Asic - The Great Con Job
 

AUSTRALIAN ASIC - The Big Con Job
Well, I totally agree with Transport Security, however the ASIC is one of the greatest con jobs bestowed upon the Australian Aviation Industry EVER!

Division 3.2, subsection 3.05 of the Transport Security Regulations 2005 EXEMPT and I mean EXEMPT the crew of FOREIGN AIRLINES from having an Australian issued ASIC!

NO BACKGROUND CHECKS...NO ASIO CLEARANCE...NO AFP CHECK...NO CRIMMINAL HISTORY...HA..HA..HA

They like everybody else in the Aviation World (except Australia)only have to display a COMPANY ISSUED ID CARD.

Well mateys.....these airlines (foreign) carried more than 20 million passengers IN/OUT of Australia LAST YEAR!!!!!! and in BIG PLANES.

Write to your Federal Member of Parliament and get the Regs changed....why do we have to put up with this crap in Australia....if you are approved to operate an aeroplane in Australia then the COMPANY should be able to issue THEIR OWN ID CARD....NO MORE WANK ASIC'S....THATS THE WAY IT IS ALL OVER THE WORLD...

Just like the new regs for alcohol/drugs testing....act now or forever be bloody silent!

EMU787: In Cathay we are issued a company ID card but it's only "in house" company use.
For airside use we are issued an "ICAO" card by the HK CAD (civil aviation dept)
A pretty average looking thing but not issued by CX
To my mind a proper Aussie style, official looking ASIC is a good idea.
QF, ( including QLINK ) VB, etc already issue their own don't they?

What about GA private pilots that don't have a "company" to issue theirs?

Company ID will be same format
 

The company ID will be of a prescribed format ie.same as the current ASIC and it will be worn and produced as prescribed......

the point is if its good enough for the goose then its good enough for the gander and will not cost $190 and will be valid as long as you are employed.....a far safer and cost effective model than five government departments running around trying to administer an idea somebody dreamt up but did not think about it.....

dont forget....foreign pilots and cabin crew are flying 20 million pax in and out of Australia every year......NO ASIC...NO BACKGROUND CHECKS...........so whats the bloody point!

As for ACMS.....99% of the worlds aviation use and accept company issued ID cards!

As for Airport Staff...the same goes.....its up to the company to administer as per the prescribed regulations.

I will stand by my comment....its just another bloody government con job!

How about Australia insist on issuing ASIC Cards for all foreign aircrew that operate into Australia?

And then the USA can issue their equivalent card for entry into the States. And the UK can do the same, and so on?

Each aircrew person could accumulate as many cards as necessary for each of the foreign countries into which they operate, and merely change to the appropriate card on arrival?

Everyone would be happy and security would be most certainly assurred.

There is absolutely no way a terrorist could defeat such a wonderful system?

Now that's what I call a "flexible response" :}

$$$$$$$$ Asic $$$$$$$$
 

Thank you for your replies....don't forget about the COST mateys....over a ten year period without inflation the industry who did not ask for this impost will fork out more than $50 Million....why....why.....if its so important then I will say again why don't foreign crew need one ?????? carting more than 20 million passengers each year.

$50 million dollars could be spent on SAFETY !!! I bet I could do the same type of card in the same prescribed format for under $10....thats a saving to the DOMESTIC aviation industry of about $48 Million dollars over 10 years......the greatest con ever but I am sure there is more coming!

EMU787: mate the overseas operators have cards approved by ICAO. Issuing states have an obligation to carry out background security checks before issuing said cards.
Australia is no different in issuing it's ASIC, it's recognized by ICAO and valid around the world when used in the course of your employment.

ok

Does anyone recall if CASA issued instructions to return the card upon expiry or if no longer needed? I can't remember if there were instructions on the application or with the card when it arrived.

It is certainly a legislated requirement though under ATSRs.

Islander
Just reading the card that came with my new ASIC from Aviation ID Aust.
states, "you must return your ASIC to Av ID Aust if:
your ASIC has Expired
you are notified your ASIC has been cancelled
it has been defaced
you no longer need it"

Guess that answers the question I asked on another thread.
s'ppose I'm like all blokes, If all else fails,read the instructions:uhoh:

Frothy

Thanks Frothy,
I couldn't remember getting anything with my card from CASA but I'm sure that being as efficient as they are they would have sent a similar notice. :rolleyes:

I've actually had it put on the back of the cards we are issuing from now on.

The price of freedom!

:yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::mad:

My ASIC expired in May. So I puts it in an envelope and I sends it back to CASA. Dunno if they even got it...:ooh:

Company issued
 

:=
ACMS.....you obviously have been led up the same garden path as all the other pilots in Australia....believing something that is not actually happening.

I am sure the necessary crew checks and measures are conducted in every airline and country throughout the world...........not likely mate.

and of course ICAO is a complete success.....not only with security but also airport standards, operator standards, maintenance standards......on and on we could go.

I fly internationally with just a company issued photo ID card mate and its accepted at all airports accross the world on a daily basis....god knows what spoonfed organisation you come from.....but then again you are one of the "believers"

Right now Iam in Europe...airside...with my COMPANY ISSUED ID CARD!!:ugh:

Kookabat CASA will only accept that expired ASIC for $130. Thats made up of $120 to open the envelope and $10 to chop the asic up with a shredder.

EMU787:........yes I work for a really backward "spoonfed operation" called CX. ( if you'd bothered to read my posts you'd know that already )
Mate settle down, if your company ID card is accepted by all airports around the world it must be an approved one. I know for a fact that the one I wear in CX is approved by all the airports we fly into and I must display it whilst in the course of my duty. SIMPLE REALLY.
It's no different to other areas in Aviation. If Thai fly into Australia they are approved to do so by CASA, who have done the required checks on their operation ( engineering, flt crew, ID cards etc ) and that they comply with all the ICAO requirements.

The ID card is just one small part of the picture.

I would imagine that CASA do a thorough check of all airlines flying into Australia. And they conduct random RAMP CHECKS.

ASIC...the great con and ripoff
 

:=QUOTE ACMS:"I would imagine that CASA do a thorough check of all airlines flying into Australia. And they conduct random RAMP CHECKS......."

well old mate exactly you said.... "I would imagine that CASA do a thorough check..." you have chosen a very good selection of words.....do you really think CASA closely monitor the crew security background checking of every airline carrying the 20 million plus passengers IN/OUT of Australia. Do you really think that. You might want to believe that but mate its not a reality.

CASA cant even get their act together to process their own ASIC renewals...they just don't have the budget or staff....mate you live in a bloody fantasy land.

ACMS, under the aviation Chicago Convention of 1948 each and every contracting State just looks after its own backyard and they DO NOT go snooping around all the in-bound airlines paperwork etc....that would take a staff of a 1000 and anyhow they would be just shown bullsh..t paperwork and would upset many foreign Airlines management....who do you think CASA are....some GOD LIKE creature with powers to transgress international boundaries.

These are the people mate that were closely monitoring the safety standards and of course the ID cards integrity of GARUDA while they carried hundreds of thousands of OZ passengers in apparent total flight safety !!!! I suggest you put your hand back on the proper stick.

You mention Thai...its all in the Thai language for christ sake !!!

As for my company issued photo ID card....it is not an ICAO card with the little lines in the background but IS accepted wherever I go....all over the world mate....maybe at your CX induction course the security people just wanted to make you feel all warm and cosy.

Lets get back to the original thread....IF WE ARE LICENCED TO OPERATE AEROPLANES AND CHOOSE THE CREW WE WANT AND CARRY PASSENGERS WHEREVER THEN WE SHOULD BE BLOODY WELL APPROVED TO DO OUR OWN ASSESSMENT OF THE SUITABILITY OF OUR OWN STAFF....NOT FIVE LOOSELY CONTROLLED AND UNLINKED GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS ripping us off for $190 every second year.

CASA, I believe have a lawful DUTY to monitor pilots as they progress through the years, they can do this quietly behind the scenes with State and Federal police forces...its their job as the regulator.... but for us to sit down and fill out crap pages of information every two years, get stuffed around like you would not believe and then get ripped off for $190 for a 50 cent card is down right disgraceful and need parliament intervention NOW.

