Jetstar International Losing Pilots Already?
 

Can anyone confirm that JI have just lost seven of the newly recruited pilots to Korean? Apparently Korean are offering two weeks on then two off with all commuting expenses paid.

Don't know about J* losses but...
 

Have heard from CX crewroom notice about an offer of 3-weeks-on/2-off with GUARANTEED 1st-class paxing from/to home port; and all for A$30K/month for Captains. Still need the confirmation of real evidence though... Interesting nonetheless.:ok:

What?...leave Jetstar International?????!!! But they fly brand new A330's and they have the JPC looking after them? How can anybody leave JI? The most dynamic company in the Southern hemisphere!!..

On $360,000 per annum, I expect they would get more than just Jetstar pilots applying...:ok:

Jetsbest
Not at CX. Wish it was but that is just a fanciful story. Pay only goes down here, not up and certainly not up for new joiners. It sounds more like the rumour going round of what Korean Air is offering except even they aren’t that good with the pay. From what I understand it is more like US$14000.00 per month tax free with guaranteed first class travel back to Australia. I’ve only heard this second hand though and I can’t substantiate it.

A330
US$10,100 per month net (after Korean tax paid by RAL)
During the training period the monthly salary payment will be:
US$7,400 per month (after Korean tax paid by RAL)

This is a cut'n'paste directly from the Rishworth contract. Not quite 30k/mth.

So from 30K to 10K... i guess it is a rumour network!


Aussie

30K Aus before tax is not that far removed from 10K US after tax.

I think there would be per diems on top of that too.

US$10 000 = A$13 000, If that's in hand plus allowances and accommodation whilst in Korea, not a bad deal. Just make sure you set things up with your accountant before you leave, to avoid falling foul of the tax laws re residence. I heard some Australian pilots flying for Korean Air get to spend more time in Oz than QF long haul pilots.

I believe that the Korean accommodation is a hotel room, nothing more. Be very careful if you claim non-residency with this type of accommodation, especially with your family living in Australia.

Short answer 404, broadly speaking you can't.

What would it matter anyway?

Two things that Australian pilots have done since the advent of Virgin Blue- they have taken away the two most important supply & demand factors.

1) Attrition. If you are expensive to replace, they will pay to keep you.However, J* & VB pilots have paid for their training so they are inexpensive to replace.Hence, attrition means little!

2) Experience. If airlines get away without relying on experience, it opens the gene pool to all and sundry. If an airline such as Virgin Blue or J*, go through expansion phases, and get away with upgrading inexperienced pilots relatively quickly, it won't auger well for remuneration.

Consider this with point one and anecdotal evidence of the standards at Australian LCC's, and you have the parlous state of affairs for pilots in Oz!

Qantas pilots will deliver this one on a platter to the taxman- and why wouldn't they?

Oh, let us all face east to Coward Street and pay hommage to the Skygods 5 times a day. Forgive me Skygod for coming to your table and drinking the same water and flying in the same airspace as you, gracious Skygod...............................W*NK3R:E

Gnadenberg,
My mother taught me when I was a child to not worship false idols. Suggest you take that advice and stop playing with that naked image in the mirror on those lonely overnights.

Gnadenburg
I don’t work for a LCC and never will on principle but comments like that are plain stupid, ill-informed and false and do absolutely nothing to help you and the rest of the industry unite to improve conditions for all. Some on this forum on both sides need a reality check. How the hell do you think things have got so bad in Australia? It’s because management uses divide and conquer to push down conditions and comments like that are playing straight into their hands. Stop the “HE” man attitudes and start engaging your LCC brethren and vv because if you don’t it’s all over Red Rover. Game set and match to airline management.

Rant over.:yuk:

alidad

You must be from a low cost gene pool with an outburst like that. Debate the issue and give up on the 'gay like' outbursts. I don't work for QF- yet every second post I make I get labelled a QF tosser ( they must be good blokes ).

But, if I were a QF pilot, with J* pilots using their reduced conditions of service merely as a means to progress to the contract world, I would present their heads on a platter to the ATO ( Australian Taxation Office ).

Especially, in the case of former J* pilots number crunching packages without factoring in Australian taxation. Why should someone undercut you and then become a tax evader to make ends meet? :=

Yes it was a rant 404.

And my point reference the standards at LCC's was systemic- and not pointed toward the individual! The money LCC's invest in TRG would be significantly less than QF say.

Lucky for you BTW, you have the English, Star Chamber, high failure rates etc. If you had the LCC philosphy & training structure of Virgin Blue or J*, I doubt you would be getting your 30K a month package at CX.:uhoh:

Not just Korean. Now with the whole JI RDOs saga there are a whole list of airlines who can guarantee more time in Oz than JI (with basings o/s). Heard EVA were doing 8 days a month in Oz? Suddenly the 'they-just-wanna-come-home' argument is quashed...

Wow. I'm not sure it is the experience level of pilots that we should be worried about. It's more the maturity level. This guy is not the only one. Could we grow up please.

Gardenburglar,
Please, for all our benefit, show us an industry in Australia that is not trying their damnest to become "low cost"
Same old story. Dont blame the staff. Blame our wonderful Govenment.

Oh and before you get up on your "best pilot in the world" highhorse, please understand that the rest of the pilot world has been waiting very patiently for you lot to finally make a stand against the rodents nibbling at everyones raft. The really sad thing is, now that the rodents have finished the raft and are now nibbling at your own precious RMW boots you are still sitting there with a "roo in the headlight" gaze doing f&*kall about it!

You blokes were too good for everyone else during "that event" so lay in the bed you made!

bbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz z

Gnadenburg

You really like spinning some s**t for someone who doesn’t work for QF.
You prove to me that apart from the initial endorsement that LCC’s in Australia spend less on training than QF. QF just like CX has been doing their darnedest to cut training costs where ever they can. The number of sims at both companies that a pilot can expect to see have been cut to the bone. We have a former C&T from DJ working as a sim instructor here at CX. I know exactly what the average DJ guy has to go through and it aint much different from what a CX or a QF guy has to go through.
As for the star chamber at CX. Well yes it can be a pain in the arse as I have come foul of it myself but have learnt from it. It’s a case of learning to play the game. By the way the command pass rate on the bus for the last six months has been around 85% and in the 90’s on the B777.
As for the AUD$30K you think the average CX guy earns. I’m getting sick of you mouthing off that BS. The average F/O would be on about half that and Capt would be about AUD$5K short. This is including housing as well. Don’t get me started either on what an Aus based CX F/O or Capt earns because quite frankly if they heard you say what you have just said they would probably punch your lights out.

Next time I suggest you get your information correct before quoting it as fact here because it makes the rest of your argument look, well, made up.

404,

Have you seen the QF sim and training centre in Sydney?

I have been there in the last month, apart from the odd new sim, I think the whole centre is looking quite tired, especially the crew EP training area!! Could do with a complete revamp.:hmm:

They're not exactly cheap and especially the latest A380 just installed!

The point is QF have invested substantially over the decades so maybe we can forgive the person who originally picked the brown bricks! ;)

Wingspar

Whether a company buys their own sims or uses someone else’s makes no difference to the quality of the training and checking as long as they have control of it. Actually I think DJ do own one or two of their own sims. Just because they don’t have as many as QF is more a case of who operates more and differing types of aircraft than anything else.

Yes I have been to the QF training centre at Mascot. It’s bigger than DJ’s simply because they have to house more sims. Given time just like QF has, I’m sure that DJ will have a large training centre. They just don’t need one as big as QF’s, certainly not right now.

Buzzy

You aren't the brightest. And your comprehension lacking if you re-read my previous.

And regarding that "event", I would suggest the greatest betrayal of conditions of service for pilots in this country, was from former 89ers repatriating to create the T&C's at Virgin Blue!

If you leave Buzzy, you don't affect the bottom line. From the day you paid for your own training, you took away Virgin Blue's investment risk. You are cheap and simple to replace. You, as attrition, mean nothing!

I can see how you could fall foul of Star Chamber C404. But have you learn't your lesson? You are very aggressive.

Perhaps, if you were as creative in accounting as Virgin Blue pilots at social events, you could add allowances, superannuation and other incidentals to drag that package toward 30K a month. And in a strict discussion of market forces, let us consider captains, it's far easier to compare payscales, costs and industry demand.

Buzzy Versus C404. Low Cost Pilot versus Legacy Pilot.

From the day you did your interviews to the day you started line flying, how much did each of you cost your respective employer?

Buzzy? Near zero or perhaps that single sim' session?

C404? C'mon. Conservatively? How long were you on the payrole before you were revenue?

What does it cost to get a Captain trained at a legacy carrier versus a low cost carrier?

Now, Buzzy & C404 decide to leave the company for Korean Airlines. What did Buzzy cost the company in lost investment and what will his replacement cost be? Versus C404?

J* pilots leaving for Korean is meaningless. Market forces are irrelevant and attrition replacement cost effective. Conditions won't improve!

And of course, if Low Cost Pilots are now trying to fund retirement as tax evaders. Dob them in!

Why slew market forces further against you?

I mean really Gardenburglar!
3 posts in half an hour from you. Pacing around your apartment, rubbing your moustache and hissing at the world. Thinking of ways to berate everyone but your important self.

He says. Herin is the character of Gnadenburg.

:ok: Thats all from me thanks:ok:

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzz

Mr Buzzy, its a bit rich you trying to put others down, when clearly when you make posts like this your standards are questionable.

More to the point, since 1989, QANTAS would have employed nearly 1000+ pilots (and in fact nearly 1000 pilots from 1999) (or roughly just under half the current total of pilots) many of which would have had nothing to do with that event, in fact I would suggest a large majority were still in school at the time.

Agreed entirely Blueloo,

every "low cost" pilot worldwide has been tarred by gardenburgar's same brush; just handing back a similar meaningless line.

:ok:

bbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzz

Gnadenburg
Actually my coming foul of the “Start Chamber” was my fault and it wasn’t for political reasons. I’ve flown on numerous occasions with all the airbus management pilots at CX and they know I am one of the more pleasant F/O’s to fly with. I am the last person if you knew me to call “aggressive”. Assertive is more appropriate.
I am very creative with accounting as I should be being a CPA. In those figures I gave you of what a CX F/O and Capt earn, I included the housing allowance.

I have many QF mates who just shake their heads at some of the numb nuts within their company that come on this forum and slag off the abilities and professionalism of their LCC brethren, simply because they do the same job for less dosh. Get over it shags. You need to shake hands with them and start working together as a collective group to improve the conditions for all. This goes for you too Buzzy.
I just like you don’t like the fact that these LCC make the new applicant pay for their endorsement. I would has it a guess that most LCC pilots hate it as well. Does this make them less professional than you and me? No, of course not. Excluding the initial endorsement costs which are small compared to the ongoing training cost, the pilot at a LCC in Aus has to go through all the same regulatory BS that a pilot at QF does every year. As I said the real costs lye in the ongoing checking and training a pilot must undergo to maintain his/her licence and upgrade. Here the cost per pilot would be about the same. The longer a pilot stays with a particular carrier the more it costs the airline to lose them, period.
If they leave in such numbers as to disrupt the airlines operations, it will.

Yep, the odd new sim, would that be the new 767 simulator which replaced the old one? Or the new A380 sim, or the newly upgraded 744 sim with the rest of the fleet being individually upgraded as I type. Also believe there is a new Dash 8 sim in there too, but may be mistaken there.

But heaven forbid if the centre looks tired even though where the actually training takes place is state of the art...:ugh:

Can anybody answer the original question though?

Yes, and it's getting a bit bloody boring ...

How about some of the Jetstar guys enlighten us.........................

Well I would agree, some of the equipment the training takes place on maybe state of the art, but that does not necessarily mean that the training itself reaches the same high standards, nor that they are the world leaders in training practices!

Lets face it, most QF guys with the exception of a few ex Ansett types, have only ever flown with QF, so they have nothing to compare the standards too, so of course they are of the opinion that QF is number 1 in training practices.

It's a big world out there and some of the LCC's may even be doing things a little better than their Legacy counterparts...

Out of interest, I too would like to know the answer to the original question!:ok:

Actually I think you would find most QF guys would think how bad QF training is (and maybe this is biased because they have no-one to compare how bad others are...????)

In fact QF does very little training, and a lot of testing. Guys are meant to be able to perform to a high standard with virtually nil training.

The good thing is that the short haul system seems to have seen the light, and is in fact ramping up the training which is fantastic compared to the old system.

Well, one can only assume that due to the lack of a denial from any Jetstar PPRUNER's that these pilots have actually left.

Sorry for the thread drift but I disagree. Having gone through a conversion in the last 12 months I was very impressed with the 'training' that was provided compared to my last training course about nine years earlier. I've also noticed that the cyclic's have had a huge amount of training added to them over the last couple of years.

There are other things in QF training that are less than impressive but I believe the system is making good efforts at improving the delivery of 'training' in terms of simulators and so on.