Jetstar New Hire Pilots (AWAs)
 

To All Pilots.

The meeting/roadshows around most bases is called for by the Jetstar Pilot Council (JPC) to inform all pilots of the companys intention to introduce AWA to all new hire Jetstar Pilots.

The JPC urges All pilots to make an effort to hear/educate themselves about what is about to happen and come along.

After our meeting we have invited the company to explain the situation directly to all Pilots and will be giving a presentation to sell YOU that AWA's won't effect YOU.

I hope this gives all Pilots the required info and motivation to come along if possible.

So, I take it that this will be new conditions for all new intakes and different for current employees??

AWA's won't effect YOU.

Of course they won't. Except when these new joiners are offered your positions with less conditions (if that is possible) during the next round of allocations. Maybe these AWA new joiners will be offered your new command positions too.

AWA'S WON'T AFFECT YOU - YEAH RIGHT!!!!!

Simply Disgusting!!.

DM

Yes, the JPC will inform/educate you about what is going to happen, but will do absolutely nothing to try and resist/stop AWA's on new hires.

In fact, they will probably sell them out!

why are AWA's a bad thing again?
Since leaving Qantas i have been working under an AWA, doing the same job..
im $200 a week better off at the base wage level, Annual leave is the same, sick leave is the same (its actually protected if you read the fine print on AWA's from the govt)
i work a 4 day week. (so i dont need to take leave to have a long weekend) all other conditions are the same. oh, except the 4% pay rises every year so far..:ok: and every employee here is on an identical AWA.

under QF on an EBA...... never had a real pay rise in 10 yrs, 2 yrs of wage freezes, very unfriendly 7 day rotating roster/shift,all Union negotiated of course! all of which i had the joy of paying for!:mad:
from my personal experience in the Aviation game.... FuchK the unions!:mad:

What exactly does the JPC do?

They should just change their name to the Vichy Council

jpc. yawn

Interesting way the 'Qantas Group' is acting.
Let's see.... short of drivers for the jetconnect ops. Calling back mainline 73 FO's, who have taken leave of absence, to help with the shortage caused by guys going to nz to fix the jetconnect debacle. Mainline 330 blokes having long service and annual leave burned whilst they sit around twidling there thumbs. Short of 744 SOs because most are right on flight time limits for the year and there aint anyone else.
And they call it management.
Hope the JPC have done the research on this one!!!!!

jpc yawn

I’m with Ultralight here. Whats wrong with AWA’s. Mine is working great.
With a wide body captain salary of $147,809 and “cruise FO” on $88,685.4 your EBA’s are awesome.:} :} :}
Ill pay $33,000 for that. :ugh:

What's wrong with AWA's? Lol People are blinded by money and common sense has gone out the window, wow some people are better of with AWA's OF COURSE they are! There is a shortage of workers at the moment! The problem is not now, its when we face a recession and quite frankly you are STUFFED if you are in an AWA system when this happens. High unemployment means people will undercut YOUR AWA because they just want to put food on the table. I dont disagree that AWA's are a good thing personally for some people in some industries at the moment., goddamn it should be while Australia is riding the resources boom. Its not just the young ones these days, a damn lot of Australians are becoming the ME NOW , MONEY, generation, its a damn shame.

I would much rather be on a collective agrement on less pay, because in the long-term you will be better off. Awa's are the ultimate in divide and conquer and CEO's are grinning with pleasure, jsut look at them crowing on about the abolition of them haha, Its pretty damn obvious why, they have all the say and they dont want to lose it. Anyway Rant over, I don't have a problem with people that are on AWA's at all, my fear is the long term repurcussions that will affect fellow Australians working under them.

Anyway there is an easy way to banish them, just use your vote at this years election. :ok:

Rsull lol, exactly!

What is wrong with AWA's you ask. Let me tell you.

1. The contract can be cancelled by either party with 90 days written notice for no reason. The fall back conditions will be the appropriate industry award. In the case of one particular jet operator the award includes a drop of base salary from circa $125K down to 96K for Captains.

2. The employer is not abliged to offer the same negotiated conditions for new employees. In the case of one particular jet operator this has seen new starts offered an AWA with:

First Officers base salary cut from circa 75K to $61K
From this reduced salary a salary sacrifice of $15K over 2 years to cover some of the endorsement costs and
a 3 year/ $30K bond.
Together with no overtime for the first year and no consumer price indexing of base salary to name a few "alterations".

The behaviour by the management has included, but not been limited to:

Phoning new recruits the evening before their final simulator check and threatening to cancel the check if they do not sign the AWA. They all signed;

Cancelling the AWA of a current line pilot because they refused to sign a bonding clause. The result is a $15,000 pay drop onto the award as described above. Note that this behaviour IS NOT ILLEGAL, it was tested in court and within the guidelines of the new IR laws.

You may reflect on what is to come when the economy turns if this is what can be achieved in the current economic conditions.

It's not only going to be the Tech Crew, they are setting up AWAs for 787 Engineers in Jetstar. And as sure as night follows day they will try the same thing in Qantas.

Good God! You are joking, right DM? In fact, not just you my friend, but all Jetstar pilots.

The irony and hypocrisy is astounding.

DM, can you vaguely remember in you not so distant past being critisised for accepting the disgusting pay and conditions offered by Jetstar?

And you now have the nerve to tell someone else that this is "disgusting"?

Sorry mate, but you have already prostituted yourself, and by doing so compromised any claim for the moral high ground.

This is a race to the bottom which YOU, DM, were well and truly involved in. Until such a time as YOU say to Jetstar "I WILL NOT ACCEPT THE SH1T CONDITIONS YOU ARE OFFERRING", you have no right to comment on someone else's race downwards.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

If I were a betting man and the $61K rumour was true...I would suggest that perhaps it refers to the rate for "Cruise" First Officers...ie Second Officers?

I could be wrong but I thought most recruiting between now and the end of the year was for CSO's.

Can anyone confirm this?

It is silly to compare an AWA in some other job to what the JPC negotiated for their EBA.

The JPC negotiated the worst deal possible. They undercut every other airline wage by a good amount in a time when there was expansion in airlines. To say the JPC did a bad deal is like saying Stalin was just being a naughty boy.

The fact is that wages are increasing in all the other airlines. There is a pilot shortage. It is a great position to be in when negotiating a new wage deal.

The thing is who would be better at negotiating? One untrained individual, or a properly organised association.

Now because the JPC is so incredibly bad at representing their pilots, and because of the labour shortage AWAs are doing well in some areas it may well be that in this one case an individual could do better on an AWA than with a JPC negotiated EBA.

However you need to look to the long term. What will happen when there is a downturn, what will happen if there is a terrorist attack and tourism dies to a trickle? It would cause an oversupply of pilots for a year or so. It is then that the protection of a union and an EBA will be vital.

So if Jetstar ever gets some decent pilot representation, you would have to think that for a volatile industry like ours the long term stability of union negotiated EBAs has to have some merit.

The problem isn't that you may do better with an AWA, your real problem is that the JPC is just a crap pilot representative body.

C'mon guys !! The JPC are great, just look at the MOU, an absolute corker for all Jet* pilots, and they are always there to help when company tries to underpay you and get you to work outside the EBA conditions, and the dozens of ex AN drivers that got commands out of seniority " 'cause we really needed that guys 6 months effo time on the 320 7 years ago "...........and hey look, was that a pig that just landed.............:ugh:

What does the AWA's mean for new guys, are they likley to be offered less money for the same job?

The Negotiator
 

J* pilots to be undercut by new hires on AWAs. Atleast then they'll know what its like to be undercut by your own 'group' and have to face convergance! :mad:

Dear oh Dear Sandy. You seem a little worked up. Actually I was referring to the selling out of the new hires by the company and the JPC. AWAs are not acceptable under any circumstances. This has only just been announced to the pilot group. Don't be concerned the group will be fighting to stop this. Unlike many of your type who blithely sit back and allow all below you to be shafted. Ie Singapore based 1st officers. Obviously you stood on your digs for their rights didn't you!!

Despite your "findings", I think you will find that most Jetstar guys and gals are exactly like you and all others in the industry. Working hard and fighting for a better workplace. As the "guardians of the industry" perhaps you need to be a little bit more concerned about your own back yard before getting hyped about others concerns.

Dm

Douglas,

I do believe an 'olive branch' was offered to the JPC by AIPA during the negotions for the conditions for J*international but even though this offer came FOC it was denied. By 'olive branch' I mean the realisation by our new CoM that we all sink or swim together.

I now sit back and can only think that the desire to stop the AWAs being introduced is showing your industrial muscle a wee bit too late. The effective time to draw a line in the sand for J* conditions, I believe, has been lost and given the conditions that were negotiated for J* international and how easily they were accepted by the pilot body means that management will continue to test the waters with J* to see just how low the conditions can be pushed.

My previous post was posted in a general mood of anger and frustration at watching my career evaporate because others were prepared to undercut my conditons to do the same type of job, not for another company, but for a rebranded cheap version of Qantas that had had the route structure handed to them from us. However, I genuinely believe that until we can come together as a the 'Group' that management advertises, neither group will prosper. I do however find is rather ironic that the J* body is now in fear of being undercut.

Twin.

PS - If you want to, feel free to PM me for an insight into our part of the Group as I wouldn't mind knowing a bit more of the J* side. It's got to start somewhere I suppose.

Ha! The irony is thick, DM. Forgive me for being cynical, because you guys did such a fabulous job of "fighting" for yourselves, let alone fighting for someone else!

But no-one in the industry works harder than J*, or for less pay I might add????

DM, you are still spouting the exact same crap that you came out with years ago. And yup, you were very clearly proven to be at the leading edge of a downwards spiral which has disgusted all others (except management) in the Australian Aviation Industry.

Forgive me if I don't agree with Twin. Whilst his intentions are probably good, he doesn't realise that you will white ant him in a heart beat, taking his job, lifestyle and future.

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Sandy,

My (perhaps ours?) future is already starting to be eaten away beacause of past events. My point is the rot HAS to stop at some point or we are all left with nothing.

I'm not happy about J* and the current impications it has on my, and many others careers, but unless something can be done about true convergence (upwards, not downwards) then the only places left for a career, not just a stepping stone, will be Asia and the Middle East. It seems a bit of a shame to me for such a 'lucky country'.

I actually think that the J* pilot body will come to realise that they have traded long term satisfaction for instant gratification but I also know that if I had still been in GA and J* had offered me a position I'd have accepted it in a flash. There just seems to be such a vicious circle. You can't blame guys for trying to earn more money and get out of that fun but nevertheless ****hole (most of the time, despite the fun memories) called GA, but it's a case of out of the pan and into the fire.

The bitching, moaning, fighting and continual race to the bottom in search of fast commands, upgrades, window seats, turbine time etc etc etc has to stop and a genuine attempt (hopefully succesful) to let go of the past and work towards a profitable future must start.

Will it happen? In my lifetime I doubt it, which is a bit of a shame considering I'd like to think I have over 30 years of flying left in me but you never know.

Anyway, time for bed. Tomorrow is, after all another day.

Twin.

maybe we should all tune in to next weeks installment of 'bastard boys' and see where we'll be when all of this dust has settled. Makes my skin crawl watching

Jetstar deals spark union fears
By Scott Rochfort
May 14, 2007

Qantas has launched one of its biggest ever assaults on the union movement, with its low-cost Jetstar subsidiary confirming plans to put all its new pilots and maintenance staff on individual workplace agreements.
Barely one week since the collapse of the $11.1 billion Macquarie Bank-led bid for Qantas, Jetstar confirmed it was planning to hire 200 pilots and 50 aircraft maintenance engineers on Australian Workplace Agreements (AWAs) in the coming months.
"Jetstar as an organisation needs the flexibility to grow, and we believe that a flexible workplace agreement allows us to do that," Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway told BusinessDay. This will represent the biggest intake of staff on AWAs that Jetstar has made.
At present it has 90 long-haul flight attendants on individual agreements after snubbing the international arm of the Flight Attendants Association last year.
Mr Westaway argued that Jetstar staff on the new five-year contracts would be paid the same as existing Jetstar pilots and engineers on enterprise bargaining agreements (EBAs).
Staff on AWAs will be subject to annual pay reviews, rather than the automatic pay increases staff on EBAs can get.
"If the airline performs extremely well, or better than forecast, there's obviously upside for new recruits on these agreements," Mr Westaway said. "It's about embedding a performance culture in the airline," he said. Jetstar has 400 pilots and 150 engineering staff on EBAs.
Sparking union fears that Jetstar's adoption of AWAs could become more widespread, Mr Westaway added that the agreements would be needed to assist the airline's taking on Boeing 787s from August 2008. "We have to move now in respect to the 787 program. We do need to push the button and move now."
Unions fear Jetstar's growing use of non-union staff could eventually spread to Qantas.
"It's a union-busting activity," said the general manager of the Australian International Pilots Association, Peter Somerville.
"It has nothing to do with flexibility; it's about peeling employees from their collective representatives."
Mr Somerville questioned the timing of the Jetstar announcement, given the Industrial Relations Commission is also due to hand down a ruling on whether the union had the right to represent Jetstar crews. Jetstar pilots are represented by a company-endorsed Jetstar Pilots Council.
Mr Somerville added that the move to put pilots on AWAs raised safety concerns. "They are willing to pit pilot against pilot. In a safety culture, that is a major, major mistake and a flaw in their plan. The bean counters just don't get that."
Mr Somerville suggested the Jetstar announcement was a smokescreen aimed at diverting attention from Qantas senior management now trying to wash their hands clean of the Airline Partners Australia takeover they previously endorsed.
But the move follows Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon's warning in March that the airline needed to change, "whatever its ownership structure".
There are suspicions Qantas may even attempt to "wet lease" 787s and crews from the lower-paying Jetstar subsidiary.
Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association federal president Paul Cousins said the hiring of Jetstar engineers on AWAs was an attempt by the airline to sideline unions' efforts to bargain on behalf of their members. He said he was concerned Qantas would outsource operations to its low-cost offshoot.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/busine...994995758.html

The best performance indicator for aircrew is NO ACCIDENTS, which has been the case to date. How would management like us to improve productivity?

Lets see. I could fly below the minima and land in fog at Canberra. GA pilots have been getting away with it for years. Those pesty diversions do so interrupt the schedule. I could not write up unservicabilities in the maintenance release. Ignore that hydraulic valve that won't shut off; after all what are the chances of an engine fire that would require it shut, so it won't feed fuel to the fire? I could fly with a head cold- what is the probability of a cabin depressurisation that would TOTALLY DEBILITATE me on that one sector?
Bloggs, we note in your annual pay review that you diverted 3 times this past year, and grounded an aircraft twice by writing "things" in the maintenance release. Sorry no pay rise for you.

We are paid to manage the various risks that confront us each day at
work. We should not be pressured to TAKE RISKS that will lead to an incident or accident. The POOR standard of initial and recurrent training that is occurring in ALL jet operators in this country is appaulling and will result in one thing..........

Qantas to start recruiting again in July/August. AWA's anyone?

JPC WTF?!
part of me just says "ah stuff it! let them go!". If the Jetstar boys are willing to forego annual payrises and promotion for new joiners (yes thats right, people who havent evn joined your ranks yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!), so they can 'fly a widebody jet' (sounds a lot like that emirates video doesnt it), then I say let them go and see what happens.

I say its time to forget about JPC and get Virgin and AIPA to band togheter.

The message for the AIPA specifically and the Qantas workforce generally is: "Be afraid, very very afraid." The games are just about to begin and you need to look not much further than yourselves for the reasons why.

.

And therein lies the problem...time for these spineless pricks (the JPC) to show us what they are made of!

i.e. There is a growing pilot shortage and we need to sign up as many people as we can now on this ****ty deal!

Too many people mired in the past.

Yes: AIPA was arrogant and screwed Jetstar guys. Yes those Jetstar undercut everybody. Yes Virgin Blue guys initially accepted low salaries to get it going. Yes scabs started the whole rot in 1989. The main lesson from all of this is that pilots screw themselves more than managers seem to but...

It's time to get over it all. Its 2007 and that stuff is history. Learn from it but go forward having gained wisdom from those events.

Regroup, refocus and regain what's been lost. Now is the time to advance.

It will need lateral and creative thinking and an entirely new mindset as to how to tackle managerial hypocrisy and sharehoder need for immediate returns but it can be done.

The first step is to stop sniping at each other. The next is to reunite AIPA, AFAP and JPC cohesively and the final is to institute an intelligent battle plan.

Judging by most of the posts here, stage one will probably be the most difficult.

Excellent post Al. This would have to be the most accurate statement i've ever read on this forum.

Others like old Sandy, don't be fooled by your own ignorance. There is one angry pilot body here now. This has really showed all involved that belonging to a union with industrial muscle is absolutely essential when dealing with the "Company".

Id say that there a few heads on the block as we speak.

DM

jpc....yawn

I think it is obvious that AIPA, JPC and AFAP can't really merge, too much history and mistrust.

For the record, most of the mistrust that the JPC has regarding AIPA was fueled by the president jilting them (to the horror of most thinking members), this fellow is now senior QF management, obviously it was a setup. He is now universally hated by the QF pilots as well. Isn't it a bit unfair to blame the present AIPA for what a management stooge did 6 years ago?

Also, some QF pilots will never forgive the JPC for what they did, but I think it is a minority, if the JPC stand up for themselves, like the Virgin pilots are doing, the vast majority of mainline pilots will let bygones be bygones in the hope of a productive future.

So having said all that why can't AIPA, JPC and AFAP work together, as seperate units under the umbrella of one parent organisation? Cohesive but still independant.

This is the only way that any of us have any real hope, pilot shortage or no pilot shortage.....

I was at that meeting with the above mentioned stooge. You could have literally heard a pin drop when he stated that AIPA and therefore Qantas pilots couldn't, shouldn't and wouldn't support Impulse pilots that now found them selves working for the QF group. It was one of the most embarrassing displays of head in the sand and hand up your backside management type speeches I have ever experienced.

Unfortunately, the actions of many in both camps over the past 3 years have only added to the problem. These type of muppets are usually hand picked for their jobs.

Personally Id love to see one major union that furthers the industry and pilot conditions as a whole. Blokes like Sandy just don't get it. These ranting agro posts only highlight how effectively the "Company" divided and carefully separated many groups within Qantas. For instance how about the poor ba$tards at National Jet. Pay cuts to fly the 717 and no staff travel, just to name a few of their conditions. I havent seen to many angry posts on Qroom offering support and showing a unified front.

Ive seen this for nearly 40 years now. From the most junior charter guy at a country aerodrome to well established jet pilots within major airlines, greed and modern day style of self serving ignorance is and will always be exploited by employers chasing every saving.

While ever we argue and sling mud we all loose. An Australian pilot union that covers everyone from the top to the bottom would make this type of rubbish a lot more difficult for companies to implement. Until then all we can do is try our best against in an ever increasingly difficult environment

DM.