You talkin to me?

A fair wage? where did I say that? I think I said a "proper wage"

similar but different.

so did you have the right to work in Oz first, or after the job?

Well that's ok, just stand in line after all Aussies have been offered it first. THEN you can give the great downunder a shot. Till then as you say in the UK toodle pip.

This is nothing less than the UK. the US and most place do, and fair enough too.

And don't start that 1,000 's of Aussies work O/S crap. You know as well as I do that if the UK, Malaysia and the US didn't need them they wouldn't be there UNLESS they previosly had the right to work there.

IN LINE BUDDY

oh and how dare i dictate what you earn?????? WELL WELL WELL now we know........If you think that guys like you accepting crap deals to fly DOESN'T effect the rest of us then mate?????? what ya smokin?

IT IS VERY MUCH IN MY INTEREST TO KNOW AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW IT.

MAYBE IF YOU GOT OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE YOU"D REALISE THAT ANY PILOT ACCEPTING CRAP LOWERS THEN BAR FOR THE REST OF US.

If you had a problem with Aussies taking jobs in the early 90's in the UK then just maybe YOU should HAVE said SOMETHING to your GOVT back THEN?

So unless you did then I suggest you keep very quiet.

Don't know what your smoking ACMS but it's sure to be illegal in Hong Kong (where you appear to live/work?!). I'm in Australia.

I'm glad you raised the issue that global trade / employment needs to be embraced.

You've challenged the very basis of the entire economy and you are too stupid to realise it. Why should you dictate what everyone else works for?

Don't make it sound like it's about "everyone's wage's" , it's about YOUR wages. You are being selfish and telling other people "Don't you dare apply for a job because it may effect me".. then you dare to imply they are selfish.. you are a joke!

You are nothing but a 2 bit communist who wishes to destroy jobs.

Yeah I confused you with The JAP Bomber Pilot TORA TORA for a second. Gee sorry, my communist blood was boiling over a bit with red hate at your SELFISH Attitude LOWERING the general WAGES of those not smart enough to NEGOTIATE their own DEALS like you. Sorry MATE.

So, how is JETSTAR doing?

still applies to you.

still applies to the JAP Bomber Pilot

oh and TORATORATORA, you do know who won WW2 don't you? Your folks wouldn't be too happy with that handle I'm sure.

JAP KAMAKAZI might have been a better handle:}

Pretty funny line to be taking for a Cathay Pilot who says:

but my favourite of yours - in response to a question if pilots were happy at Cathay:

So "they" want to get on with it and you abuse them for not asking for Cathay A rate?? Your hypocracy knows no bounds. Why don't you "get on with it" and leave it to them to "get a job"

I guess you want to come home? Well it would seem Supply exceeds Demand when it comes to meeting your salary desires (when you want to come home) - Mate if you want to come home - come accept the going salary (You ARE a foreign pilot - it's just you are a citizen!!!). Deal with it and stop telling people what they should be working for - because it doesn't meet your retirement plan!

ACMS = Foreign Pilot with citizenship (i.e. doesn't need 457) asking others to not accept lower salary in order to meet his retirement desires. (a.k.a. Hypocrite)

What was the context I used it in?

That was a long time ago.......

We try to raise the pay and COS at CX and guys like you coming here accepting crap doesn't help. C scales etc etc. (Same as what guys and girls in QF, VB, JQ etc should and are doing to help ALL )

Not sure about them wanting A scales?

We hope no Pilot's join CX on crap deals and unfortunatly some do. This doesn't help ANYONE, you included.

Now read my post again.

Why are you posting here? I thought the "dummies" here in Australia needed to "find" a job?

Why don't you leave them alone and let them get on with it? Instead you choose to sh*t stir on your A scale wage telling others what they should work for. Nice guy - tell others to go home and tell their wives "Sorry love, ACMS on his A Scale wage said I couldn't take the job..."

Frozo,
UR not even a pilot.
Tora,
RU a 200hr airbus fo perchance? Ever been a captain??
Who.ru,
10,000 is gr8 mate but is it commensurate with age?!
:}:ooh::ouch:

See it's nothing to do with retirement at CX. It is to do with you heroes accepting crap to fly A320's in JQ on seriously crap wages causing CX to lower the bar even further again so as to MATCH your pay and cond.

What you do ( either here in CX or EK or JQ ) effects the WHOLE Pilot community worldwide.

if you think differently then you are in your own little world.


p.s. How do you know what scale I'm on?

dope

Ahh.. so it IS all about you..

You MUST be on A-Scale ACMS - otherwise you undercut people and started the decline in CX wages right?

How dare you tell some young guy he can't have a big pay rise because it may effect you? Again, so you insist a young guy should go home and say "Sorry love, can't take a massive pay rise, new job and move to a real city because ACMS said it might effect his A-Scale salary.".

Oh and Desmotronic.. try again.. still can't work out if you were a QF Cadet or Jetstar though..

A-Scale or Hypocrite scale ACMS?

none of the above d:mad:d

Maybe you'd care to explain this post and how it shows your caring nature for your fellow Pilots in Oz.

well? seems I'm trying to work for the greater good of the Pilot community and YOU? for yourself.