So ACMS I suppose you don't have to worry really as I am sure CX pay for all your cards anyhow....$190 buys school books and shoes mate !!!:ugh:

Geez emu. Getting a bit heated there aren't you mate?
We're all frustrated by the inconsistencies with aviation security but no need to take it out on other posters here because they have a different perspective on the overall picture to yourself.

I have been a licensed pilot since 1987 and a CPL since 1996. If I was going to fly my Cessna/Piper/Boeing/Airbus whatever into a building you would think I would have done it by now? Why am I now suddenly considered a threat after years of government scrutiny? It is not like I have just arrived here?

Stupidity in the extreme is the ASIC system.:mad:

We have no choice but to comply but we all have a duty to resist!

Z.:ugh:

Zhaadum, Well done!!! The real perspective of the whole mess.

Without stating the obvious...Emu, you are an idiot, get off your high horse/kangaroo/emu or whatever, and take a chill pill buddy.
Every ICAO signatory country is required to provide aircrew with the relevant ID......but I suspect you knew this already.

Sounds more like a typical xenophobic argument parceled up to suit your own pathetic agenda.
You need to get out more mate :yuk:

Asic - the great con and ripoff
 

well well, obviously mate you are another spoonfed person who can't see beyond your nose.......$190 for what mate....we did not ask for it so why should we pay for it (ASIC) matey.

They (the 5 government departments behind this debacle) can do it themselves (the security checking) without us being involved and without us paying for it.

And I will repeat it once again...AIRSIDE EUROPE WITH MY COMPANY ISSUED AVIATION ID CARD....yes thats what I call getting out there mate!

Next time mate read the thread!

I particularly enjoyed the reference to foreign crews....:hmm:

Asics the great ripoff and con job
 

:=:=Hello Haughtney1 and ACMS....

well well if you look up the Australian Transport Security Regulations 2005, page 74, subsection 3.05. subparagraph a(ii) you will note that:

....the Foreign Crews who carry the 21 million passengers in/out of AUSTRALIA every year mateys only have to display a COMPANY ISSUED ID CARD !!! its in the Regs.

And for you blind believers....NO MENTION OF ICAO cards mates....both of you have been misled obviously.

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander......replace ASICS with company issued ID card at 1/10th of the cost and stuffups.

Those faceless people who think we are all crooks can do whatever behind the scenes because THEY ARE CERTAINLY NOT DOING IT TO ALL THE THOUSANDS OF FOREIGN CREW and I dont expect them to either as they can't even handle the ones they have got.

Lets get a level playing field!......ALL or NONE...the great aviation con.:ugh:

Emu, to quote an oft used recommendation by a couple of other very wise PPRUNERs. "Take a Bex and have a lie down".

Believe it or not, there are far more significant problems in ATSRs and associated compliance. People throwing their teddy out of the cot and screaming "don't want to" or "can't make me" doesn't even register in the grand scheme of things.

I have people working around me probably earning far less than your good self who acknowledge and fully accept the need for the card. Before you continue on your tyrade about being conned by govt or other conspiracty theories they are in fact very normal and rational every day folk.

Asic the great con and ripoff
 

hello islander jock.....interesting that you find time to tell me to take a bex but you cant put positive pen to paper and have an informative and mature discussion about this subject that will eventually...directly...cost the industry/pilots more than 130 million dollars over a 20 year period.

its obvious you dont pay for your ASIC!

sad to say but the ASIC system of checking ONLY domestic pilots is a con job and a ripoff!:ugh::ugh:

and NO, I don't need a bex, it might cause me to test positive in the company D & A tests.

Thank christ I am in Europe...AIRSIDE....with my COMPANY issued ID card that costs less than $10.

Emu,

A good deal of my day is spent in direct contact with senior DOTARS and airline security staff discussing these and other security matters and the inherent problems they create .

Does an ASIC make aviation any safer? Probably not. But it does provide a system whereby anyone who gets their hands on an Australian registered aircraft as PIC to fly to a security controlled airport has been suitablly checked. It is on that basis then that we can perhaps argue more convincingly to remove the requirements for making pilots go through the ludicrous screening process at airports. You can't have it both ways... no screening and no ASIC. I reckon if you asked the majority, they would tell you they would much rather have the little plastic card on a lanyard around their neck as opposed to continually emptying their pockets, taking their belts and shoes off and going through metal detectors.

