AIPA to represent ALL Qantas Group Pilots
 

From the following decision: http://www.airc.gov.au/decisionssign...007airc420.htm

What about ONE union for ALL Pilots?:ugh:

Gee, you gotta be quick round here! The email from AIPA only just appeared in my inbox!

As for:

Totally agree, but this has to be a step in the right direction. Bring it on!

A great result for Qantas group pilots. With the recent decision by Jetstar to commence the screwing of their own staff hopefully this will convince Jetstar pilots that a unified stance will bear more fruit than going it alone.

Oldmeadow will be choking on his Chateaubriand!!

[84] Mr Borenstein referred to several AIPA newsletters and other announcements to support the AFAP’s contention that the AIPA is only interested in looking after the interests of Qantas pilots and that where their interests clash with those of Jetstar pilots, the interests of the former will prevail

Yeah - It doesn't mean that AIPA is the best choice though.

what about one union for ALL qantas group staff

"AIPA to represent ALL Qantas Group Pilots"?

:hmm:

Did you guys READ the decision? Don't give up your day jobs, lads. This decision means NONE of the above.

Previously, JQ pilots could choose to be members of the AFAP or the TWU if they wanted. They could not join and be represented by AIPA before this decision. Now they can. QFLink pilots can now join and be represented by AIPA as well.

This is not a move towards one union. It is the opposite -- More choices, not "one union."

Kaufmann makes the point at 87 of his decision that what he heard "suggests that airline pilots are industrially astute.

"In my view, the mere extension of the scope of the AIPA’s eligibility rule will not lead to pilots from Jetstar, Eastern or other airlines joining it unless they are satisfied that their industrial interests can be better catered for by the AIPA than by the AFAP or some other group."

Kaufmann anticipates that we pilots will throw our lot in with whichever organisation we think will get us the best outcome, at our airline.

Given that VB, Skywest, Alliance, Ozjet and NJS pilots are excluded from representation by AIPA by the new paragraphs IX and X, my conclusion is that this decision prevents "one union" for all aussie pilots. There will be at least two, probably three, with unequal coverage ('market share') within each airline.

More choices does not lead to "one provider." Example - mobile telephone service providers. Ever tried to get all your mates onto the one phone service? Hey guys, everybody get onto Vodaphone pre-pay, free calls between vodaphone mobiles! If all your mates, work colleagues, family, etc bit the bullet you would never pay more than the minimum monthly fee.

But it would never happen. Each provider (telstra, optus, aapt, vodaphone, etc, etc, etc) would have a share of the action. Some bigger, some smaller, but no monopoly. Pepsi still has a share of the cola market. Marmite and Dick Smith spread are still on supermarket shelves and being bought in (small) quantities.

No matter how hard Ian Woods and his team lobby and cajole JQ and QFLink pilots, it will be up to the pilots to choose which union they join, if they join at all.

This decision means that some JQ pilots will be AIPA, some others AFAP, some others just JPC, or nothing at all.

So lets not get too excited.

I have not seen the document and am a litle dismayed that AIPA cant represent all pilots.Why is this so!As a vb pilot I would be happy to become one union asap.

Remember, "it's all about choice".

The Jetstar Pilot Crucifiers. Oh dear.

This was never about AIPA getting coverage of all pilots. AIPA only set out to gain coverage of Qantas group pilots that flew "their routes". See Kaufmann at his paragraph 66.

That is what they wanted, and that is what they won.

Coverage of VB/Skywest/NJS pilots on domestic and regional routes, coverage of freighter pilots etc. was not the objective.

If anything, by initiating and continuing with expensive legal action with wall-to-wall silk against a 'competing' pilot union, the AIPA has soured relations with the one other big pilot union in this country, and put the 'one pilot union' concept back several steps.

You guys at VB (AFAP membership 475 out of 560-580 pilots) stand to lose as many as 383 paid up AFAP members in sunnies, eastern and jetstar to AIPA. That is a huge potential loss of subscriptions, and therefore union resources. Will the AFAP be able to offer you the support you enjoy now, however flawed? Can you go and join the 'big guys' at AIPA?

No, you can't. Thats for QF group pilots only.

