Lawrie,

It demonstartes breathtaking stupidity that you label all QF pilots with the above insult and then in the same post talk about your desire to work with AIPA for a single body representing all pilots.

I'm not 100% happy with everything AIPA is doing, but after that effort, I thank god we are not with the AFAP.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Speedy you beat me to the draw.

In another post I alluded to the fact there are many if not most who earned their employment at Q. Skygods not necessarily but lots of us worked hard and made it, something that we can feel proud of. To label Q pilots as Skygods shows how successful the company has been at alientating groups from each other.

The best thing going for us is that AIPA are trying something, not necessarily always successfully, but nonetheless having a go.

Having observed our union in action I am glad I am not represented by AFAP, who did nothing to help my colleagues and I as entitlements disappeared when our GA employer fell apart!

Hey What The,they are the facts of the whole sorry story if you have not figured that out by now then it is obvious who the idiot is.Come inside matey you have had to much of that tropical sun.DD.

Diego,

With all due respect, you were not there and have no idea what you are talking about.

You only know what you were told. Much like the lies being told by Lawrie to support his poor case, and the lies being told by the Ian Woods ARG led AIPA to support theirs.

As someone used to say, "the truth is out there".

If Mr Cox's opinion of pilots who have worked hard for, and achieved, decent working conditions and salary is the derogatory "Skygods" as used by some on this forum, he obviously believes that all his members are entitled to is a fraction of QF salary, and rosters dictated by some 16yr old clerk wannabe.

Look forward to a great career and family life after the after the novelty of the shiny new aeroplane wears off.

What the are you are clairvoyant in your spare time???

I did not clarify well what i meant in my post i do not believe all QF mainline as 'skygods' but i am heartly b*****y sick of hearing that QF and AIPA are the biggest, the best and the only saviour of our industry. I am also angry at trying our hardest to get improvements to see it undermined on a regular basis. If you do not like hearing it then do something about it instead of wimping around here on an anonymous electronic graffiti site.
I have never been shy to say that we (the Federation) are not perfect the best way forward is for a few others to look in the mirror as well. Maybe a few of you will actually look at what AIPA is doing instead of believing the PR spin coming out of Coward Street.
Lawrie Cox

Mr Cox's outburst is an example of the unprofessional attitude that has caused people to look for an alternative to the Federation. His temper is well known.

Don Diego's trojan story is the same rubbish line that Qantas wheeled out in the Commission.
Why is it so hard for you, Don, to understand that not everyone is content to sit on their hands suffering substandard service that they pay 1% of their salary for.

AIPA did NOT approach Eastern pilots. It was the other way around, and since you weren't there you can live in your angry little fantasy land as long as you wish. As a matter of fact you're so far in denial you should put your hand up for Flights Ops Manager at Eastern, you seem to have all the pre-requisites.... :{

Diego,

I can see as clear as day that you have no idea what you are talking about, if that is what you mean?

Whilst a most unfortunate handle, Wayne King does indeed speak the truth. If you knew him, you would know that he has no need to do otherwise.

Others on this site are not so unburdened.
;)

Hey w_k the earth really is flat and all this time you and your goons have been right,silly us,oh well I guess we can now just fall over the edge and it will be just you and the odd cockroach left.Enjoy.:mad::mad::mad:

Lawrie,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Next time leave out the references to 'skygods'. It offends me personally both in reference to my flying ability (because a skygod I ain't) as well as to my religious beliefs which those who have seen my posts on Qrewroom would know that I take pretty seriously.

I guess this is a philosophical difference. I see that all people in the one company doing the same job should be able to be covered (if they choose) by the most appropriate association. If this is the TWU, AFAP or AIPA then I don't really give a stuff but to 'isolate' parts of the group from membership due to a belief that you 'own' strikes me more as 'protectionist' than anything else. It doesn't look like 'service', it looks like covering your own backside.

I disagree- as my comments above allude to.

Have you submitted your full written proposal to AIPA (or anyone really) for the one pilot body in Australia? I've never read it. I've read many calls for unity amongst the representative bodies on this forum (I authored a few of them in fact) and yet the first time I recall hearing from you is when AIPA make a move to open the doors to other crew employed in the QF group.

I'm not sure what we're voting on here but I don't think that I want a GA driver voting on whether or not EBA 8 gets up in QF. I'm not sure that I want Captain Bloggs from Joe's Air Charter (apology to Joe if the company actually exists) to be speaking on behalf of QF group pilots just because he got the 3200 GA drivers to vote for him whilst the 3199 QF group pilots didn't. I'm not sure the DJ crew would want Captain Bloggs from QF speaking for them in their EBA negotiations either....or for the GA drivers.

Can we leave the hyperbole behind? It's tiresome, it's old and it's generally the refuge of those with massive chips on their shoulders. Many pilot's in the US are part of their own group's association which goes to make up USALPA (or whatever they're calling it this week). What's the problem with this model? The answer is nothing.

Rather than fight in the courts? Why don't you drop the case Lawrie and work with AIPA. I can't see AIPA being prepared to 'work together' when you're the one trying to block them from being able to cover pilots all employed by the same group.

[quote]
As a side note or for you an inconvienent truth over 70% of the Jetstar pilots voted their agreement up and the wide body amendment....[quote]

Geez Lawrie, a big percentage of people in Germany in the '30s voted for the Nazi party and Hitler to become the Chancellor, that doesn't make it a wise decision.

Funny, I recall a number of times that AIPA and QF drivers asked and even begged the JPC, J* pilots and everyone else involved in the A320 introduction and the subsequent widebody variation to get their heads together with AIPA to work together on these deals. Where was your proposed unity then- or were you so delighted about being able to 'stick it' to those in QF that all you could think of was the increased subs.

I'm quite happy to see that AIPA is working towards ensuring that all members of the QF group are able to avail themselves of the one representative body if they so desire. I've got no problems with AFAP running a case to be able to cover QF drivers (if we so chose). Based on your comments here though and your track record over the last few years I can't see too many QF drivers being particularly anxious to make the leap though- even given our own internal issues with AIPA.

Regards,
Keg

Keg, never write a letter when you are angry. That was a self-important dig at the only person that has clearly identified himself amongst a pack of w@nkers hiding behind Pprune handles, capping off a very disheartening Pprune thread about -- unity :yuk:

I didn't say he was right, but he is more of a man than you or anyone else here, godless or not.

Skygods, sheesh. Remember that joke....

ACFT "Schipol Ground, request local time please"

GND "Aircraft calling ground, which airline are you sir?"

ACFT "BA"

GND "Local time is a quarter past five."

.. a pause ..

ACFT "Ground, just curious, why did you request our airline before reply?"

GND "Sir, you are BA, so local time is a quarter past five. If you were United, the time is quarter after five. If you were Qantas, the big hand is on the five, and the little hand is on the three."

The one thing that has eluded all of you QF boys and girls and your wannabees in QFLink, is -- how did you get it into your heads that JQ wants you, your airline and your AIPA?

Because they DON'T.

You guys have to get your heads around the fact that not everybody thinks you are as good as you do, false modesty declared by Keg or not.

It wouldn't be worth mentioning, except for the fact that due to your delusional group think, your AIPA is jumping in and doing damage, right now, with uncertain prospects of doing any effective good for the wider industry, ever.

Diego,

Your post is really quite amusing. I think you might have written it the wrong way about. The AFAP line is the earth is flat.... "don't dare leave us cause you'll fall off the edge". The problem is we want to leave, and the even though we're pretty sure the earth isn't flat, it's bad enough with the AFAP that we'll leave and take the chance anyway. After all, years of getting nowhere is a hard thing to do worse than!

Kransky, I assume that's not your real name, and therefore welcome to the ranks of the "lesser men". It's funny that anyone who doesn't blindy agree with the "AFAP is best" mentality, is a wannabe, or a skygod, or a ******. You guys really are a sad relic of the past, where all that's left for you to do is to spit venom, because a reasonable, articulate arguement is beyond you....Don't get too much sand in your eyes :zzz:

Angry Kransky? Really? You don't know me very well. If you've read anger into my comments then you'll need to go back and read again. This time read something along the lines of disappointment with a touch of realistic amusement at Lawrie proving to me what many have said about the AFAP.

I don't know the AFAP from a brick having had zero involvement with them. My only interaction has been as an interested observer in what they've done so far- and this is most often what I read about them by their own hand. My initial impression of Lawrie isn't pretty but I'm pretty confident that he won't lose sleep over what some QF driver (I won't use his term :rolleyes: ) thinks of him. I am puzzled that what was a genuine question from me (and I like to think that my history on PPRUNE shows me to be a pretty straight shooter) gets responded to with such invective. Ask the question and Lawrie responds by slagging 2500 pilots in the biggest employer of jet drivers in the country. Shall we digress a little and discuss the fact that comments both here and on other forums show that the DJ guys and gals seem to be significantly under-whelmed with AFAP in recent times?