As much as it frustrates, ranting and raving on PPRUNE will have as much effect of changing the rules as p1ssing yourself in a wetsuit. You will get a short term warm sensation but no one will probably notice. We can maybe argue about the price but as AUSCHECK have just been through a very thorough process of full disclosure of costs to implement the program, I don't think you are going to see much movement there either. A fairer system surely would be to maybe make it a 5 year life as for the MSIC.

Not that it's really relevant to this topic but yes I do in fact pay for my own ASIC.

Emu,

Just a stupid question. If you are indeed in Europe and work and live there, why do you care two beans about the ASIC process/debacle/ (insert appropriate emotive word here)?

Surely you can't be serious?

You seem particularly upset for an (alleged) observer from afar.:bored:

Z.:hmm:

I tend to agree with our British Aviations Finest Jockey. Why can't the ASIC's be 5 years and if you did something stupid or dodgy you have to tell them anyway. The other piece of reform I'd like to see would be, no drama with full price for initial issue but renewals should be cheaper and not involve the same convoluted multi agency clearences that have already been done. Nothing like handing in your old one then waiting 8 weeks for the new one to get some perspective, especially when the old one was still valid.

As to other nationals coming into our airports with company issued cards, one must always remember security is not always seen. There are many ways to skin a cat and people might not be completely aware of the things that are done to make us safer. I'd like to think we're smarter than checking cards.

I do remember wandering around the odd middle east aerodrome with a company card and no one blinked an eye. They just pointed the semi's at me and asked what the strange aircraft did.:O

Regardless of whether ASICS are good or not sleepers would be able to get one anyway and work their way up to a flying position in a commercial jet. As much as the media like to make out most terrorists have no blots on their record at all, for a deliberate reason, because it will arouse suspicion. If CASA was serious about security they would mandate double cockpit doors because you dont need to be an ASIC holder to be a passenger and it is still highly vulnerable with that door opening and closing all the time. Still that wont stop a sleeper being in the cockpit at least its a start though

ASIC is all about red tape which has spiralled out of control the last decade or so, most of the damn politicians studied law thats why we find ourselves in this debacle. just my 0.25% rate rise worth! :E


Note :Edited for spelling

IJ.
That is only going to benefit a small percentage of Australian pilots who actually operate from major airports.
It will do nothing for the large majority who are saddled with the idiotic ASIC requirements that presume we are dangerous individuals, requiring biannual loyalty checks so we can stop off at places like Coober Pedy or Halls Creek.
Bah..

Biggles,
Agree fully mate. You would't believe the outback buttf*&k places you are required to have an ASIC. The best we could possibly hope for though is either some reduction in the fees or increase in the validity period. Otherwise short of some major shift in the thinking by those with a vested interest in all of us sticking to the status quo, we are going to see ASICs around for a very long time indeed. Nothing would make me happier to be proved wrong on that point.

I too am airside overseas with an asic card and heavy vehicle drivers licence issued in NSW. Have a guess which card every one is accepting, you guessed it they have no idea what to do with an asic card,or even what it is.They take all my details from my drivers licence(which actually does have information about me on it!!!!!)
My asic card now resides in my brief case at the hotel, while my drivers licence is now in my asic card holder!!!!!!
Right or wrong the asic card is not working and we already have that much ID required today it is just another case of beaurocracy gone mad, what with Passport, drivers licence, boat licence, pilots licence,Asic, work cover machinery licence, nurseing licence etc etc etc. Just replace it with one card for everything, just imagine one set of checks, one form to fill out etc etc etc, anyway I think you get my drift.
I WOULD MUCH PREFERRE TO FILL OUT ONE FORM EVERY FIVE YEARS AND NOT FIVE FORMS EVERY YEAR.

Ascic Cards
 

:DCrickey emu787 you hit the nail on the head,There should be a national revolt,enough is enough,We should all get behind emu and boycott this dumd card,My drivers licence has more authority overseas air side than this ASCIC CARD.$190 is joke,Typical of gov dept.