LOL whatever and you think AIPA could achive coverage of all pilots in 1 case?? haha you are out of your depth! The government has made this a difficult case and AIPA is working step by Step to try and incorporate all pilots into their coverage if they choose, but I can guarantee they cant do it in one swoop, the Workchoices has made it a minefield.

AIPA has a responsiblity to cover groups that are doing their own routes, that is a fact, but I believe AIPA is seeking coverage for all pilots ultimately, but its not a simple thing!

Strewth, talk about 'slant'.

If this was about giving people the option of what union to join then why was the AFAP so against AIPA being part of that choice? If I understand this correctly the AFAP was part of the case going against AIPA that they be able to represent all group pilots. If AFAP is so crash hot at representing their members then surely those QF group members who didn't like the AIPA representation would vote with their feet and go to AFAP anyway.....and that means that the 'choice' between AFAP and AIPA would have no reason to be opposed by the AFAP.

The reality is that AFAP also lined up some silks and are as much a part of the problem of 'one pilot union' as AIPA- although at least AIPA is working towards an initial starting point that all those who are employed in the same group have the option of being represented by the same association irrespective of what part of the group they work for.

I have no idea if this is just the first step of a wider uber-association that has coverage of GA and so on but I do know that it's a heck of a good start for [i]all[/] QF group pilots. What I find disappointing is that if I decided to go to DJ that I could no longer be a part of AIPA.

As a solution to ITCZ's second last paragraph, perhaps you should be talking to your AFAP reps and telling them to talk to AIPA. I sent an email to an AIPA VP last week about this very issue to find that the door has been effectively shut in our faces for the time being- due to AFAP's opposition to the AIPA submission to be able to represent the group pilots. My email to the VP will be a monthly affair to find out what AIPA is doing to ensure that we are working together- if not part of the one association, at least as members of associations that share information.

So, if you want the pilot groups in Australia to be one then you need to send the message to YOUR representatives that this is what YOU want. I made the mistake of not continuing to engage with a former AIPA President when he told me that AIPA would not be seeking coverage of Impulse and regional crew. I'll not make the same mistake again.

The ball on this is in OUR (pilots collectively) court.

Keg, you and I normally get along, so maybe this is a case of us both having a bit of 'slant.'

AIPA spun off from AFAP many moons ago to represent QF international pilots, when that was all QF flew, international. AFAP then focussed on representing domestic, regional and GA pilots.

AFAP cops a hiding in the dispute. Maybe the domestic pilots played it wrong, but a hiding it was. AFAP builds itself up again carefully over 15 years, a once-proud organisation that was nearly consigned to oblivion, and finds its feet. Helped immensely by the arrival of VB, it starts putting on more industrial staff, and the increased subs put the organisation back on a sound footing, and it starts kicking goals again.

Over fifty years of history and organisational knowledge about winning and defending conditions for pilots. Not always perfect, true. But don't forget that it was the foundations laid by the Federation under Dick Holt's leadership that made Pilot a professionally recognised and rewarded occupation. A foundation that AIPA inherited.

So for a good thirty years, fifteen of those being very hard times, the AFAP is looking after members in a number of organisations, AIPA looks after QF mainline pilots.

Now along comes Jetstar, poses a threat to the careers and lifestyles of QF pilots, AIPA decides there is a problem.

AIPA looks at QF regionals and Jetstar and says -- something needs to be done about these guys, JQ in particular. Does AIPA go to the Federation and say "hey, you guys already have coverage of 124 of the 360 odd JQ pilots, what can we do together to solve this problem?'

No. No consultation there from what I have heard.

Did AIPA go to the Federation and say "hey, you guys already have a solid 255 members out of 305 Sunstate and Eastern pilots already organised, what can we do together to solve this problem we have?"

No. In fact, a hair-brained scheme to get AIPA 'assistance' in the last EBA negotiation results in Eastern pilots losing thousands of dollars each in back pay, and the shiny new D8-400 goes to Sunnies. Nice job.

Did AIPA respond to a big call for assistance from Jetstar pilots?

No. And boy do the Jetstar guys clearly remember the rebuff they got from AIPA.