Exactly! That's what I'm saying. (you clearly missed my sarcasm in the grass is browner (i.e. not greener!) quote - relating to worker and then union claims! Funny though that you took them literally) People should be allowed to apply for whatever jobs they want , for wages they are happy with! (Not the wages some Cathay A-Scale guy is happy with)

People willing to move will benefit the economy! It can help reduce structural unemployment.

I don't understand how you think that quote supports your argument. I have no problem with you wanting a higher salary, but don't go around saying "Australia is full of pilots - no-one should be allowed to apply from outside".

Apply for what you want at the salary you want.. NEWFLASH! You don't always get what you want.. it's happened to me (recently in fact - but I'm not running around trying to pressure people to not take the jobs I want) and it happens to others.. it's the way the economy works - it's right, and good!

Sure, you want what's best for you - I have no problem with that at all (in fact that's how the entire economy functions) but don't go around telling everyone that it's in THEIR best interests to refuse a job when you're real motive is looking after yourself at their expense.

By the way,,,,,,,,,,when I joined CX on B scales it was AFTER the A scalers voted NOT to object to it.

B scalers ( and no-doubt a lot of A ) voted NOT to accept C scales for new joiners, but CX decided to impliment them anyway.

I can sleep very straight in my bed too, and for good reason.

Yes I got the Grass is Browner joke.........

you said "you don't believe Australian Pilot's and that wages should go down"

NICE one, very community spirited that.

IF we at CX can prevent Pilot's joining on much worse conditions that we enjoy then in the long run CX will be forced to raise the bar a bit more. Then everyone benefits. maybe that is a crock of ****, but that's the aim.

Oh Dear... you undercut the wages.. if you and no-one else accepted the wage then they would have had to raise their wages...

Is that the smell of hypocrisy? mmmm.. indeed it is... :=

"I can take the B-Scale guys, but how dare any of you consider taking a "B-Scale" at another airline... tut tut tut...

They voted to let in B scales, we voted to reject C scales for the benefit of all.

If they had a problem with us joining I would not have come into the mess it would have created. You would have, and loved it.

There is a difference.

Of course I want to keep the wages high, it's in my interests to do so.
But you seem keen to let the wages go down the hill as long as it benefits your position.

No.. by your own logic you put in concrete the lower wages by accepting the job. I have no problem with that. You accepted a job for wages you were happy with. Now you wish to deny that right to others.

So the "slide" in pay started with the A-scalers... re-inforced by people like yourself. Why direct your anger at those still to come? :=

So should China / Hong-Kong allow non-Chinese to continue to work there or should they dissolve the Chinese equivalent of the 457 Visa? What would you say to a Chinese man who says that you have increased the supply of pilots to Cathay and decreased the wages (especially given the B-scale you accepted). What's the difference?

No, the A scalers put it into concrete by Voting NOT to OBJECT to the B scale wage.

back then If those up here didn't mind why should I.

Now the B scalers do care and Voted accordingly.

If B scalers didn't vote against the C scale then we wouldn't have a leg to stand on and anyone could join if they wanted to, BUT WE DO CARE and CX was forced to impliment it against our will. Reacting to JQ etc that paid low wages CX lowered the bar even further to about $92,000 or there abouts.


Have you seen how much they pay the locals up here?



Thanks.

right or wrong I followed the majority vote, like a good communist.

At least I'm in a Union and caring about others.

So you don't deny you were the catalyst in the slide of Pay and conditions. :rolleyes:

Interesting argument you try to make.

How about these apples:

I'll agree (though not in principle) to no 457 Visa's for Foreign pilots if you agree that all pilot's of Australian citizenship be banned from working for foreign registered airlines. Fair's fair hey? Any takers?

I can hear a CPL student working in a bar for $20,000 a year saying "Have you seen how much they pay the JQ pilots?"

I'm off to watch TV. Rest assured. Until the day I die, if someone I meet doesn't understand the definition of hypocrisy and needs an example - I now have one.

On the Australian Immigration ENSOL and MODL list are jobs like "gardener" and "painter". These are jobs in desperate shortage in OZ, so you guys think it would be ok for me, a qualified A320 left seater to apply for one of these, get into OZ all legal like and then get a job with Jet*? Surely I would be taking a job from a painter or a gardener just to get into OZ, so really what is the difference to applying directly to Jet* which actually pays more than my current US airline left seat job?

I have said if CX didn't need expats we would be gone tomorrow and if that was the case then fair enough.

A CPL student working in a bar in HK? I doubt it. If he was he'd be earning about the same as a S/O.

You've nicely diverted the arguement from foreign Pilots coming to Australia accepting vastly lower wages against the wishes of the vast majority of Australian Pilots currently employed. Into a CX stouch 14 years ago when the vast majority of Pilot's didn't give a rats. And then called me a hypocrit, well I don't think I am, right or wrong I acted in accordance with the wishes of the majority, something a UNION does.

Can I get a job in the US as a Union rep, then apply to SouthWest later?