Hello is there anybody out there!!!!
I was hoping that this would get debated some more, as I believe that My experiences have shown how floored this Asic issue really is. Security is needed but not just with aviation or the fuel industry or the fertiliser industry etc etc etc. So lets get something that works for all under 1 umbrella instead of every goverment body doing their own thing at the cost of the Australian people.

Sorry Murlow,

But political expediency demands that "special" attention (over and above "everyday" things like drivers' licences) needs to be given and provided for in times of "crisis" to address issues of closing the gate after the horse has bolted.

Then of course, special rules are introduced to ensure that such politicians involved are not inconvenienced by those same rules that are applicable to everyone else.

"Four legs good, two legs bad!"

P *&^&%& Off
 

Yes I cannot agree more with you FLEX, but while you have gotten over it and are able to smile now, I'm still on the raging bull path (I do envey you). I am just sick and tired of the government using my (OUR) money with no regard to what is working or indeed what is already in place and working but may only need a little add on. What I am saying is have One security check for all, why is aviation so special that it has to be on its own. It is about time our industry came out of the dark ages and grew up and fitted in with the rest of Australian industry ( so CASA get a grip Aviation in Australia is only pimple on the arse of the universe). Remember it is my drivers licence that is WORKING not that stupit grease scraper(ASIC).But I suppose if they listened to me poor OLD CASA would not have much to do!!

Oz went the expensive way
 

Emu has a point, ASIC has cost the industry heaps & the fees are a burden on the individual pilot. No doubt these fees in Australia will increase over time.

It did not have to be that way.

Even after the terrible events of 9/11, when the TSA "tookover" US airport security, there was a similar scheme suggested, however the final (sensible) codified regulation is that an FAA airmans certificate is only valid with photo ID. This ID includes Company ID, a driver license or passport etc.

There is still no fee for the FAA to issue licenses, or ratings etc, let alone medical certificates, however if you need a replacement certificate, you need to send (or credit card on their website) US$2.00 (same fee for 20 years) and they will send you via first class mail a new plastic hologramed license featuring Orville & Wilbur Wright in commemoration of 100 years of powered flight.

Being a foreign carrier driver (Non US), my regulator and airline issues lots of paper/plastic etc. but I don't have to pay for it.

Asic - the great con job and ripoff
 

well they fought in two world wars to preserve democracy but where is the democracy when they (the blunt minded sharp penciled bureaucrats) dictate that YOU WILL WEAR IT AND YOU WILL PAY FOR IT.....is that democracy or dictatorship?

While we the domestic pilots are subject to dictatorial regulations the foreign crew who carry more than 20 million passengers in/out of Australia every year only have to wear a COMPANY issued $2 ID Card.

How about a National NO ASIC day....no problem for security...we will be denied access and told to go home and the only planes flying will be the INTERNATIONAL planes with crew that don't have ASIC's .....what will the public say to the Minister then!!!!!!!!:=

As a "foreigner" I needed an ASIC to fly GA in OZ. So I applied, and after a couple of months they wrote to me and said words to the effect, "you're foreign, we need two primary methods of ID and three secondary."

OK says I, have a UK passport for one, and as I don't have an Oz driving licence, how about a current ICAO flight crew ID card? It must show that at least some suitable background check has been done on me. (Note, ICAO card, not Company ID.)

Ooooh not in the regulations that one. Do you have an Australian utility bill with your name on it? Ummm, no. But how on earth can a utility bill have a higher security clearance than an ICAO ID? Maybe if I wear my electric bill round my neck I will be let airside?

We eventually agreed on my local DAME writing on a piece of paper with his stamp that I am who I am, and that was accepted as my second primary ID.

Pity my AME's name wasn't Osama al Charlatan or similar, which would have got Canberra going for a while...

My ASIC expires in December. Is it worth renewing or will New Labour trash the idea?

moosp,
Complaints and frustrations about the worth and necessity of an ASIC aside, and yes I do believe they are a bloody waste of time. Your best bet to renew your ASIC would be to go through www.aviationidaustralia.net.au Do NOT repeat NOT apply through CASA. Issuing ASICs is not part of their core business and this is reflected in the fact that they are probably the most inefficient Issuing Authorty of all.