So, as far as it looks from where I sit, rather than 'team up' with a re-invigorated AFAP to solve the problem together, AIPA decided that it would compete for coverage.

What did they expect the AFAP to do? Give up coverage of two of their leading workplaces, sever their ties to men and women they had fought for for years, and not least, give up the subscription income of around 400 members that would gross $300k per annum and start trimming back their newly acquired capabilities?

It was AIPA that mounted the challenge and sought the rule change. It was AIPA that brought it into the world of wigs and gowns and $1,000hr advocates.

Keg, you and I appear to be on the same page re the desireability of one big union to effectively represent all pilots. Be assured that I am making my views known at my outfit. But please do not ignore the events leading up to this point. You would be familiar with the story of the prodigal son. Recall the protestations of the faithful son to the father, then you might understand why an AFAP guy is annoyed by the AIPA moves. GA and regionals and the sundry jet operators are AFAP territory, and AFAP was doing hard yards for them before they became a 'problem' for QF pilots.

AIPA might do good for JQ crews, I hope they do. Just don't pretend that AIPA haven't jumped into AFAP territory and that AIPA didn't do damage to a union it should have been aligned with. We won't get any further if you don't acknowledge that.

ITCZ, I can understand your viewpoint but you need to be able to see it from a QF pilots point of view as well.

The AIPA rebuff of Impulse pilots that you bring up, the person responsible and the reasons for it are well known. You may use it to attack AIPA now, but most reasonable people see it for what it was. I was personally appalled when it occurred, most ordinary QF pilots were likewise. You can continue to use it if you like, but it is a low point of history that the current AIPA COM has battled constantly to redress.

Jetstar pilots were offered help. The JPC were using AIPA offices and resources as they were working behind AIPA's back to secure the LCC flying.

The main point is that all QF group pilots have to work together to end the very successful divide and rule strategies of Oldmeadow and Dixon. This is a great first step. The Group Opportunity List would be the icing on the cake but that won't happen unless we all finally learn that fellow pilots are not the enemy.

Jetstar is a fact of life. AIPA cannot stop Jetstar International. They realise that. The Federal court determination about the Sale Act won't stop Jetstar International no matter which way it goes. It will stop Jetstar from being hived off for sale if it goes the way AIPA wants it, but that is all.

Most QF guys would be happy to spend part of their careers flying for Jetstar if the barriers of the MOU were loosened and rates they fly under were more representative of market rates. They realise that mainline rates are a pipedream but working together we can get the Jetstar rates to something approximating what they should be. Talk about abour win/win!

Most QF guys would see this as a great first step in a process that should have been enacted years ago. The AFAP and AIPA should now get together and make AusALPA the umbrella organisation we all desperately need. That is the one union for all pilots.

ITCZ, thanks for the reasoned response.

As you say I suspect that we're actually advocating the same thing. You're right about the history- particularly the AFAP side of the coin- and that I don't know it all and particularly don't know a great deal about the split in '81 (or was it '83- either way I wasn't yet in my teen years) or the intracisies of '89 although having done a uni assignment on it I at least consider myself to be 'educated' on what happened but possibly not fully aware of the role that AIPA played in all of that.

I guess my frustration is that both AFAP and AIPA probably share the responsibility for a poor relationship over time and that attempts by one group or another to paint AIPA as the big, bad ogre who only care about J*, QFlink et al because QF drivers are now at risk as being an overtly simplistic view of the future.

I'll continue to write to my AIPA reps to tell them to work with AFAP. I hope you do the same with your AFAP guys. At the end of the day I don't care what the name of my association is as long it represents all parts of my 'group'. Longer term I'd like it to represent every driver in Australia. Whether that's AIPA or AusALPA I don't care.

Have a great day.

A matter of trust (or lack thereof )
 

Have to agree with all and sundry that one voice is required for all. However, as a non Qantas type I just do not trust AIPA to represent my best interests. Without a doubt their mandate is Qantas, Qantas, Qantas, and all others are some way back in the rear view mirror. Am I wrong in this thought? I don't know. I want to subscribe to a unified organisation especially since my lot has just announced the AWA bulldust, but who do you trust.