NO


Because that's what this arguements about, not whether I'm hypocritical or not, maybe I am for taking a job 14 years ago after the majority already here voted ok, come on up. Did I did help to lower the wages bar of Pilots around the world because I accepted the job with the blessing of the local Union?


But the majority in Australia haven't voted, ok come on down.


The real issue is "should Australia let in foreign labour to do a job that we could do if they paid a proper wage to attract the people into the Industry in the first place."

Lets vote then, let the majority decide.

Come on over bus monkey you can paint my dunny ! Guarantee the award plus a bit of extra retention.

Frozo,
Get a life mate.

ACMS-boy, you sure are an angry little powder monkey!You even called me 'Sonny Jim'! Patronising, or what?
So, what were the chances of me ever even obtaining said Aussie right-to-work as a pilot before the job was de-listed? None, right? As I said, protectionist all the way.

Desmo-moronic-FYI, I am an airbus left-seater, 2000 on type- apology accepted anytime.

Of course you are sir tora, dost thou have four gold bars in addition to your thy bus and an invite to the house of lords aswell? Wilst thou subject thyself to the scrutinies of the dept in order to scabbify thyself for a pittance?

I never thought I'd say this but great idea Desmotronic... Jetstar should hire a bunch of "painters" who fly aircraft when there is nothing that needs painting... :p

Good to see you are approaching the acceptance stage.

so now it's o.k. to move out of Australia and take a job (so long as it's 14 years ago... i.e. It was ok for me, but not now, now it's a crime) but you can't have someone now come to Australia for a job (unless it's to paint your crapper)..

When I see Australian pilot's advocating a ban on Australian citizen's working as pilot's overseas's I'll agree with you're desire to deny non-citizen's the right to work as pilot's when sponsored by a company.

All right..........good for you.

And you lot in the EU aren't protectionist then?

I certainly can't get a job there, unless I marry into a right to work.
Do you think BA or VS will sponsor me a job if they can't get anyone to fly their light twins for peanuts? Or do you think the people and Unions in the UK might just object? ( including you)

Because you'd have every right to object and I would support you 100%.

It's not double standards, it's looking after your own Nationals first. If your own don't want the job at any money and there is a real shortage then open it up to foreigners.

Isn't that what most countries do, even the EU ( as one country per say )

Sorry, Desmo old chap, don't understand your banter!
Probably because ACMS thinks I'm Japanese.......

Mate I wouldn't be in HK if SUPPLY ( of locals ) EXCEEDED DEMAND would I? I suggest I'd be home by now, and fair enough too.

That's my arguement, SUPPLY in Australia still exceeds DEMAND.

We CAN SUPPLY ALL the required Pilot's without needing to look O/S for them. We are going round in circles my friend. You in 1 corner and me in another.............

IF YOU CAN PROVE NO PILOT WANTS THE JOBS AT REX, VB, JQ, QLink, Tiger, etc etc even for gold bars then you have my total support and can recruit from South America if that's what you need.

THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED PILOTS IN OZ.

There you have it folks. Apparently Supply exceeds Demand so wages should be falling.
I'm surprised ACMS that you'd be going against union claims asking for better pay and conditions. But hey, if supply exceeds demand. That from a man in China. :8

But regardless.. why does it matter.. in Dec 07 you said
So using that logic, where do you fit in to Aussie pay ? It would appear you don't.

Who is we white man? You mean that Australian airlines can supply all the jobs (your words not mine) at a some given price. (Don't create a B-Scale - that was only for you at Cathay right?)

So why did Cathay need to lower their wages AND take foreign workers? Seems to go against what you are arguing...

Thats right elasticity of supply and demand just like lollipop ladies and bus drivers. BTW frozo who are these pommie's and yankie's on centre, do they know what a GAAP sounds like?

I'll be interested to hear an explanation of your analogy of elasticity of supply and demand being like bus drivers...

I wasn't aware that an accent altered your understand of Australian procedures. How do you go with NATRACKS (presuming you have an Australian accent?!)

ACMS

Thanks for turning a perfectly good thread into a Chest Thumping ACMS Sideshow...:ugh:

QantasLink and Jetstar are infact recruiting people at the same rates (+) of what ordinary Australians are currently working for (I suggest you read post #19 again).

Why are you not having a GO at your countrymen who still fly for Jetstar and QantasLink? According to your arguments they are also screwing the system up, aren't they..?

In life you are either a Pragmatist or an Idealist.
Idealists (read ACMS) belong in Politcs while Pragmatist make good Business Men/Women and Entrepreneurs.

Please check your CX Schedule now, think its time for your next Anger Management Session...:E

I would just like to correct the very first post on this thread. The Visa's for the All Nippon Pilots in the 1990's were NEVER cancelled. I should know as I was one of them. I now work in Japan with about 50 Ozzie pilots, all earning LESS than the locals. Go figure

???????
 

So the airline world is really no different from Australian GA. They learned it from GA.

Would you agree with me if I were to suggest that ACS...or whatever he calls himself...

was nothing other than a bigmouth pain in the butt? :ok: