Massive QF aircraft orders
 

Just spotted on smh.com
http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/...766735648.html

Qantas has handed down the biggest aircraft order in aviation history, buying up to 188 narrow body aircraft for short haul flights.

The airline said the funding of the purchases won't affect its investment grade credit rating.

The new aircraft will be used to defend Qantas' minimum 65 per cent share of the Australian domestic market and to expand low cost services to South East Asia.

The plan also involves Jetstar opening new regional aviation bases in both Darwin and Perth over the next two years to serve fast growing Asian markets.

Most of the new aircraft will be Boeing 737-800s, and Airbus A320s.

The order also includes larger A321 aircraft, which will have up to 213 seats, compared with 177 on an A320 in a Jetstar single-class configuration.

The first aircraft to arrive in February will be an A321.

"We expect to take at least 17 of those aircraft to expand Jetstar's opportunities in its fastest growing markets," chief executive Geoff Dixon said.

Qantas will acquire 68 A320/A321 aircraft and has 40 options and purchase rights.

It will also buy 31 B737-800 aircraft, and has 49 options and purchase rights.

"The firm aircraft will be delivered over a six year period, while options secured additional delivery slots through to 2017," Qantas said.

Mr Dixon said: "This decision, together with existing A380 and B787 fleet commitments, secures an order stream for next generation aircraft that will allow the group to meet long term demand growth and replace older aircraft over the next decade.

"The plan provides maximum flexibility to respond to changes in the market and competitive situation.

"In an environment where our customers have more options than ever before, this investment will ensure that Qantas and Jetstar continue to provide customers with superior network reach, choice and product."

He said some of the Airbus aircraft would also be used to supply capacity to the group's Asian associates.

Qantas is preparing to receive its first superjumbo A380 aircraft in August 2008.

Jetstar will later launch the B787 Dreamliner to underpin the expansion of its low cost international services.

"We are confident that the orders we have placed provide the right aircraft, with the right product and right economics to ensure the continued success of Qantas and Jetstar both domestically and internationally," Mr Dixon said.

AAP

Look out!!
 

Yeah just read this myself,

Given the worsening situation with crew shortages at the moment, it looks like the bangalorian (can't perform a steep turn or engine out procedure) CPL'ers might be getting an opening here.
Where will Q get the crews to fly them? Or will these be replacing already operational aircraft? I think they may well be "in addition" to the fleet.
Bangalore here we come....

Qantas Unveils Short Haul Fleet Plan For The Next Decade
 

MELBOURNE, 14 November 2007: Qantas today announced that it would acquire up to 188 narrow body aircraft to support the further growth of its two brands, Qantas and Jetstar, in Australia and Asia.

The aircraft will be used to defend a minimum 65 percent Group share of the Australian domestic market and to expand low cost services to South East Asia.

The plan will involve Jetstar opening new regional aviation bases in both Darwin and Perth over the next two years to serve fast growing Asian markets.

Qantas Chief Executive Mr Geoff Dixon said the aircraft would be principally B737-800s, which were Qantas’ main narrowbody aircraft, and A320s, which were the core aircraft in Jetstar’s short haul fleet.

“The order also includes larger A321 aircraft, which will have up to 213 seats compared with 177 on an A320 in a Jetstar single-class configuration,” he said.

“The first aircraft to arrive in February next year will be an A321 and we expect to take at least 17 of those aircraft to expand Jetstar’s opportunities in its fastest growing markets.”

The Group will acquire:
· 68 A320/A321 aircraft, plus 40 options and purchase rights; and
· 31 B737-800 aircraft and 49 options and purchase rights.

The firm aircraft will be delivered over a six year period, while options secured additional delivery slots through to 2017.

Mr Dixon said that the Group had the ability to fund the aircraft without affecting its investment grade credit rating.

“This decision, together with existing A380 and B787 fleet commitments, secures an order stream for next generation aircraft that will allow the Group to meet long term demand growth and replace older
aircraft over the next decade,” Mr Dixon said.

“The plan provides maximum flexibility to respond to changes in the market and competitive situation.
“In an environment where our customers have more options than ever before, this investment will ensure that Qantas and Jetstar continue to provide customers with superior network reach, choice and product.”

Mr Dixon said the B737-800s would all have the latest inflight entertainment technology and would be delivered from early 2009.

“This further investment in the latest aircraft technology will also underpin our efficiency drive by lowering operating costs, while at the same time minimising the Group’s environmental impact as we grow,” he said.

“The B737-800 has a 25 percent lower fuel burn per seat and 30 percent lower maintenance cost compared with older equivalent aircraft.
“The engines for the new aircraft will have improved technology that exceeds all current environmental regulatory standards in relation to both emissions and noise.”

Mr Dixon said the A321 aircraft offered superior seat-kilometre costs and would deliver a further benefit in operational costs for Jetstar.

He said some of the Airbus aircraft would also be used to supply capacity to the Group’s Asian associates.

The order comes as Qantas is preparing to receive its first A380, the flagship of the premium fleet, in August 2008, while Jetstar will subsequently launch the B787 Dreamliner to underpin the expansion of its low cost international services.

“We are confident that the orders we have placed provide the right aircraft, with the right product and right economics to ensure the continued success of Qantas and Jetstar both domestically and internationally,” Mr Dixon said.

Issued by Qantas Corporate Communication (Q3687)
Media inquires: Belinda de Rome – Tel 02 9691 3762

The B738's will replace the B734's (approx 21) in mainline service with the remainder being expansion - good news for mainline crew promotions. By far the biggest expansion is for Jetstar as it appears that all the A320's/A321's are in addition to the existing fleet - some will go to Jetstar Asia/Pacific Airlines (Vietnam). The huge numbers of crews required must be of concern even if most of the F/O positions are filled by graduates of the new QF training courses in conjunction with various tertiary institutions. Having sufficient experienced pilots to upgrade to command status will be the major problem.

Yes GB. And still QLink pilots are walking in droves - mostly to the opposition. All because of no career path existing in the group. Until now its mostly been FO's ready for upgrades. Now there could be a mass of resignations around January. Over 20 of em and ALL CAPTAINS. Lets see em cover THAT in the roster! These blokes are so pissed off theyll only give the minimum notice too.
The only way to stop the bleeding is to OFFER PROGRESSION AND OFFER IT NOW!!.By the time the morons managers do anything all that'll be left are a few old farts & mostly cadets.


See youse!

Darwhine eh....harhar,wheres everyone gonna live? Bagot?

Perhaps they are just buying the production slots as part of some cunning master plan to take over the world?
http://clivedavis.blogs.com/clive/images/dr_evil.jpg
BWAHAHAHA!

Opening Perth and Darwin bases will increase their applications by at least 200 (jet) experienced pilots.

Buster...

Does that mean that Darth is going to clone himself and create Mini Darth.....:yuk:

Buster, would they really be worth ...........ONE MILLION DOLLARS!!!!!!!!!?

:}

TD, I totally agree with you. It's a massive waste of experienced pilots who feel a sense of loyalty to Qantas but having been shafted for so long they are left with no choice but to make their very experienced skills available to other airlines. They leave with the support and best wishes of their peers.

Shouldn't this thread be called Massive JETSTAR aircraft order???

Just where is NJS going to get the pilots to replace the ones that jump ship from??:{:D:E

Guys, c'mon!

Most of your fleet is not exactly new and these aircraft all wont be arriving on the same day. With the price of fuel and the fact that the South East Asian market is ready to grow again, give your leadership some kudos for making a smart business decision. Yeah, the regionals are suffering from a shortage of crew..so what! When I was freshly hired at JFK into the little Jetstream 41 in 1996 we lost 30 captains in 30 days. Most of us upgraded in less than 10 months and the show went on.

I recently flew on QF to Auckland and Sydney, then back to LAX with my three boys. The flights were full and the service was fantastic. The flight attendants were very good with my three year old. I would not even consider flying with any other airline back home. I spoke with several Yanks that were amazed how good it was. They think QF should give lessons over here to the US carriers.

Celebrate the future...it's so bright, you gotta wear shades!

QF mainline:
+ 31 737-800's
- 21 737-400's
= nett gain of 10 aircraft.
Geoff*:
+ 68 A320/321's
- :hmm:
= oh, I give up.
QF F/O's... don't get too excited. :ugh:

Just a quick question. How many of the A320 aircraft are going to go to the Asian operations? I thought I read somewhere that Pacific Airlines was to have 12 aircraft. Be interesting to find out.

Also, Jetconnect. Don't they have 3 734's (and getting one more)? so that means mainline only has 18 734's, right?

Good for both airlines I reckon. As for Jetstar, I think we should find out the breakdown of where the aircraft are going before we get too excited.

The order also includes larger A321 aircraft, which will have up to 213 seats, compared with 177 on an A320 in a Jetstar single-class configuration.



How much do you think the JPC will get (as increased pay) for the increased productivity of it's pilots?
I bet I know the answer.

And we will pay for the privilege!:}

I'd say net gain for mainline = 6 x 738s.

I believe there's 19 734s left flying with mainline, which would be replaced, plus the 5 or 6 over at JetConnect which leaves a net gain for mainline of about 6 a/c. Surely they'll firm up some options before 2017... Right? Right?