Perhaps AIPA may somehow be able to convince those of us who feel as I do. To date they have done a lousy job at it!!!!!!!!!!!:bored::bored::bored::bored:

AIPA representing Qantas Qantas Qantas is their biggest mistake and the reason other pilots will backstab these arrogant turkeys.

When this group of pilots and their union want to have ALL pilots in the one union we have half a chance.

Bring on the AIPA and AFAP merger and label non members as scabs. :D

One small step for man.
Yes it is all about choice. Choice to be represented by who you want. AIPA is now providing an alternative for Qantas group pilots.
We can all continue the bitch session or, alternatively, look at the AIPA plan for the way forward, which encompasses all Qantas group pilots interests.
Unfortunately instant 400 commands are not available, but a plan that recognises all involved, unlike the clusterf*(k we have at the moment with seperate pilot bodies and negotiating parties.

Hear what you are saying El K. Perhaps this is the beginning of an association that will exist along the longs of Balpa in the UK? Who knows.
Perhaps time for VIPA and AIPA to be talking as well.

Can I start by saying what a great idea, one union representing the needs of the true collective regardless of airline.

However I would like to pose this question.

Regardless of the unions ability to have coverage of membership, is there still not a problem with access to negotiations without having the prior "party" status to the agreement under negotiation ?

I ask this almost rhetorically as I am sure that eventhough a union has membership coverage and indeed members, that does not mandate the said employer (being the other party to the agreement) to allow or even accept the "new" union into the negotiatons.

I should clarify my only source for this information/opinion is the EAA pilots fiasco and the refusal of management to allow the union at the table.

ignorance
 

ITCZ,
you're comments relating to why Eastern pilots didn't get backpay or 400's shows your considerable lack of knowledge on this subject.

The "hair brain" scheme was bourne out of frustration with a union (AFAP) that, in the opinion of many, has underperformed for years.

Ironically the industrial staff at the AFAP always say "the Federation is the pilots", yet the industrial staff refuses to take direction from the pilots paying their wages.

The EBA was voted down for the same reassons the VB one was: because it was a bad deal.

The 400 wasn't even on the AOC till 2007, so it wasn't coming anytime soon around 2005 when the EBA was voted on.

All this decision is about is choice. For too long the Federation have enjoyed a monopoly, and with the protection of that monopoly they have treated their membership with contempt. Eventually enough EAA guys decided to seek an alternative.

If the AFAP had spent half the time, money and effort helping Eastern pilots as they have fighting this case no-one would have wanted to leave the AFAP in the first place, because they would have been effectively representing their members.

It's funny that the AFAP President has already written they expected to lose this case. If that was so, why spend all the members' money fighting it? Surely they should have been concentrating on providing a better service than AIPA. If they did this they might retain their membership.

You don't see Mcdonalds suing Hungry Jacks for making hamburgers, they just try and make a better burger. In the end you get the choice of where to eat.:rolleyes:

El Kabong,

I understand your caution, however I've never found anything other than dedication amongst the AIPA committee people .. even if I disagreed with them or found them outright dunces.

The point?

My observation is that AIPA does not have an agenda to rule the world. They just want to do the right thing.


Yeah, pillory me for being innocent, however I have known some of the people in AIPA for ... ooh ... mayday ... 30 years? ... They are decent people.

Take it for what you will ....

N

WK, my comments about that were glib, and unnecessarily provocative. Apologies for that. You are also right that the -400 decision was not 'proximate' with the EBA, to borrow a lawyer's term. But I won't revise my opinion that the AIPA involvement, the manner in which it was done, was shortsighted, and an error. I thought so back then it and I am not persuaded by hindsight to change my mind now.

Hey wayne king your version of events at Eastern is simply wrong,you should go back and have the story read to you again but this time get your helper to read fact not fiction.Your analogy further proves you clearly know little about the subjects you are commenting on.:=:=:=

So Don, what is the correct version of events? I would be interested to know as it seems AIPA might be having an effect (indirectly at least) on what the future holds for the Qlink group.

