Say NO to 457 visas.
 

In the mid 90's All Nippon attempted to base a group of foreigners (from lands of the usual suspects) in Australia.
A group of overseas pilots who had been blacklisted by Ansett/ TAA lobbied politicians and the practice was put to the sword. The base was closed.
The practice has re emerged since airline management from various carriers lobbied the Howard Govt to solve a pilot shortfall.
If you feel you have been disadvantaged by the selection process of an Australian carrier and they have subsequently employed a foreigner you should do the same.
Write to the Prime Minister, your local member or Senator. Do the same with the Opposition Ministers too!
You will be surprised that some of them will listen and maybe act on your behalf.
Talk to your pilot council, AIPA, VIPA etc and stop this practice.
You maybe JUST A PILOT,but use your rights as an Aussie to protect jobs that are rightfully yours!

Dear QT , it must be so nice being born in Australia. Dada is going to get some more baby food for your silver spoon.

QA I was recently thinking that this issue has gone somewhat quiet lately. As with unpopular government action, this is what airline management hope for; that those with objections will eventually grow tired of raising them and the issue will simply be accepted.

This 457 issue represents the front line of a defacto pilots' dispute and needs to be demonstrated to the gov't to be unacceptable while there are still pilots in this country willing to work for acceptable conditions. To bring in foreign labour on anything less is unacceptable and should be shouted down by every pilot in the country and every foreign-based Australian pilot who thinks he might want to come home to work one day.

If you're in GA and think it doesn't affect you think again. Write to your MPs.

Would it help, before you start jumping up and down, to ascertain if a requirement for the issue of a 457 visa is that there is no Australian equally or better qualified than the visa applicant available for the post?

parabellum

I agree with your sentiments, but in the past airlines have argued that qualified means endorsed on type and with experience ie lots of hours on type. A bit difficult to acheive for a new type rating in OZ.

I suspect the LAMEs are even in a worse position over this, particualrly with the new licensing rules being floated.

Perhaps we all should submit comments for the recently announced white paper on aviation and include something constructive on the skills shortfall.

Wunwing

You may also want to check if a certain piece of legislation allowing overseas pilots to work in Australia virtually unrestricted (Hawked and introduced during a certain aviation incident some 19 years ago) is still valid.

To my knowledge it has never been rescinded (but I stand to be corrected) and could well be used to circumvent immigration procedures.

DK

Since the new Govt took office they have toughened the 457 visa even more than the previous one did.

Before an employer is allowed to sponsor an employee under the 457 program they must first negotiate a Labour Agreement with the Department of Immigration and Citizenship. This Agreement sets out the parameters of how many 457s are to be engaged, what arrangements the employer is putting in place to reduce their reliance on 457s over the life of the Agreement in addition to ensuring that there are no unemployed Australians who could fill the role.

I have had enormous problems getting a Labour Agreement up in an area whre there is huge unemployment and the employer is gagging for staff.

Also there are requirements regarding english language fluency and, the kicker in this case, ALL stakeholders have to support the plan. This means that not only does the employer have to support it but any relevant union does as well. I would suggest that it is highly unlikely that any union would support such a scheme given the number of applicants for every commercial airline position.

So I don't think that this is a huge risk.

Surely 'Qualified' is what the airlines are advertising as their 'minimums'? I suspect a fairly significant legal challenge could be mounted to that effect!:ok:

Think it's got more to do with the bigger picture of the open skies - level playing field mentality that most governments seem to have acquired.

The whole aviation landscape (pardon the pun) is under some delusion that anyone from anywhere can and should just turn up for the gig - the same goes for operator's certificates. - I'm tired of seeing dispensation after dispensation being granted especially to forgein AOC's and LCC's and then before we knew it all the airlines started using the regulatory environment as a vehcile for cost cutting. (if you need an example look at the stupidity of the Mutual recognition Bill) and of course the nonsensical 'blue sky' (sorry.. those puns again) ideas about 'open deregulated' skies for the Asia-Pacific that came out of APEC.