Of the 68 for Jetstar there could well be more bound for Singapore not just the new operation in Vietnam. Either way, sounds like there'll be substantial growth for Jetstar.

Funny this, I just posted a question this morning asking when QF were going to order more narrowbodies! :D

OhForSure - this was my reply on that thread
 

I didn't realise how imminent the decision was. If the B737 fleet does increase to 65-70 aircraft then it would be a net increase of 12-17 aircraft. That would allow some promotions but nowhere near what Jetstar will get.

Either way you look at it, its good news.

The latest order for 738's....did QF get them at the same price as they did on the intial batch that were originally AA orders?

Jetstar Asia, Vietnam, are these aircaft that Aussies can fly or do you have to be from singapore or Vietnam national.

As far as domestric market growth is concerned, I dont think we have even scratched the surface of its potential. Every week almost I meet people who in the last 12 months have had their FIRST ever plane ride and they wonder why it took so long to actually travel on a plane. All are planning to do more travel now.

I hope they have booked their maintenace check slots somewhere. They certainly don't have the capability to maintain them in Australia at the moment and don't look like their working to ramp up their facilities/staff numbers at the present time.

Along with seemingly alienating 80% of QF group pilots, QF have pi$$ed off 95% of engineers.

This sort of growth without experienced people as key stakeholders is asking for trouble.

I guess I'm preaching to the converted here.

Qantas Mainline currently have 16 737-400s.

5 737-800s arriving next year.
31 800s from 2009.

Thats a net increase of 20 aircraft.

Lets hope it happens!!

New Zealand.

Initial reports from within say that jetstar are taking over the qantaslink ops in perth and darwin so not many new crews will be needed in those places only down south will we need the addititon crews

nig not nog

nig&nog wrote:

Are you saying that Dixon is going to cancel the contract with NJS, and have Jetstar absorb the QFLink operation?

If that is so and they 'take over' the flight and cabin crew, as well as the airframes, life might start to look brighter again. :E:uhoh:

In 5 years the remaining engineers in QF will be retiring or leaving due to such poor conditions, everyone knows widely there is a pilot shortage, but you dont seem to here as much about the engineering situation, that is dire in QF, At least 50% of the young guys that joined QF Since 1999 have already left to other airlines or out the industry there is simply no one to hand down to now. 380 will also will be outsource due no one being actually available on the inside. So for the remaining pilots flying in the qf fleet you may find yourselves signing your own techlogs mean while enjoying the quality of OS heavy Maint.

. I still have no scope... or understanding of how serious crewing shortages are, and how they will be in the next 1/2 years...

As I'm abroad.. I have no clue. But what it DOES SEEM LIKE to me at the moment that no airline can hack the thought of spending money on training, so they're all starting to FIGHT for the most esperienced people.... Look at one Chinese operator - offering awesome packages for jet drivers...

?? Someone please inform me. :ok: WWA :ok:

it's a good thing that Jackson is going because she seems to be capable of "Double Think" - believing two contrary beliefs at the same time...

Ordering 8 billion in new aircraft requires a somewhat rosy outlook for the future and a very great deal of confidence.................................................. ....................yet:

Please explain????????

Perhaps the best advice for Qantas watchers is "Don't listen to what they say, look at what they do."

I think he's already done that Lobee, but it went horribly wrong & Mini Me ended up with an Irish accent!:E:ouch::suspect:

:rolleyes: Throw me a friggin' bone here people! ;)

B717'S to go
 

correct:eek: jetstar will be taking over the Qantaslink routes in time as NJS was and is a fill in operator tilll the big order was finally announced!! As the 717s made a perfect stop gap, so all u NJS crews will have opportunities in the future. Also believe that the A319 has also been looked at for Qlink ops. 4 of the 734's will be converted for AAe operations when they become available but the suitability of this type for the PER-MEL-PER route still a bother for AAe. Toll are currently looking for a better aircraft for the same route with "surprise :)" the B727 x2 as the best cost for Kg at the moment. But good aircraft hard to source!!!. On the freight front the A320 Conversion has been mooted as a future consideration put forward by Jstar to Qf/AAe. Now theres food for thought:ok:

No mention of any A319's in the order...

a persistent little rumour nonetheless.



Rumour : A piece of information of questionable accuracy, from no known reliable source, usually spread by word of mouth.

Hey! just like the BIG qflink announcement. :ugh:

mavrik1 question #29
 

mavrik1, there is still ample suitable engineering staff in QF at the moment to do the A380.

Yes they are older, but with decades of experience and can adapt in short time to be very proficient,
as has been done in the past. It is just that management want to drive an almighty wedge into the
engineering structure and break its back all for the sake of a few bucks and a bigger bonus. JHAS will help this happen.