On a side note, both Qantas and the AFAP have appealed the AIRC ruling.

hay bondslipper, are you talking Income Protection, or Loss of Licence cover.
If you are talking income protection I think you will find that the premium versus the amount of cover available is way out of proportion (that is way to dear)
your link for the website does not take you anywhere except to an error page.

If you are talking loss of licence then the Qantas loss of licence is not available to additional pilots, that is pilots outside of mainline/international.
:{:{

Chaps....we need and can re-invent ourselves NOW.

Yes, it's a fact that the Scabs in '89 started the rot, yes it's true that VB and then J* pilots undermined wages in a big way and yes it's true QF pilots were incredibly arrogant turning away the J* group etc (and still maybe are by fighting other bodies to get the right to represent certain pilots).

It's all true but it's old news. Bickering about it is futile, energy-sapping and stupid. Yes learn from it but GO FORWARD.

Now is the time to strike.

We need a corporate rebranding and restructuring. We need the AAPP: Australian Association of Professional Pilots. Or some similar name.

This parent body would combine the assest and members of the existing pilot representative bodies in this country. It would have an International, Domestic, Regional and GA division (initially just transfer AIPA, AFAP, J*PG over lock stock and barrel). But it would have a President/CEO, VP, Secretary, Treasurer etc all elected by the members and bound by the constitution to protect the rights of all Australian Pofessional Pilots.

Sure, let those internal bodies bicker amongst themselves about who has the biggest willy, who is a better pilot etc but let that be done in-house, away from the gleeful watch of the vulturous Olmeadows of this world. At least then we present a united face, represented by ONE Association working for the betterment of all pilots.

This way you have the ability for many smart heads to bang together to determine smart, 21st-Century ways of applying industrial pressure on recalcitrant employers and bypassing and outsmarting current workplace legislation.

And you do this as a cohesive and (at least outwardly) united body and don't publically waste energy fighting your fellow professional aviator about who did what to whom etc.

NOW is the first opportunity in 20 years we have had to do this.

Go for it.

Attention All Oz Pilots
 

Divided We Fall

Dedicated to All Qantas, Jetstar, Virgin Blue, and Aspiring Australian Pilots.

Up north I gave my pound of flesh and stayed alive
But now I’m told it’s a glorified Bus I drive
So how come you need a thousand or two for a ticket
Surely I deserve a fair wicket!

Well I’ve always done my very best
With the heart of a kangaroo beating in my chest
I am proud to wear their tin upon my breast
But my loyalty they are beginning to test!

Brush your teeth and put your tie on straight
Done the hat and don’t be late
Make sure you polish your shoes
Or points with the auditor you’ll lose

Say G’day and be polite
“May I have the decent tonight?”
Yes they say being a second officer
Is a little like being a kind of a tosser

I can take the pole in my hand
But you can guarantee… I’ll never land
“Get out of the seat, you’ve had your fun”
“You’ll get your turn one day son!”

But if you want a promotion, go to Jetstar
Guess it beats sitting in the back by far
If you go you’re in for a treat
The shaftings start when you pay for your seat

You’ll be a Captain in just three years
But you wont be able to afford a round of beers
Now look out you’ve been gazumped!
AWA’s and your quick commands were bumped

You see, all the pilots from afar
Wouldn’t come fly for Jetstar
The FO slots at JQ
Only paid enough to draw but a few

A____ J_____... What a dunce
But Jetstar boys think we’re the $#%@’s
Why do pilots cut each others throat
We’re all going to sink in the same boat

AWA’s for new hires at Qantas so they say
Might as well go back to GA
They asked us for another pay freeze
Cos Qantas was headed for ruff seas

The price of oil was so high
There was no way they could tell a lie
So make sure the fuel order isn’t fat
And treat all your staff like a piece of crap

Management told us we’d been bad boys
The 787 wouldn’t be our new toys
We’re “too inefficient” so they said
And dreams of promotion were put to bed

Just when I thought things couldn’t be grimmer
The Chief Pilot invited us all for dinner
“Trust him!”… What were they thinking
And politely I declined without even blinking

AH! But what’s all this?
Did I just see G___ and M__g Kiss?
Record Profits and APA offers
Management….. Fill your coffers