As for posting under PPRUNE handles, I'm not sure what that has to do with 'being a man' on here or anywhere else. I couldn't have cared if Lawrie posted as Lawrie or Guido the slysdexic taxi driver, the question I posed would have been the same. I would expect his type of response from 101 other people on this forum that take any opportunity to hook into QF drivers (why I'm not sure but there is a thesis in there for someone!) but for the industrial rep of the AFAP to do so is a sad indication of where he and AFAP appear to be. Before you try and accuse me of bias I'll acknowledge that occasionally I get concerned about stuff that comes out of QF and AIPA from time to time also. QF used to get flight crew reports or other feedback from me but there are reasons why they don't anymore and AIPA still get emails or phone calls. Moving on though, if we're about to start measuring the lengths of our proverbials based on whether we've posted under our real names or not then I can give you a list of QF drivers (including management types up to and including the Chief Pilot) as well as drivers for other airlines and even non-aligned personnel on PPRUNE who can tell you quite readily who I am. They may not tell you because frankly you come across as a bit of a pill, but they'll vouch that I stand behind what I say.

JQ may not want to join AIPA and I'm not fussed if they choose to or not. I'd like them to but acknowledge that they won't if AIPA isn't going to deliver the service though. Don't you think that they should be given that choice though?

I'm sure that if AIPA decided to push for 'industry wide' coverage (as Lawrie appears to want them to do) that the howls of protest from the likes of yourself and Lawrie about 'not our place' or 'thinking that the QF drivers have all the answers' would be quite loud.

Let me say again for the record (as I've said to AIPA reps) that we need to be working together and that means ultimately all pilots as part of the same pilot group. If the first step to that is drawn along company lines than fine, but it has to start somewhere. I've seen nothing from AFAP on this issue in my last 12 years employed at QF. :ugh:

If you are offended then exercise your right not to visit this board.
How arrogant of you to impose your religious view upon others.
Grow up.

Does anybody else find it interesting that Jetstar pilots seems to be the only ones happy with the AFAP? Take a look on REX and Virgin threads. They are all saying the same things that the Easterns blokes were saying a couple of years ago: AFAP has dropped the ball and give the impression of being in the company pocket. Not working hard enough for their employers (us).
NJS looking at TWU. Why?

Ignore the warning signs at your own peril AFAP.

Its all about choice.
WayneKing's writings would be the closest to resembling the majority of Easterns pilots feelings at the mo.

Tootle pip!

TDI

Hey Shot, I've always been a fan of being 'up front'. I don't visit Jet Blast because most of it is inane crap that I can't be bothered reading and just isn't interesting (to me). However if someone offends me (and Lawrie's comments were directed at me in terms of answering a question that I put forward) then surely I have the right to say that I was offended. If I offended you by referring to you in some particular way that you found offensive then I'm sure that you'd have no hesitation in letting me know.

Of course though, then we wouldn't be able to have the double standard that those like you perpetuate. It's ironic that my comments have obviously offended your sensibilities (in terms of you believing that I'm 'imposing' my religious views) and yet you have no problems with letting me know that you feel this is inappropriate. So it's OK for you to let me know that you don't like what I said (based up me pushing an agenda from your perspective) but it's not OK for me to do likewise to Lawrie. Who was the arrogant one? :rolleyes:

I find the term 'skygod' offensive on more than one level and find that it normally indicates someone with a chip on their shoulder about the role that QF drivers play in the industry. Therefore if someone wants to engage in a proper discussion with me with a hope of influencing my thoughts, then they're better off leaving the term out.

Kransky
If the big hand is on the five and the little hand on the three, what time is it?
Now tell me you did it on purpose to check if anyone is paying attention.

Kransky's Joke:Am I missing the punch line. I get the big hand, little hand your simple thing. Us QF drivers are simple yes, but correct me if I'm wrong if the big hand was on the five and the little hand was on the three wouldn't the time be THREE THIRTY:confused: Or is Kransky just that :mad: silly that he can't work out from memory what 5:15 would look like on an analog watch? LITTLE HAND ON FIVE AND BIG HAND ON THREE YOU GOOSE!!!!!!!!!!:ok:

As to the point of this thread, why shouldn't the JQ drivers be given the choice of who represents them. If this is about doing loosing subscriptions then that is :mad: because if you were doing the best job for them they wouldn't be inclined to shift would they. What is wrong with choice?

Snafu it would actually be twenty five past three. Lucky you've got controllers reading this site. Time check.

Good thing you controllers can tell the time Max because a few of you can't spell to save yourselves. I recently asked one to spell whiteboard and it came back as whitboard. Hope his controlling is better than his spelling. :E

Be very afraid YPJT.....he's coming to an SMC near you soon! :} :ok: :}

Lucky the time is digital in the tower then eh :cool:

wayne_king you have yet again missed the point,you need some assistance in dealing with reality.

For the sake of completeness (not an opinion) here is the direct words from the transcript by Justice Giudice last week found at paras 327-328 Page 40:
"These are appeals against a decision given by Kaufman SDP on 23 May 2007 in relation to an application by the Australian and International Pilots Association to amend its eligibility rule. I have concluded on the basis of the submissions today that there is a sufficiently arguable case that leave would be granted to appeal and that the appeal would succeed.
The issue described generally as an irreconcilable conflict of interest between the pilot groups referred to in much of the evidence looms large in the decision. It is arguable the decision is erroneous in relation to the manner in which the evidence and submissions on that question were dealt with. The issue also has significance from the perspective of the employers involved and the public because of the possibility of demarcation disputes which may not have been properly taken into account. There may be other grounds upon which it might be concluded that there is a sufficiently arguable case that leave would be granted and that the appeal would succeed, but it is not necessary that I go beyond the one I have identified."
Please note my emphasis in the first para.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
PS - Keg it is not my case it is an APIA application and that has been the problem from the start. How do you sit down with someone who has proceedings on foot. We thought long and hard about it including the night we sat down with AIPA leaders a couple of days before the hearing started but were told the COM would not support an adjournment to enable those talks to continue.

Fair enough Lawrie. Perhaps those talks can continue now.

In the mean time, this was posted on Qrewroom. I reproduce it here without further comment.

"All Aboard the AIPA Membership Merry-go-round"

Captain Ian Woods' post today spruiking for pilots from Jetstar and the Qantas Regional’s to sign up with AIPA, is yet another turn of the AIPA Membership Merry-go-round and pilots should not be fooled particularly those who trusted their promises the first time round.

Jetstar and regional pilots will remember the earnest assurances two years ago that AIPA had clear eligibility to enrol them under their current rules. The words I recall are that we have a legal opinion to support our claims.

Those pilots, who took them at their word, paid over their money for nothing. SDP Kaufman found in his recent decision that “It follows that, in my view, pilots employed by Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate are currently not eligible to be members of the AIPA.” (para 49 of the decision)
This means AIPA were found not to have eligibility to enrol the pilots. Not a murmur about that from AIPA - wonder why? Not even an apology and/or an offer to return your money.

Now AIPA is confronted with an appeal against SDP Kaufman's decision. A stay (freeze) of the decision has been granted by the President of the Commission, and it is to come into effect next Wednesday. The President granted the stay because he was satisfied that "there is a sufficiently arguable case that leave would be granted to appeal and that the appeal would succeed".

If the appeal succeeds, the recent decision will be set aside and the extended eligibility rule granted by it will be annulled. Those who enrolled under it and paid their money will have nothing to show for it.

So what is AIPA's rush, you may ask. Why not wait until the Commission has finally concluded its proceedings? The obvious answer is that AIPA are unconcerned about the disruption and uncertainty that they will cause. To repeat a quote recently used by Captain Woods, "the end justifies the means".

The extra membership fees will probably help them meet the costs of the wave of litigation that AIPA has instigated over the last few months.

And Qantas mainline pilots might well ask themselves about the good sense of having all these new members on the roll and voting in the upcoming elections, when they could well be struck off soon after if the appeal succeeds. What effect will that have on the election outcome if there were voters who should never have participated?

Obviously the elections could not stand - Captain Woods and his lawyers must know that. But again, the welfare of pilots seems to take second place to the political strategies.

If AIPA want to play their strategic little mind games half way through the match, don't get sucked in. Wait until the umpire has made the final decision.

Lawrie Cox
Manager – Industrial Relations

Geez, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work this one through. When do you need to be enrolled by? July. When is the actual vote for COM? October.

If the world turns your way Lawrie there will be ample time to ensure that the register is correct.

I know that I'd vote for a Dash 8 or A320 guy to be part of COM. The more united we are the better we are.

Reproduced from Qrewroom without comment:

The wheel keeps turning.....

A lot of water still to pass under the bridge on this one!

shame-shame-shame
 

WELL Mr C from AFAP, you state what in your post ...." took them at their word,paid over good money for nothing".
Well I know little of AIPA/QF or group and have long left the AFAP but as an ex CRJ KD pilot.. those current AFAP members may wish to remember AFAP did not protect my seniority, did not get my turbo prop position back from junior pilots. In fact...did squat/zip..for me when I needed them most.
Bitter / twisted = not so much ..just a little much to read Mr C's post and not respond. :yuk:

This is a long a thread and sometimes off the subject. BUT.
 

There have been two or three statements made regarding the eligibility of other than Qantas (mainline) pilots able to join AIPA! Which have gone unanswered.:ugh:

Quote; L Cox,
“It follows that, in my view, pilots employed by Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate are currently not eligible to be members of the AIPA.” (para 49 of the decision)

Also somewhere else in this thread I am sure it was quoted.

The direct quote from the AIRC web page is,

[49] It follows that, in my view, pilots employed by Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate are currently not eligible to be members of the AIPA. I also accept the submissions of Mr McDonald at paragraphs 47 to 56 of his written submissions on this issue.

Paragraph 47 refers to, how AIPA has failed the no better organisation test. And,
Paragraph 56 refers to, the act does not discourage overlapping coverage and the resultant competition for membership.

A former AIPA President on another bulletin board has also stated,
Quote:
I do know that the AIPA rules specifically prohibited AIPA from signing up any members other than pilots engaged in international operations (as a direct result of court action in the early 1980's
:suspect::suspect:

The AIPA Reform Group (ARG) was formed and was elected to the AIPA committee. They came to power on a ticket of reform, among the members on the so-called ticket was a pilot who oh, I Shell referred to as” Buddha” to keep him anonymous if possible.

Under Senior Deputy President (SDP) Kaufman’s decision as per the quotes above, “Buddha” is not eligible to be a member of AIPA and therefore not eligible to be on the committee of management (C.O.M.);)
Also there was a group (may be 80 odd) of $50 members (not Qantas mainline) who also voted in this election, who were in eligible to vote.
Why hasn't anyone including the registrar challenged the election? Or the members of the old Com that were defeated under the ARG's ticket, due to be in eligible (members) voting in that election?:O:(

What about all the decisions made by the ARG since the election with “Buddha” on the COM.:=:=

Shaft, I think that Wayne's quote about AIPA rules should have included the statement "...at the time...".

I'm pretty sure that AIPA's rules were amended to extend to beyond those flying international services about a decade or so ago.

Keg, I would prefer not to reveal my source of information.

I'm not sure AIPA did extend their rules decades ago, I cannot find any evidence of that. (A search of the airc hasn't been forthcoming).
If they did why the need to vary there rules now?

In any case the judge has ruled that other than mainline were in eligible.

Do you have a comment on the eligibility of the Com.?

Shaft, nope. To be honest I'm at a loss as to whom you're referring to with the term 'Buddha'.

All I say is that I recall something to do with amending the AIPA rules years ago. It's about the same time that it went from being 'Australian International Pilots' Association' to the 'Australian and International Pilots' Association'

(I'll await for the Mr Apostrophe crowd to tell me whether I got that one right or not! ;) )

Well Shaft if nothing else you silenced the peanut gallery for the time being or perhaps they are having trouble getting a reverse charge call through to HKG in order to be told how to slither out and blame the AFAP for it all.DD.

Actually Don i just think no one can be bothered replying to Shaft. There's really no point, given he doesn't seem to have any comprehension skills. He can't understand who wrote what, nor what it means.

I have neither the time nor inclination to try and get someone to read something with an open mind, when their mind is closed to anything other than what they're told to believe.

As for you Don, you keep on pontificating on this site, on others, and in the workplace. It's funny to watch, after all most of us can see the compromised position you're in; thinking you're the Manager of Flt Op's best friend, and good buddies with Lawrie, and then believing you know best for the pilots.

Anyway, you have a nice day, and try not to let the hate eat at you too much:O

Closer to being united?
 

i hope this is something we can work from to improve the lot of all group pilots.

I hope that the Jetstar pilots now call on AIPA's industrial expertise for the EBA negotiations which are already under way. Management want a five year EBA and with the major pilot shortage only going to get worse then pilot wages and conditions will experience huge increases during the next five years.

Any rumours on whats included in the new EBA or is too early to speculate ? Whats happening with new start and AWA's?
Have they been abolished with the change in Govt?

Happy New Year to all....

Ang ;)