If they do as it has been done over the last 50 years, ie train the older experienced LAMES
initially and let natural on the job training filter through the ranks there will be ample guys to fill the boots of the older ones who will leave in the next 10 years.

Do it now or it will be too late.

Older guys have loyalty to the old QF & Super schemes holding them at QF, younger guys have little or no loyalty to hold them there even once trained.
They, QF management, are so blinded by the tripe their bosses feed them and their lack of A/C background will not lead then to this path. Just the path of extinction.

training filter through the ranks. Whhaaaattt.
 

Short Circuit "train the older experienced LAMES initially and let natural on the job training filter through the ranks there will be ample guys to fill the boots of the older ones who will leave in the next 10 years."


Thats half the problem why the young ones arent loyal and leave because you never end up letting young ones filter through to start and gain knowledge on the job. The old boys think they will take thier jobs.

Look at QF MEL, Inter Line Maint, that place is a joke, there's not a bloke in the under 30yrs catergory, young guys are screaming to have a go but they get kept in the hangers, so after 6 to 8 years they tend to leave. Take a look at MEL CX engineering, it is now practically ran by a bunch of ex QF trained youngsters out of the hanger and doing a bloody good job of it, never seen such a learning curve.
They also handle more A/C per head count, run all the station duty's by themselves and have MAS IFE training to carry out that work on transits. Its a pity they have to leave thier own Australian based carrier and go to the Asian opposition just to get the career they well deserve.
The taking under the wing and learn method that was devolped at QF is a thing of the past from where I'm sitting.
Imagine the cost base and performance of QF line Maint if they actively got ame's involved in real line maint at QF(ie, bull**** wing walking), now that would be scary, it would be good to give those old boys some relief aswell, hell the young blood would probably spike up the moral a bit too.
Can only dream.

So you are suggesting that a young AME would be better suited to be trained to introduce new type / generation A/C / with new EASA type licensing system.
That does not compute!
An AME is far better off learning on the job type experience before his / her first type.
There is more to learn than nuts & bolts.
The old blokes won’t be here forever so training will always be ongoing.
From time to time all training stops, how often has that happened,
only to open in a big hurry when, oops, all the licences are deserting, as they are now.
Its just another cycle.
The cycle always go full circle.
Seen it too many times now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mavrik

Short Circuit "train the older experienced LAMES i

---

I think I've read a lot of this before. Wonder where?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SC

So you are suggesting that a young AME would be better suited to be trained to introduce new type / generation A/C / with new EASA type licensing system.

---

Why not?

I don't mean everyone on a new tye should be an 18 year old, but why shouldn't there be a mix of young blokes in there as well?




What do you mean here?

Personally I think that a bunch of young blokes keep the old farts (of who I would be one) happy and the old farts feel happy that the craft is being passed to the young blokes.




Which is why the cycle needs to be broken and get young 'uns in on new types.

OK
 

SC. "If they do as it has been done over the last 50 years, ie train the older experienced LAMES
initially and let natural on the job training filter through the ranks there will be ample guys to fill the boots of the older ones who will leave in the next 10 years."

I know things go in cycles but times are a little different, I'm not saying don't give licences to the older guys and give it to younger ones but the young guys need to be there to pick up the experience to even be able to use a Licence effiecently. There are young guys with Licences but they wouldn't even no what to do with them in a Line Maint enviroment because they were not brought up on that scene. A AME can do everything except sign the book. Wouldn't that be easier on the older guys. There are still not going anywhere.

Most of the A/C types at QF will still out service the careers of the majority of current senior guys at QF. So whats wrong with them seeing the old gens out and passing a new gen to some young blokes who can prove themselves, at least they can grow with that type and be able to service it into the long future without hand me down experience from the older chaps. You all know how much can be learnt from new types going into service.
It is cost affective aswell, when one guy with a huge pay scale leaves another ame comes on line to play keeping costs down and with more people on the line. We still need the brains of the older guys but the young guys will carry them. What a great learning enviroment.
But I'm dreaming again.

Aircraft Orders
 

No one to my knowledge has mentioned the possibility that many of the aircraft options could be used for leasing purposes in a separate entity owned by the QF group.

Aircraft such as the 787 and others will not be easy to source quickly, hence having access to these aircraft via a leasing company makes good business sense.
DAE capital has done this and it was talked about in the APA takeover of Qantas.
Time will tell but do you think the Australian market is large enough for all these new aircraft plus options?

Fourth hand information suggests that the nett increase of 737 airframes in mainline will be 20. No mention over what time frame this will be.