The APA bid sat on a wall
The APA bid did take a great fall
And all of G____’s forces and all G____’s men
Couldn’t put the deal back together again

The shareholders wanted more loot
And M_______ J_______ got the boot!
So much for the ruff seas… What a farce!
Is that sun I see shining from G____’s #%#@

G_____’s a hero or so the papers say
That fella came out on top at the end of the day
But with all the cost cutting moral is low
And now its time to reap the seed you sow

Customers say they think we’re the worst
But never mind cos Pete says we’re first
The bottom line was all they were thinking
And now all our ratings have gone sinking

So G_____ be nibble G_____ be quick
You’re making our Red Kangaroo Sick
Our customers are telling us they want service
And your decisions are making me nervous

Its time to realise your staff are Qantas
So quit telling us that you don’t want us
From Aerolingus came the leprecorn
And Jetstar crew were used as a pawn

Jetstar crew come aboard and don’t despair
Together we can make sure you’re paid fair
I extend the olive branch to thee
United solidarity is the key

So next time you see A___ coming up from behind
Let him know you’re really not that kind
“Put that back in your shorts thanks!”
“And how about some money for our ranks?”

Come on Shorthaul its time to get up
EBA8…. vote “Nup!”
They tried to make you sign a dud
Bring it down with a resounding thud

Long hauls turn is coming soon
And we should sing a similar tune
“I’ve got your back mate!”
So stand up for all our sake

Senior blokes don’t forget to stick up for us
Now that you’re secure on the retirement bus
Our fore fathers ensured your future when you made a start
And you have reaped the rewards now you’re an old fart

I am proud of our brothers at Virgin Blue
Sticking their EBA offer down the loo
The pilot shortage is bound to strike
So pass this around if you like

For fear of punishment I wont publish my name
But please do consider our plight all the same
Please don’t say “I’m right Jack”
You never know when you’ll get the sack

Now my tirade is all finished and done
So have a think, but don’t lose the fun
Don’t let the bad blood run too deep
For our Careers we must fight together to keep

Invitation to all Qantas Subsidiary Pilots
 

Posted by Ian Woods on another forum, 7th June 2007.

Just before everyone gets to excited the President of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission granted a stay application against the decision today in Melbourne. He based it upon the grounds made out and the likely success of an appeal. This means that the current coverage arrangements remain in place until the full appeal is dealt with (i.e. AIPA has no current coverage of Jetstar, Eastern or Sunstate pilots)
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations AFAP

That doesn't stop AIPA holding a meeting such as the one above.

Since you're engaging on this forum Lawrie, care to elaborate on why AFAP is appealing the decision?

Conflicting statements
 

It seems an email doing the rounds contradicts what Lawrie Cox stated. Here is an excerpt:

So who is correct?

How the :mad: can we expect any unification with this sh t going on! This shows up the very sorry state we are all in. :ugh:

Mr Cox

Stop thinking about your own job and consider the Pilots instead. What are you afraid of? The JPC/AFAP should be prepared to stand by their record. What have you achieved for your members to date?

A sub standard EBA built on fear and now AWA's for new hires over your members!

Remember - "it's all about choice".

Cloudbuster, I have two problems with your 'challenge' above

1) "its all about choice" -- just goes to show how much the consumer mindset has taken hold of contemporary thinking. Choice is good in some areas, and counterproductive in others. If you are talking about driving down prices and increasing the variety of goods and services in a marketplace, yes, choice is good if you are a consumer.

However, choice is very bad for you as a the provider of a narrow set of skills that took a huge investment in time and effort. That is why companies, developers etc are dependent on devices such as patents, intellectual property rights, etc.

Example: Test the proposition that "Choice is good". Ok. Lets increase choice for the employer - allow Direct Entry pilots to compete on an equal footing with incumbent first officers seeking an upgrade. How do you think that would run for the FO's in your organisation, would they embrace that concept? Is choice in all forms still good?

If this ruling survives the appeal (and an appeal has been granted, which means at least one judge can see that it has merit), then no one union or association will have total support. The 'market share' to put it in your terms, might be 50/50, 75/25, or even 80/20, but it will never be 100/0.

All that 'choice' does for pilots in an industrial sense, is to ensure that there will never be one effective voice for pilots.


2) You put the emphasis on the AFAP to show what they have done for their members. Unfortunately that only shows that you miss the entire concept of how a union achieves 'a win.'

The membership. A united membership that is willing to take a risk, in order to win better conditions. A membership that understands that "power is never ceded without a fight."

The union staff is selected for their knowledge and expertise, but it is the membership that sets the direction and generates the 'push.'

Take a look at one of the more successful unions in this country, the CFMEU. These construction workers earn salaries that rival B737 captains in this country. The media like to focus their attention on their leader, Big Kev (not the fat spruiker from QLD, the union man from WA). But as Big Kev put it himself, the only reason the CFMEU is the attitude of their members.

"Our people earn that sort of money because they understand the collective".

Folk like Cloudbuster can sit back and defend their right to choice and hang on to the cult of individuality if they like. However, so long as you guys think like consumers of a service, we will be hamstrung, and Cloudbuster will be taking a slice of an ever diminishing pie.

The problem here is not really which union represents the QF group pilots. It might be a new flag, but it is flying above a group of people that has not changed, and I suspect wont change much, especially if they continue in the mistaken belief that AIPA can do much more for them than AFAP or any other organisation.

Same army, new uniform.

Takes a lot more than that to win a battle.

Slice the real story is rather long and thus I am not going to every little event,rather I shall give just an overview for now.In 2004 AIPA embarked on a membership drive at Eastern and a Trojan horse otherwise known as the EPG was formed and one of their first tasks was to discredit the AFAP.The truth of course was not to get in the way.The commandant over in tha AIPA bunker was really running the show for the EPG,they were willing foot soldiers.So you see Slice poor old wayne king and his ilk can continue to hallucinate and be all bitter and twisted as that is the way they want to be.The garbage about choice is right out of the EPG manual and although AIPA themselves do not want their existing members to have a choice(as that would weaken their position),but it is a different thing for the regionals,they must have a choice.Just another case of do as I say not as I do,the audacity of them is astonishing.The CoM needs to be sacked and replaced with a team that at least knows which way is up and is fair dinkum about unity.:D:D:D

There's one village missing an idiot.

Keg
To answer very bluntly the Federation will protect its area of coverage from bodies seeking to move in (in this case AIPA) that should come as no surprise to anybody with a working knowledge of unions.
We are appealing a decision full of inaccuracies and the ultimate conclusion which is founded on an error in the way the Senior Deputy President read the section of the act. Time will tell if we are right at the appeal but it was to say the least misleading to say that the stay was not immediate for the purpose of its operation. As someone who sat through Fridays proceedings Justice Giudice simply wanted to avoid a further dealy by allowing the final step of the original decision to be acted upon then he stayed the whole lot so that the Full Bench can deal with it all and not have someone playing games about the process causing delays.
I have no problem with anyone attending a meeting a AIPA what i am getting "jack of" is the plain rubbish been spoken about futre unity when the whole exercise is only about protecting QF mainline backsides and using others as their pawns.
The Federation has put it to AIPA to give us a full written proposal that can be considered at our Executive in mid June for one pilot body in Aus. Guess what they can't and will not do it because it exposes the fraud that is being played out. They do not want GA pilots, or helicopters or small airlines in the camp and god forbid you give them equal standing with the QF skygods in voting strength.
The pilot unions will never get together whilst you exclude professional pilots who do not meet the percieved "gods gift to avaition" standards.
If your fair dinkum about the future of pilot unions convince AIPA to embrace all professional pilots and work with us on a structure to achieve rather fight in the courts.
Cloudburst
I do not care what you think mate but this is not about me it is about you and your fellow peers and their futures. Hopefully you might wake up before its too late.
As a side note or for you an inconvienent truth over 70% of the Jetstar pilots voted their agreement up and the wide body amendment we are and have continued attempts to work with the group not stand back and call them parasites and actively try to discredit them as AIPA and its leaders have done since the outset.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots

Lawrie, I could not quite work out from your post if the Jetstar wide body deal is on the plus or the minus side of the ledger when you are telling us about the AFAP working for the Jetstar pilot group.