At drinks with the Jetstar Boss
 

At drinks following the JQ check and Training meeting in Melbourne yesterday (Thursday 29th Dec) AJ asked the gathered mass why pilot moral was so poor in JQ and why the "lads" wont accept his offer. When told, he got irate and launched into a tirade about how well JQ treats the pilots and how good the current offer is.

But the punchline.......

He said if the pilots don't accept his offer he will only deal with pilots on EBA's. (Perhaps he was asleep or otherwise occupied last Saturday evening or maybe Ian has inside info from his pals)

and the parting shot.......

He went on to say that any movement in pilot salaries will destroy the JQ LCC model.

Does the little fella need a booster seat to sit at the bar with the big people?



That is quite ironic, the capitalists at the turn of the century argued in an inquiry that forbidding them sending kids down the mines would spell the end of mining in the UK...

someone should
 

point out to the little general that his salary went from 6 figure to seven figure in a year and is going up another notch up this year. let alone his new status as Chairman lounge in QF plus all the other goodies bestowed on him now.:ugh:

Yesterday 29th Dec???.... time machine here I come

Tell the little Irish bloke to have a read of the December issue of the Australian Aviation. Makes for interesting reading. Here is a quote from one of the articles:
" How do you attract pilots into the industry? You pay them a remuneration that reflects their hard won skills and responsibilities and you give them terms and conditions that reflect the way you would like to be treated, like a human being. It all comes down to that famous movie line:" Show me the money".
Get a copy and read pages 89-92.
If you J* star guys don't get a good pay rise out of this new negotiations you have rocks in your heads!

It was a typo DnP, but perhaps relevant when related to AJ and morale related to the pilots!

So he's not that tall and he comes from another country. Gee....should have him flogged.
Hmmm...on the other hand there's that aircraft order which will supply jobs to lots and lots and lots of pilots, engineers and cabin attendants including some who are still in primary school and won't be working for JQ for years yet. The LCC model is a business model that works. If you don't like it leave. People are still sitting up all night on buses around Australia and the LCC doesn't yet serve every route. Do you really expect to get that growth in jobs and airframes out of a full-cost QF model? What do you want? 20%.....30%....40%....Second Officers getting $150K?.......You shouldn't be allowed in a cockpit let alone at a Check and Training meeting.
And speaking of that, if you are the sort of guy in a senior position in the company who rushes out of a meeting to put conversations on the 'net....that tell us all a lot. If....and I have no idea whether that's true...but if morale is low it might just be because of whingers like you for whom the glass is forever half empty.
Grow up and get over it. Leave and let someone who wants the job to have a shot. I'm sure they'll waive your notice period so you can leave.

First thing to remember is that Alan Joyce is really a frustrated pilot!! I have read in a interview him saying that he really wanted to fly but for whatever reason didn't.

Secondly why is there a move worldwide from all the LCC to increase their yields and move closer to a legacy airline model?

The Big European two are moving toward package deals hiding the airfare in the total price.

Southwest are looking at targeting the business sector.

Jetstar is not a real LCC they are just there to be used to protect Qantas from losing market share and for leverage in QF IR negotiations. They are way to close to QF in so many ways to be considered a real LCC!!

I think that is why some people get angry over the wages issue. They see it as QF just trying to screw their own. However of the few Jetstar people I have met they all think it is a great job and all things considered are happy.

No wonder the little fella needs bodyguards!

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzz

Capt Sherm,

"The Low Cost model is a business model that works"

Yep. Especially when you have a parent company footing your bills for you.

Complete and total moron just doesn't quite cut it for fools like you who believe we should be doing our jobs for less than we are worth.

D1ckhead

M

Thanks buddy......the tenor and content of your reply tells us all exactly what you are worth.....you actually probably made more sense, tho' unwittingly, than you have for a long time
Even the finest brain surgeon in the world is worth only what someone is willing to pay him. And you.....ain't no brain surgeon.

I have just noticed that you are a baby boomer.

Enjoy your retirement at the expense of us won't you?! Thanks for leaving such a wonderful mess for my generation to deal with.

Perhaps I would have been more accurate labelling you as generation selfish.

M

ps - I will never begrudge what our SOs make as in the context of International operations they are cheap labour.

No no no M....you are (I think?) a pilot....stay focused. The main thing is the next thing etc etc.
This is abut how a LCC works, in a symbiotic relationship with its parent or by itself. Both tried and true strategies, both legal, both well tested
Faced with Virgin and Tiger at home, Freedom on the Tasman and (one day) Singapore etc on the Pacific alongside V-Australia.....exactly what would you....not others....YOU personally have done to protect the Qantas Group's revenue stream and shareholder interests? And the 30 something thousand jobs? Hope for the best? Light candles? Sacrifice a lamb? Or actually face real world issues and the simple fact that lower fares mean more jobs....for our friends, colleagues and family.
I would love every pilot to retire rich (wish I could) but you can't do that without a job.

Fella's

Don't even bother responding to Captain Sherm. I can't even understand what he is on about, if someone can work it out, let me know.

Accounting 101 Captain, supply demand! THEY NEED S$%T LOADS OF PILOTS!

Great, lots of jobs, we can all work that one out, but at what price? Great I have a job, but I can't afford a house. What planet are you on! You sound like management to me, or you have been brained washed.

At J* last eba you all could have got 15% more pay. That came straight from your HR managers mouth. WAKE UP!

Captain Sherm,

I used to work for one of the most succesful LCCs in the world, easyJet. It was also one of the best paid pilot jobs in Europe. Southwest, the model that all others are supposed to emulate, has amongst the best paid pilots in the world.

Part of the LCC model has been to attract and retain very good, skilled and motivated staff by offering good renumeration and working conditions. This has been very successful at many airlines. The first to break this mould were Ryan air (Now who do we know who used to work for them?) who are now having to employ pilots from such places as South America and from former Easten Block countries, together with languadge difficulties, cultural and standards problems, to the extent that saftey has become a real issue.

Pay peanuts, get monkeys (or at least good blokes who don't realy give a Sh1^ about the company).

Is that what you are advocating?

Its good to mention Southwest…and its highly unionized highly paid workforce. And there’s lots of growth left in 1-3 hour markets in the US. SW is already the biggest airline in the world if you measure that by daily passenger boardings vs ASKs.
But it wasn’t always thus. 1971 they started within Texas (not covered by CAB rules) and at that time, in fact for a long time, they weren’t paying top dollars at all.
It took SW about 9 years to get to 22 737s (roughly JQ’s domestic fleet today after a couple of years of the 320) and the beginning of inter-state flying. And yes….while Jetstar has Qantas to help it start…..so did SW have it’s privileged position at Love Field. Almost every Noth American major has tried to start something to stop SW, none have really succeeded. “Shuttle by United”, “Ted”, “Song” “Continental Lite”, "Frontier Horizon", “Jazz” etc etc. Majors…aka Legacy Carriers….have to do something but the fact is that few have done it as well as QF did with JQ.
Who knows how well JQ pilot and the rest of the staff (remember them?) will be paid in the years ahead? I guess that would be a function of how well the airline goes wouldn’t it? And the collective will of the pilot body….(please refer to a bazillion Pprune threads on pilot unions in OZ)….and pilots willing to vote with their feet rather than whinge….I had a mate years ago in another world who got a phone call in the middle of a 727 class at a dodgy US freight outfit…..”Hey AJ, a mate of mine is starting up an overnight parcel service using Falcon jets…he’s going to call it Federal Express…you could get seniority number 12…what do you think?”. AJ was wise of course, like most pilots when outside the cockpit…”Never happen!!!” he replied and wrote off millions of future earnings in seconds.
Australia is in transition. From the way it was to the way it will be. Don’t judge it all just yet. Dixon and Joyce face far more implacable foes than their pilots…and the truth is they are not foes at all, quite the opposite….and they are building a group wide strategy which combines the strengths of the QF brand with JQ’s low cost ability to protect QF Group market share, and attract and expand value-driven markets. Its not a perfect process I am sure. I’ve spent years with a very well resourced Asian carrier on the 777 and yet they too are starting their own LCC to stem the tide of market share. The world is changing and if we have the Situation Awareness we are paid for….we should smell the coffee…and the roses…and get on board a changing world.
“I deserve to be paid more”…is not a rallying cry that would have me follow you over the parapet into the war…..just take it easy and stop listening to slogans. Life unfolds in our flying world and I have to tell you that for it to unfold with jobs for all is not the worst thing at all. And by the way....my cellar is full of my note from Micro-Economics 101,201,301 and 401....and that was when you went to university with a tram ticket, pencil and notebook, not online with a glass of wine and a keypad. iIf you PM me I can arrange to send you cartons full so you can study the things we "boomers" learned while you were in nappies.
As for "can't afford a house"....hmmm...maybe not in Vaucluse just yet. Lest said the better here. Save up and look to the outer suburbs as we all did.
And if you weren't aware...SW is not pefect. Recent years have seen 2 horribly landing accidents.....no Asians or other lesser pilots on board. It can happen.

He's probably advocating what aircraft siad on another thread and that is that pilots should be paying the airline for the priveldge of flying their aircraft. Weird dude.

Oh a brilliant riposte Metro.

I am though, not trying to advocate anything, just exand and enlighten. You follow your own nose into the future thanks. And read posts before showing your prejudices.

You posted whilst I was thinking up my brilliant riposte. I actually meant aircraft was the weird dud, not you.

Captain Sherm,

It's all very well to spout economics, however, in the Australian environment you can work for Virgin, Jetstar or Qantas (and now perhaps Tiger) and thats IT.

It's not an easy matter to take your bat and ball and go elsewhere if you don't like Jetstar terms and condition, as you imply.

Correspondingly for the airlines its not an easy matter to hire new staff either.

These considerations make the negotiations over pay and conditions slightly incestuous.

Capt Sherm, There is no such things as:

• LCC only discount Fuel.
• LCC only discount Aircraft.
• LCC only discount Spares.
• LCC only discount Government Taxes & Charges.
• LCC only discount Landing charges.

Certain suppliers may apply discounts for volume orders, but this is not specific to LCC's.
However, there are:

• LCC Booking flexibility -At a significant price if available at all.
• LCC Network topologies - Efficient aircraft utilisation (the reason not all bus routes yet covered)
• LCC Catering - Buy your own on board.
• LCC Customer Service - Reduced.
• LCC Baggage - No interline, excess baggage charges ruthlessly applied.
• LCC Connections - Unsuited to time poor.
• LCC Terminals - Lower quality, secondary airports.
• LCC Reservations systems.
• LCC Common fleet - Reduced training / maintenance /spares.
• LCC lounges - None

I could go on, but the point is that suppliers do not give a "discount" because their input will be consumed by a LCC for the benefit of "bus" people. LCC's have lower costs because on the whole, their systems are less complex & more efficient - Usually to the detriment of some component of the customer experience, and priced accordingly.
Why should the labour component operate at a "LCC discount", when no other supplier does?
Your arguments also lose credibility when you play the man.

Ahhh, now it all falls into place. Ex blue shirt now on 777 with SQ and coming back to join the botherhood empire of AN on J* A320's while waiting for your 787 job. No wonder QF and J* are so "wonderful".:yuk:

A raise in pilot income will stuff the LCC model eh? Lead by example Mr CEO and stop taking massive pay rises every F&*king year ,yet crying that if anyone else takes one it will destroy the very model that is 'fragile'..
What a ruse. Game's up AJ, you have had your 5 minutes. You order aircraft and increase profit so you get a pay rise. More pilots needed? Then pay what's required. Give up the Dixon poormouth winge.:=

Correct that Southwest are the best paid pax carriers in the states,however Sherm you will find they are one of the only majors there that does NOT have a unionized workforce.:rolleyes:

AJ is feeling the pressure!
 

J* has complained recently to mainline QF that QF had pinched pilots that J* was in the process of recruiting. CM's response was to the effect, "Mainline needs them and we'll take every one we can get", ie get stuffed.

