroo Court; if you use 457 visas to cherry pick which parts of the labour market you will manipulate, those particular professions suffer manipulation that distorts the market forces which operate in them. ie. Pilot T&Cs are artificially suppressed at the expense of aspiring/existing pilots for the gain of foreign nationals wanting to change their address (a non-economic gain). IMHO, that only exacerbates the problem, perpetuating the barriers to entry of that profession for Australians, and fails to address the cause (a symptomal solution). Ultimately, detrimental to the country on a number of levels- not the least of which is the delaying of the correction in ticket pricing (which must come sooner or later- maybe PAF can tell us why, although with the selectivity applied to theorical argument, I am not so sure).

I like your agrument also...

I don't think there are many immigrant pilots to be had with a worldwide shortage though. I am working overseas right now and we can't seem to find the "right" people either.

That is a big part of the problem with the way these visa are being used- you WILL attract pilots, but not on economic grounds. South Africans, for example, will avail themselves of the opportunity for reasons that have nothing to do with economics, thus pure economics is not at play. The real world is like that, hey PAF?

It has to be remembered that QANTASLink will want pilots that will fit into their operation smoothly and they will set their requirements accordingly going to great lengths to avoid being accused of discrimination. Simply because there is an Australian pilot with a CPL and 500 hours of bush flying doesn't mean that they have to take this lad ahead of a 457 with relevant type and weight and hours experience who fits the advertisement. I think that our two banned colleagues were suggesting that the Australian CPL should get first crack at the job, even if not qualified, very unrealistic.

The basis of the problem that we face is inadequate management from past and present Government's at both Federal and State levels.

The shortage we face not only in pilots but other skills as well shows a serious lack of forward planning.

An insurance assessor on Thursday told me that within 5 years there will not be enough Panel and Smash repairs to do the work that is required in Australia.There is also a huge shortage of diesel mechanics not to mention Doctors,nurses etc.

Bringing people in on a 457 visa to work may be a short term solution to our problem but it is not the long term answer.

If we continue this way within 20 years Australia will not be able to produce anything more sophisticated than a toasted sandwich from the corner shop.

We will be a nation of consumers

This country is in a lot of trouble aviation wise (otherwise as well) it's so obvious & we all pretty much know it so I would suggest (& this is just my opinion only) whilst we self destruct that everyone hang onto what job they have & dig in, I feel we ain't seen the real effects of this total 'swept under the carpet' problem. The likes of ACMS although very direct is just an Eg. of how some pilots feel, no more no less.
The allowance of 'imports' by this Govt thru commercial pressure (the ones that own the Pollies) has effectively ruined many an industry in Oz (fruit for one) & i feel that we are heading down the same track now in our very fragile industry. Remember the likes of GD & the senior Pollies have nothing to fear their approaching the end of their careers (if where lucky), it's the ugly legacy left behind we must flounder in for many years yet.

And no I don't have an answer to all this and nobody else in here has shown likewise either, if I did have the answer I'd be richer the 'tricky dicky' !:bored:

Just my opinion obvioulsy


CW

p.s..'dodgybrothers'.....couldn't agree more with yr post, I know a few too that simply can't get in to the airlines and are currently flying very responsible jobs, yep there is no pilot shortage just a shortage of forsight!

PAF. You are very adept at avoiding the reality that pilot T&Cs must rise.

If, as you say, it's a people shortage driving this issue, why then not bring in lots more people. Not PILOTS on 457 visas, just more PEOPLE? People with/without skills who can fill jobs at the 'bottom of the market'.

If there is no skills crisis, just bring in immigrants, full stop. There should be no need for 457 visas, as the market will function and provide T&Cs that will attract the right applicants at the bottom of the aviation industry (or even at a level commensurate with modern thinking ie directly into jet cockpits).

Frozo,
This is not about protectionism. If any pilot wants to secure residency or become an Australian citizen and have legal right to work in this country then they are completely free to apply and jump through all the hoops like everyone else. Spare us the first year neo classical economic drivel. Why should airlines be able to import type rated foreigners just so they can save a few bucks on training their existing workforce? There are plenty of Autralian pilots here and overseas to fill any positions.

Parabellum,
If there are no 457 visas they will. Either that or employ one of the more experienced Aussies trying to get a look in. Non sibi sed suis.
Qantaslink would solve all their crew problems and save themselves buckets of cash if they provided a career path into mainline. Sorry mate but you reek of skygod syndrome. Howzat for provocation?

Moderators,
If you are going to ban anyone it should be Frozo. He claims to be a pilot by occupation yet clearly is not. 2000 posts from a walter mitty without a life is more than enough.

Like all statistics the unemployment figure such as today's of around 4% does not show the entire picture but is one that politicians love to boast about.
You can bend anything to your way of spin if you want to.Is the government helping by education and other means to put Australians in the jobs that matter or that they really want.

A friend of mine who lives in NSW has a boy that wants to be a diesel mechanic.His son has to travel something like 400 km's to go to TAFE,spend a week or two then travel 400 km's back home to work where his apprenticeship is located.

He does not live out the back of Bourke but on the coast not far from the Queensland border not far from major regional centres.It is insane that there is no TAFE college closer than that.However,cost cutting from successive governments have put paid to that.

Perhaps it is also time we look at the financial requirments for Uni both from the students side and of the uni's operational side.The uni's are allowing students to have a lower HSC pass mark if they pay up front because they need the money and then cashed up overseas students grab a spot that could have gone to an Australian.

Population does have an impact but education and Government assistance has a bigger impact.With Australian airlines sending aircraft overseas for anything from maintenance to a spray of paint it is not difficult to see the demand for trades and skilled people in Australia diminishing.

The 457 Visa solution is short term but another approach is needed for the longer term.

PAF,maybe another solution is to encourage people to have more children if we have a people shortage.

Other countries look 20 years or more down the track but all our politicians seem to do is look no further than the next election.

..........................Other countries look 20 years or more down the track but all our politicians seem to do is look no further than the next election.


That is so true 'RedTBar' Well said.

We Australians are clever people & passionate but we need strong leadership in all area's of social & economic structure, that takes time & foresight to put into place & complete. Probably longer than any one Govt would be in power for. For this country to be prosperous we will have to hurt, hurt a lot more tha we are now I believe.



CW

Why do you guys/gals even bother responding to Frozo (Troll IMHO)

I can not see how wanting Australian Pilot jobs to go to Australian Pilots is such an issue.

If these Aviation companies are trying to fight presenting sustainable market rate packages to qualified Australians, stuff em, let them go broke.

Where has ones sense of national pride gone ?, we should not under any circumstance be importing skilled labour into Australia whilst ever there is a willing and able Australian ( by birth or immigration ) to do the job.

Same should go for foreign aid, why should we send our money overseas in the form of foriegn aid when Australians are sleeping on the street.

A few years back I was on the EBA committee for a National company.

The company's operation had been having difficulties securing new pilots due to pay and conditions, so to help retain and secure new pilots we submitted a pay claim.

The result, company imported pilots who wanted to gain Australian Visa's and the pilot group got screwed over.

I don't have a problem with importing labour if they do it for the same money and it doesn't impinge on the pay and conditions of current employees.

I think the government should freeze company 457 applications if that company is undergoing EBA negs.

Frozo, as an 'economist', you make a really good military pilot.:D

I'll say it again - life on civvy street is going to be a real eye opener for you.:ugh:

PAF - you sound like an academic. Chock full of theory - of no practical use. Get rid of your military blankie.

I agree Capt. Wally - the Summit 2020 is barely the future. Blink and we're there. I'd be more inclined to go for the 2050 or 2100 Summit - more time to discuss what to talk about.

That explains everything!

Frozo,
Simple classical theory is only one very narrow way to look at the labour market. There is also large bodies of work on human relations, industrial democracy, judicial and statutory determinism, technological determinism, bargaining and importantly distribution of power and conflict resolution. You can check out Marxist theory on the labour market, he had a few ideas too. :}

Okay, before this thread crashes and burns, I'll give up being subtle and state the obvious:

A large part of the community made it clear recently that putting up with reduced pay & conditions in the name of "shareholder value" should not be a national goal.

Too often Australians, maybe because we don't have a feverish nationalism, accept the practices of other countries, whilst pretending there is such a thing as a "level playing field".

Sure, other countries will, at times, beg for Australians to join their workforce ... and at other times, or in other countries, Australians won't be given the time of day.

But that doesn't mean we can't employ fully qualified Australians first - especially when the only reason he's not getting a look-in is that he wants at least a slight semblance of fairness, and perhaps the maintenance of decent conditions.

I've seen it in other professions too... open the floodgates, the shareholders love it for the short term ... then, the inevitable overcapacity and plunging conditions.

{You'll note however, that some, such as the legal profession, are smart enough to regulate and control supply ... they don't bow to nonsensical arguments about economic rationalism and the level bloody playingfield!}

And I think a few of us recall that the aviation industry is bloody notorious for its cycles, peaks and troughs. Crying wolf in the name of a few cents higher dividend (and a few mil extra for GD) may be so beautifully timed as to coincide with a global downturn - and what will that mean?

And yes ... those crying about the "lack" of pilots could spend (invest) a few cents per share now in improving the training situation (including cost) and get a better long-term result.

Or maybe outfits like ASA do have the right idea when they gallivant off around the world, rather than looking in their own backyard and actually spending on training, and trying not to completely alienate their bemusingly loyal workforce!



... or, of course, we could once again join the race to the bottom! Sure suits the CEOs ... I feel another big bonus coming on!

Ferris, thanks for your first couple of responses, very insightful. You can call it a skills shortage or a people shortage but if you look at the jobs generation Z want to do I don't think flying jets is up there. There are no doubt many reasons for this but T & C's would be a significant part of it.To address the problem by reducing T & C's seems a rather strange way to attract newcomers and this has happened recently with a number of the advocates of 457's.

The problem with 457's as others have pointed out is they are generally a transient group, they may not like it here and leave, may move jobs within the country or chase bigger dollars in the next shortage hotspot. Either way your best way of gaining and retaining a skilled workforce is to use people who live where they work and pay them enough to not want to go elsewhere and have a lifestyle that they would like.

VOTE 1 DODGYBROTHERS representative of Australian Pilots.

ps.Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower, I really like your thinking as well mate but dodgy beat you to the 'submit reply' and I can personally vouch that he is a top bloke.

:)

If they are recruiting in South Africa and offering a 475 visa you can bet on few, if any, ever going back to SA. 90% will be New Australians within a few years.

Izzit oke, Oz is lakka man. Yes the Afrikanners would stay and why not if they move to YPPH they can continue to call it the eighth province.

Money
 

Yo...

Money. Yep, pilots want it, management wants it, shareholders want it..
And whoever has the power gets the money.

The government's position (justified by the best economic theory available) is that anything that prevents wage increases is good as that prevents inflation, whether it be pilot's wages or plumber's wages. So, there is little scope for writing to your MP about the issue, although try it and see what sort of concise reply you get.

Should companies be concerned about pilot turnover and pilot shortages ? Of course - the more of both the better, folks !
Turnover allows the pilot's next company to offer him/her a B scale or similar package; lack of turnover prevents this opportunity plus creates a more cohesive pilot group, and you don't want those outcomes as that would prevent the lowering of the benchmark for the entire "industry".
Shortages are what appear in a market at A PRICE, as someone pointed out, but the low number of purchasers allows the perception of a shortage at ANY price. The fix is importing labour, increasing supply, and clearing the market at a lower, lower price !

So there ya go; 457 visas - good for the industry, good for the shareholders, and good for Australia. So, back to the first paragraph; who has the power ? And who's going to get the money ? And who does it (the plumbing trade, I mean) because the just love it ?

Me, cynical ?? Never !

xx The Zone.

I think ACMS is vindicated, by the discussion.

I've just been gazing into my crystal ball here.

Today: say about 40 years from now.(Typical)

ALL pilots currently flying where trained thru the new system at the time (2008) MPL & Cadetship. They are all on low wages, work for Co's with shocking T&C's not unlike slave labour camps way back in WW2(current population only ever read about that one) & fly A/C that are superior in techno stuff to the point where the pilots (now actually called system minders) are slowly being removed as they are technically no longer required.
All sounds fanciful I know, but back at the start of the 19th Century flight itself sounded pretty much the same to!:bored:

What I believe we are seeing now these days is the 'cross-over' period where we have the old (current experienced pilots) who came up thru the ranks the traditional way & are used to having a structured career path & being paid for it. And now the new pilots (MPL & Cadets for Eg.) who are entering this field a different way because the world as we know it is changing know no difference, & are the future. Like that saying in the film "Howard Hughes"..................."the way of the future", enter the likes of GD & his 'in the pocket Pollies' !

Food for thought, but for now we must continue the pressure the best way we can until that future is with us by making sure the boys at home are 'fed' first! It's a cruel world, survival of the fittest in the animal kingdom is the single most important gene that makes up all of us!

Personal opinion only as usual


CW

What a joke , there is many guys overseas who could take all the pilot positions in Aus. At the moment not enough are coming home , so what are the airlnes supposed to do, all the guys i know who want to go home are doing so the pay is much better in Aus than the ME and asia , if you dont come home now you probably never will so the 457 visas will be used for jobs that you could have had.

Are the real facts known?
 

Maybe those who want the jobs with Australian airlines should go to govt job search agencies. That way many people would learn more about the real situation.

i say again you are not a pilot

I'm not that sure that Desmos attitude is all that good either for "the next and curent generation of locals!" :=

it's spelt champagne petal