If we do have not the skills and talent for a particular role then give a suitable applicant the Visa - bit if issueing Visas is just another way of cutting costs then its a myopic, very short term view (and I imagine Centrelink does not have too many suggestions for out of work Capts & F/O's.....)

Alternatively, maybe apply the same principle to pollies and political parties...I wonder how many Labor/Lib local branches would be happy with putting up a few imports.:ugh:

Dark Night I'm pretty sure that loophole has been closed now. Pilots were taken off the list of occupations that had a shortfall of qualified people, (introduced in 1989).

Its funny how you guys refer to " Australian pilots wanting to return home"
Could one assume they left Australia for better working conditions or perhaps a better package. So I take it this is acceptable. So if an adequately qualified foreigner , legally has the right to have better conditions than what he presently has in his home country desires to live in Australia , this is now unacceptable. Double standards here gents.

How many gold bars do you have on your shoulder again?
 

Keep adding your comments mate. They're really interesting.

It may be double standards if those supporters of leaving Oz turned round and claimed we shouldn't accept similar.

However, who's to say those that argue against importing pilots under the smokescreen of a so-called/engineered/convenient "shortage" did support pilots leaving Oz ... and did those pilots take up positions to the clear detriment of locals in the countries to which they headed, or were the circumstances entirely different? Did those pilots prevent locals who'd shelled out AU$50,000 - AU$100,000 from getting the employment that would justify their debts?

Apart from assisting potential victims of economic downturn in certain countries, all that importing pilots would do is add another fraction of a cent to shareholder value of certain companies ... but of course, that's what counts these days, isn't it?

All i'l say is there are countless numbers of Australian pilots working in the uk alone and like there are in Aus there are countless numbers of British pilots without a job and this is part of the reason why. To say its unacceptable for Australia to let foreign pilots work there...seems like a complete double standard to me. Just my humble opinion though :ok:

utter cock

Aussies are ONLY WORKING OS BECAUSE LOCALS CANNOT DO THE JOB.

I cannot just walkin and get a job in England or the US, why? because they DON'T NEED me.

I can walk into India or other parts of Australasia, why? because they NEED me.

DEMAND EXCEEDS SUPPLY. ( of locally trained crew )

let me say that again for those hard or hearing

DEMAND EXCEEDS SUPPLY.

Simple

This is NOT the case in Australia.

Any Aussie working in England or the US probably had the required Visa before he went ( family connections or born there )

What I'm objecting to is giving 457 Visa's to Pilots so they can come to Australia and work under a perceived shortage.
Anyone who already has the right to work in Australia is very welcome, I don't care where they're from.

So lets stop the utter rubbish said above right here and right now.


In my case if CX managed to find enough locals that could fly ALL EXPATS would be out the door quicker than you could say "wai"

And that's the same with SQ, KE, EK, etc etc etc.

Q-link 457 Visa Work
 

QLink will be in Johannesburg South Africa from the 29th April to the 4th of March doing initial screening interviews through KORR.

I think our SAFA boys & girls will be standing QUEUE for this.

If Q-link didn't have a crewing problem why are they in South Africa?:E

QFlink don't pay enough money for the young boys and girls to BOTHER applying for jobs. They'd rather push trollys for the same money at Coles and not have to fork out $80,000 to get there.

QFlink are in SA trying to find Pilot's silly enough to work for nothing.

THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED PILOTS IN OZ, OR PEOPLE WANTING TO BE QUALIFIED PILOTS.

ONLY A SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE WILLING TO WORK FOR PEANUTS.

Capish?

In addition to my above posts I would like to add:

That's exactly what occured in Malaysia. 200 Aussies went there after the '89 dispute and filled a need by MH. 4 years later they had ALL LEFT after they were no longer needed.

Having seen some of the QantasLink 457 Documents, I am no longer convinced that it is simply a $ issue...

Consider this:
QantasLink is willing to pay expenses to the value of 25 100 AuD for any 457 Candidate willing to stay for a period exceeding 12 Months.

These expenses are supposed to cover Furniture Removal, Packing and Storage, Medical Insurance for Non-Australian Residents as well as 1 weeks accommodation for candidate and partner during a Look-and-See tour to Australia.

Also considering that QantasLink are not only looking for 1 or 2 457 Candidates, surely if it was only a AuD issue, they would have considered this first and foremost - Especially considering the difficulty of the 457 Visa Application and Justification Process.

Is it not rather the case that some Australians, having worked overseas for a while (and earning top $), are really wanting to come back to Australia but at the same time are expecting/demanding their US$ T&C's to be matched by any Australian Employer which they might choose?

Remember that those US$ T&C's were structured in a lucrative way for a reason: To add as justification for any individual to be willing/able to stomach the life in "Smoke City" (Hong Kong) or even the Sandpit...:ugh:

Why then not start a new thread to measure/determine what Australian Pilots think they are worth...Something to the line of:

First Officer
(AuD per annum)
REX = 75 000
QantasLink = 100 000
Jetstar = 130 000

Captain
(AuD per annum)
REX = 120 000
QantasLink = 175 000
Jetstar = 210 000

:zzz:

well it has happened. Certain one star airline has approval for 75 457 visas coming from yarpieland Approved by our great leader Kevin07

The Pay...
 

Well this is what they are offering....


Q-link First Officer
x Base Wage $51,100
x Superannuation (9% of base wage) $4,500
x Loss of Licence Insurance $1,750
x Overnight Allowances ($100/night, say 40 nights p.a.) $4,000
x Communication Allowance (p.a.) $500
TOTAL monetary package $61,850

Not bad considering that in South Africa one can end up working on a 737-200 doing 90hrs plus per month getting a TOTAL monetary package of ....... wait for it........

$32432.00 per year GROSS - No Loss of license, No Superannuation,No Communication Allowance, No lotsa things....

Facts of Life
 

Trubru, what your paid in your country is your problem, you guys ,like the ozzies have to tackle this at home. You know that Oz have enough drivers to fill these jobs, and some left over, so after thats done, you can fill your boots.
I work in Sing., i'm here because they need me, the minute they don't, bye bye. So when they don't need all the expats in oz, kick em out,same rules.
ACMS, i'm with you

Gents,

I'm one of those displaced Aussies that would love to return home from overseas. I've got about 6000TT, 3000 Jet and 500 P1 Jet. My CASA ATPL is up to date as far as the Class 1 and IR renewal are concerned and I've yet to get a nibble from anyone other than NJS.

If I was in my 20's and didn't mind being poor again, I'd have given NJS a go but I can't justify going backwards in terms of pay. $62k is simply not enough for a right seat, jet job.

I'm amazed that Australian pilots have been as quiet as they have about the Yarpies heading over to work for QF Link and Jetstar. It's a very slippery slope and will have serious repercussions for years to come.

That is true(bru)...

But in SA you will never pay $450 per week for renting a 1 Bedroom apartment (not even in Sandton). :=

Watch out for the "Cost of Living" factor..:ooh:

Look guys don't get me wrong -

If only the guys here in SA could stand together like you guys do against companies that pay sh!t. I really admire that.

But for us yarpies there are other factors to consider when looking at our problems at home. I really wish it was as "simple" as just staying away from companies that pay crap.

The South Africans that I think you Aussies are more familiar with are the guys that left as soon as they heard that there was going to be a new South Africa.....1994 - 1997. I think these individuals just didn't want to accept the change and the possibility of a brighter future for all South Africans.

However, the majority of people that are leaving now do so for their safety and their children's future.

I think there seems to be a bit of a misconception about what a South African is today in South Afrca.

The truth is - I don't want to leave South Africa. I live in Cape Town and fly a Boeing 737-200. Not the latest technology I might ad, but I'm very happy doing it for a living. Cost of living in Cape Town isn't far off from that in certain places in Australia.

What I'm getting to here is - If Australian Companies are going to come here to look for pilots, they are going to find them.

There will always just be one home for all of us, doesn't matter where you're from, but put anyone in our position and then we talk!:ok:

And that's the truth Bru!

Perspective
 

How about we put this in perspective for YOU, bru.

Lets say your employer starts a subsidiary airline, buys news planes and thinks up a wanky name. This new subsidiary offers pilots jobs on, say, $25k pa. You shake your head and say "who in their right mind would work for that money?"
Wanky air starts taking over the routes formerly flown by you in your 737-200. New pilots drift in, but Wanky air just cant get enough drivers on the money they offer. Serves them right, gloats you.
Next thing you hear, Wanky has obtained permission from the govt to offer a better life to pilots from, say, Bangladesh. These pilots are all well-qualified, having flown for BBC for years, and are just looking for a way out of the poverty and deprivation afforded them on the pittance they earn at home. Wanky cant get locals on their crap T&Cs, so there is a "shortage". Wanky's offer is a princely sum, thinks the new arrivals. And their families will enjoy a much higher standard of living in SA on $25k than they were used to.

How would you feel about that, tru? Would your govt be up for that? Instead of asking aussies to put themselves in your position, why dont you put yourself in the position of australians, and have a think about that?

Reality check
 

Trubru wote: Let go through this. Superannuation, of no monetary value until you are 60 or leave Aust permanently. LOL, no monetary value unless you get sick and lose your medical.
So, reality Base wage $51,100 taxable, $4,500 untaxed
Tax on $51,100 =~$10,700
In your hand $40,400 + $4,500 = $44,900

I find it hard to believe that you could get a rental property anywhere in SYD for less than $350pw, therefore $18,200 pa.

The next thing to realise, is that Aussies earning this type of money with a family don't actually pay any tax. The welfare system effectively rebates the tax. On top of that, they may be eligible for rental assistance to cover most or all of that $350 rent.

Therefore, an Aussie family income of $51,100 & rental assistance, probably nets in excess of $65,000, including government handouts. In Sydney $65K, is a subsistance existance for a family.
Further, Aussies have a medicare card, and pay a small co-payment ($5 I think) to visit the doctor, and hospital treatment is free. Basic medical insurance is around a $1200 per annum.

As a 457 holder, I don't believe you are entitled, to social security, rental assistance or a medicare card. Therefore if you have a wife and a dependant you will have around $26,000 per annum to spend on food, utilities, clothing, car & medical expenses. I believe this would be well below the poverty line for a family. Will your wife be entitled to work? She will need to. Childcare for the little one while she works, thats at least $80 per day per child, if you can get a place.

If you don't believe me, do your own research. Heres a link to Coles Supermarkets online, put in a postcode of 2000, Circular Quay and browse the shopping. Sausages, ~$4.70 Kg, most fruit is around ~$5.00kg.

Check out the rental situation realestate.com rentals in nsw.
Sure, come do your look see. Make sure you acutally go into a supermarket and do a shop for your family and see how far $500 pw goes.
I understand your predicement, however, please realise that you will be netting about 60% of a subsistance existance, locked into your visa sponsor company, paying tax, but without the social security benefits.

Good points Breakfastburrito but remember that 90% of the arriving SA pilots will be aiming for PR and citizenship so provided that they can subsidise their salary for a few years they will eventually be laughing and in direct competition with all other Australians.

And in doing so, continue to depress the T&C's in this industry for themselves and citizens below the poverty level. I sure when their done with SA, it will be the Philippines, Vietnam & other poor or desperate countries. In other words, these companies are in fact selling CITIZENSHIP to the desperate.
Can you understand why citizens have a problem with this? If there were no citizens that could do the job, fair enough, but there are. This is not about aviation, but about citizenship. At least we are close to the truth.

Seeing as QFL still req passes in subjects that hardly make a diff to ones flying have these 'imports' got similar or are they looking at pilots who are already type endorsed & will overlook the finer details? I do believe there is a shortage of pilots here in OZ BUT only the types the airlines want.




CW

AUSTRALIANS FOR AUSTRALIAN JOBS


TID Edit: You're stepping close to the line. Be careful, now.


"click click click"

If you want to live in Oz then apply like the rest have to do.

Once you get to live here on fair terms THEN apply to whoever you like whenever you like.

Sounds fair and reasonable to me.

THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED PILOTS IN OZ, OR PEOPLE WANTING TO BE QUALIFIED PILOTS.

ONLY A SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE WILLING TO WORK FOR PEANUTS.

get in line.

Remember you can't hide your accent, WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE.

And don't bother saying "i didn't know" like the yanks did in 1989.

To the AFAP:
I propose you place a ban on membership for these IMPORTS and seek the help from other Unions. ( if they'll talk to you )

Don't sit on your bums and let this happen AGAIN.

Come on Mr Cox.

What Shortage
 

Understand your situation Kenny. I've got many hours way above the minimums required to fly for any airline/regional in Australia. I applied for Jetstar, VB, REX, Qantas and Cathay for fun, guess who reply's. Cathay. :ugh: You start to feel that as a qualified pilot in Oz no one in the industry wants to touch you because they don't want to pay for the experience. If I had 200hrs there are a bunch of programs I can enroll in to get into these places. I fail to see the shortage but ACMS has got it right.
If the Aussie blokes that live overseas were willing to come back to Qlink, would Qlink pay for the to move to oz, Not a F:mad:en chance.
To the Saffa's. No one would be pi$$ed off if they gave aussie pilots a fair go and paid us a salary that was at least on par with a garbage collector. We are Pi$$ed off because companies will take you guys before us because you are willing to work for less under cutting our salaries and working conditions. Try demanding what you think is fair and see the response you get form the Qlink and Jetstar. Qantas group should no longer be the national carrier as it is only targetting foreign nationals. :=

Does anyone know if any of the 457 visa pilots going to Jetstar are entering as Direct Entry Captains?
And if so, are they all Airbus command experienced?

All sing together now:-----

"THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED PILOTS IN OZ, OR PEOPLE WANTING TO BE QUALIFIED PILOTS.

ONLY A SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE WILLING TO WORK FOR PEANUTS."

Hi guys/gals.

Let me play the devils advocate here for a moment.

Would it be a fair comment that when a group of people is trying to achieve a goal i.e better T and C's that if you are patient long enough a situation will arise that you can put to your advantage i.e a pilot shortage.

I suspect that this is about the first time since 89 that a real shortage of pilots (using the current T and C's, in other words enough pilots available but not at the going rates offered by management) has occurred.

So is this the best chance you've had to put some serious pressure on the gangulies of management.

If this is the case then is seems that the airlines have said stiff s..t we'll look elsewere.

Don't get me wrong i've go quite a few close friends in mainline positions and i would love to see them get better T and C's.

I guess the question i would ask is where do you go from here if this was the the best chance of getting what you wanted and given that you've held strong for so long.

Fly safe and play hard.

Regards to all.

Hoss 58

THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED PILOTS IN OZ, OR PEOPLE WANTING TO BE QUALIFIED PILOTS.

ONLY A SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE WILLING TO WORK FOR PEANUTS. :ok:

Lets just get back to the facts here -

The 457 visa system is a bonafide working aggreement which has been endorsed by government from both sides. Non Australian persons enter this country every day and take up work under the scheme is a variety of industries.

Aviation should be no different. Employers will employ the persons that they want or need under this scheme as long as the criteria is met. That's the way it should be.

You chest thumping sooks can bleat all you like but when we have so many sections of industry screaming for qualified workers, no government is going to exclude a particular segment of the workforce just because a few pilots are sooking about it. If you are as good as you think you are, then you will have no worries getting good jobs here.

Let not forget that aussie pilots head overseas at the drop of a hat and take up flying roles in countries where lots of pilots also compete for employment . Why is that OK ,but we can't ever have any come back this way.

Like I said, if you are as hot as you all say you are, you should have your pick of the best jobs right here!

Reality ............ its not always easy to swallow for some of you!

Victor victor victor..............

man you are a lovely person

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AVIATION, I can't speak for the mining industry.

You'll have to go to the PMRUNE ( proff miners rumour network ) to get their take on THEIR problems.

:mad:

read the posts above goose. Specifically # 15 17 and 18