The pilot shortage has moved up the totem pole from REX to J* & DJ with mailine QF also having problems. If J* pilots don't stand their ground now and get better remuneration then you deserve the contempt of their peers - you made a mistake a few years ago, now is the time to correct it. Dixon has been using J* staff as pawns to undermine mainline T's & C's but this pilot shortage is a weapon that can be used to turn it around and get remuneration appropriate to the high cost of acquiring pilot skills. Once J* pilot T's & C's have been raised, then the pilot group can truly unite in the industrial sense.

Capt Sherm,

That ok for you to want to work for peanuts now. You saw the glory days, we haven't. I don't want to live in Vaucluse, how stupid is that, most of us now can't afford anything in the inner West or down in Melbourne area's like Brunswick, before you sprout off, have a look at the Domain online and see what the outer areas are worth, excess of $500-$600k and they need a reno maybe you have been in Korea or Singa's too long and just want to come home at any cost. You say if we don't like it we can leave, how about you stay in Asia and not accept below par conditions to fly the 787 so our conditions can improve.

I understand the arguments, some of what you say makes some sense, Lot's of jobs for everyone, QF's expansion strategy etc etc. But we can't also defy the fact that the way these airlines stay competitive is to lower conditions such as pay for you own endorsement (How many have you paid for, $30000 grand dents the down payment on the house in Vaucluse). You have cabin crew and pilots at Tiger now on AWA's that provide substandard conditions, Qf cabin crew on contract terms, and these people want to work and have a job, but its causes so much stress on family life and because they are on crap rostering systems. But on your rationale, they have a job. That is such an easy attitude to have when you lived in an era of high pay, great rostering protection, good crew meals, paid endorsements, no capital gains, university fee's paid for, and homes that were relatively cheaper than todays standards.

You say leave if you don't like it. Easy to say when you are the end of your career not at the start. If it all gets too hard for you, you just retire, yet I have a 20 plus years left in this game and if I see an opportunity to further my earning potential by taking advantage of a pilot shortage I will. And I think anyone who doesn't needs to dust off those free paid uni books and read ECO 101,102,103 again!

Is this the same character that the Australian Airports Association just gave the award of "Aviation Personality of the Year" to ? :ugh:

Never did wear a blue shirt actually.
Yes life was more pampered way back then....but jobs were fewer by far, and opportunities much more limited. In hindsight the Two Airline Policy was a straightjacket.
And like many of my generation I did have some years in my late 30s and 40's out of the cockpit before finally heading OS to ensure my kids could be brought up. So not all beer and skittles. And, after paying in blood flying a narrow body "single pilot" for a few years I did pay for my heavy Boeing rating....and happily so as it gave me years of fun and paid for itself over and over.
I, like may others, have helped build airlines and seen them fail or never get started, I have lived far from my children and I have lived in strange and distant worlds where my only friends were "exiled" pilots from '89. Not the toughest of times but enough. And I know that for all that, the most important thing for any young pilot is the first RPT jet job. A 2000 hr pilot joining Jetstar tomorrow could expect to be a 787 Captain in a time span easlily counted using the fingers of both hands, with a few left over.
Hmmmm...I waited 15 years for a DC-9.
As for "free university"...yes it was....but the hours and hours and hours when others werre in the bar on layovers wasn't free. That was my contribution....and hence my attitude that you have to give things a go, and be prepared to move and try new things.
This is unique time in Australia's history with order books full for the 320, 380, 777, 787 and Embraer....In the case of the 320, 380 and 787 these are orders as big (or bigger) than any in the world. I simply hope that we as a profession don't let blind ideology of whatever sort get in the way of enjoying it.

Where on earth did you get that from? The Southwest Pilots Association represents 5600 pilots and has been involved deeply in contract negotiations with their company for 30 years!

They have lucrative profit-sharing arrangements with their company, as well as wage increases directly tied to company profit increases of up to 8%!

Southwest has also had a management which was far better to negotiate with than those in JQ and QF.

Thanks Mr. Krueger for throwing some logic down on the thread. My opinion here from a second year economics background is that your wages component should not be a critical aspect of your business model. The reasons are that it is too unstable and flexible to make it something to rely on. If you were to do that at a time of undersupply and significant movement you would be setting yourself up for too many surprises.

What will happen when all those FO's you trained decide to move on to international carriers who pay better? You can get them early when they need the start but retention is the challenge of modern aviation HR. It doesn't make good business sense to not pay your pilots a wage that keeps them and attracts new players.

It's lazy to look for significant savings from wages by not raising them. Look to productivity and staffing levels, bargain to get more for a little more money. There are many ways to increase the viability of your business model without putting your staff offside and hence not getting the most out of them. This whole argument of labour costs being the thing that keeps a company alive is dated and scaremongering. If you had some intelligent managers they'd not go the simple option every time and put some lasting structures in place to retain, attract and get the most out of good staff. All the while having a sustainable, profitable and growing company.

Sorry for ranting but the forest trees thing is old.

I think the issue here is the fact that any growth will be limited without crew, if they aren't being attracted to the industry. The ones that are left will take the jobs with better renumeration/conditions. The LCC model DOESN'T work without crew.

Of interesting note just ONE of the four Jumbo classics doing the domestic flying between PER and MEL/SYD made a multiple of the entire J* net profit. Thats both their combined Domestic/International operation making less than one mainline aircraft. I wonder which operation offers a better cost of capital return???????

Can anybody have an educated guess as to what percentage of revenue are pilots wages? ie for Jetstar, QF, Virgin.

I guess around 1 %.

What percentage of revenue is gobbled up by fuel?

Can anyone guess how much it cost to have pi55ed off pilots in charge of the go-go levers, as opposed to pilots who are sharing in the profit of the airline?

Maybe my sarcasm detector is on the fritz, but here goes!!




Firstly, flatly untrue. Pay and conditions are vastly superior virtually everywhere in Europe and in equivelent airlines in America and Asia.

Secondly, so what? There is no such thing as an LCC pilot any more than there is LCC fuel. J* is not competeing only with other LCCs for pilots, but with airlines world wide. I just flew with one of the ten ex VB pilots (and he was a VB Captain) who have come here as FOs, a J* guy just moved in across the street, and we have 8 QF guys in various stages of training as they were sick of their futures being sold down the river by J*.

I qualify for a 787 slot, but I won't be coming as J* DON"T PAY ENOUGH! I know the new Airbus (and soon to be Boeing) CP personally and know his biggest worry is where he is going to find the pilots to fly the big, shiny jets.

UTTER,UTTER,UTTER crap!


Then the LCC model is fataly flawed in Australia.

If CEO pay is the same, why not Pilot pay?

And they should do this why? So AJ can collect his bonus? So lots of OTHER pilots can get low-paid jobs?

We are well into structually creatng a crisis for ALL Australian airlines as there simply isn't the incentive to become a pilot in the first place. Following your logic, we should be going into the schools and saying "PLEASE forget Medicine or Law, we NEED you to come and earn less than half as a J* pilot to ensure our phenominal growth"

Right...:ugh:

fearcampaign,
You are a lost soul.
CEO's should lead by example. Their pay is highly relevant especially when they get massive pay rises.
Don't be so fickle and naive.:suspect:

Did any of you actually read what fearcampaign wrote? Ryanair Captains $250,000, two years to command.

Yes exactley,

If he was just on a fishing expedition, he did a very good job. Sounded JUST sincere enough to be an actual Wally, not just a troll.

If he did suck me in than I guess my reputation as an astute observer is, well, just as non-existant as always!!!:rolleyes:

:cool:

This is the most intelligent post on this thread. :D

SWA is over 40 years old, is highly unionized and is more akin to a legacy carrier than an LCC with regard to labor costs. A more accurate yardstick in North America would be newer airlines such as Westjet, Jetblue, Airtran, Frontier, Virgin America and USA3000. The pay and conditions at these airlines signal a new era in employee remuneration within the industry and compare poorly with the salary levels offered by Jetstar.

The low cost carriers in oz, like other parts of the world, have put pressure on pay and conditions but have also provided more opportunities as city pairs become viable that once were not and frequency is increased on services already flown.

Regulation was a protection racket for the lucky few customers and employees that were involved.

You might care to add "Consistently profitable" to that.

Where as Chapter 11 Bankrupcy protection is a protection racket which kept unprofitable carriers in business and artificially lowerd pay and conditions fopr employees throughout the industry in North america.