Qantas pilots to agree to pay freeze?
 

Any of you Qantas pilots out there know anything about agreeing to a three year pay freeze?

You might want to know that if you do that, you will be taking the rest of the QF group with you.

QF Link have already put the hammers on their people and contractors. "Our pilots will be on a wage freeze, your people will have to follow suit."

So, will you guys stand firm and protect industry conditions?

Mate, have a look around then open your mouth.

Nothing has been agreed to, in fact the association and the company are still poles apart in terms of demands.
Even if QF rolled and offered something reasonable, it is doubtful that it would be
a) Offered to the members due to new issues revolving around the workchoices lawsone
b) If voted on , unlikely it would get up as NO crew trust management at all, and would see that any agreement is probably just a set up for something BAD in the future.

The QF 73 drivers are some of the most efficient and profitable pilots in the region (yeh, they are paid reasonably well, but remember that 5 years ago they were the cheap 73 pilots!!)
QF management see them as a good place to start, so while you feel threatened on their behalf, be aware that the guys themselves aren't impressed, aren't going to roll over and have had enough.
QF are hitting their heads against a brick wall here this time.

So, will you guys stand firm and protect industry conditions?
There are some other groups of pilots who could ask themselves that question...........

Lets hope that your QF 737 colleagues don't use the 'he did it first' excuse. Especially after all the cr@p they gave Jetstar pilots.

So let me check the facts thus far. Qantas is pushing you guys to accept a type freeze. It is on the table. You are relying on everyone to vote it down. But it is a possibility that they might grumble and take it.

We don't have to look to far back to see an AIPA 'vote it down' directive on a QF EBA being ignored. The last one got up, much to the disgust of many PPRUNErs.

I am not having a go at you mate. I really hope that you guys throw it out. Because it wont be just yourselves that you will shaft if you don't. You will be sh!tting in everybody's nest.

I sincerely hope that I am wrong. Good luck.

Kransky, why would AIPA negotiate an EBA then direct people to vote it down? Get your facts straight.

There was no AIPA "vote it down" directive. What happened was that the previous regime negotiated that deal and members of the incoming regime urged it to be voted down and were ignored by the majority.

Aipa hasn't signed off an anything the company has "offered" re: the SH EBA.

Correct.

Incorrect. There is nothing to vote down yet. AIPA hasn't 'agreed' with the company to even bother putting it to the vote.

Possibly but time actually works for AIPA in the medium term rather than for QF.


The nest is already well and truely spoiled. What we will see in the SH EBA and the LH EBA to follow shortly is how well we as a pilot group can 'clean up' the ****e that already exists courtesy of others. It will be a difficult prospect given that there are some amongst a groups of pilots affiliated with the QF group (and who reside on the East Island) who have previously approached QF to fly 767 and other types on CURRENT crappy east island conditions. So whilst QF mainline crew try our damndest to stop some of our own we have others that live close by trying to crap in ours as well! :ugh:

As do I! :(

The "east islanders" Keg, have crappy conditions, but not nearly as bad as Express Freighters, yet AIPA have been silent in their drive to obtain that flying for existing QF Pilots. We have a case of an excess of B737 pilots in mainline, while EFA are recruiting?

Industrial activity and tactics are difficult - deciding which battle is worth the fight is often a difficult call. I would have thought that the EFA battle was one that we should have won.:suspect:

AIPA have not accepted any deal put forward for the current EBA(shorthaul). Nor as you would expect has any deal been put to the pilots to vote on. Basically the deal has been so insultingly bad it hasnt even been worth considering.

The whole thing is disgusting. Dixon and his communist mates need a good hard look at themselves.

Kransky, how do you come to the conclusion that the 73 guys will be sh1tting in everybody's nest? I'm curious, and how do you come to the conclusion that they gave the Jetstar fringe dwellers cr@p without good reason?

I think you should remember who has crapped in everyones nest here mate, and it won't be the 73 guys...in fact, why dont you go grab yourself a copy of the Jetstar Pilot Management Guide and take a real look at the culprits here.

Lets not forget that RH and his band of merry men at the JPC are responsible for this crap..the mentality of we'll scrag for the work like we did in Impulse days, then try and fight for better pay later on is going to backfire...look at the A330 guys from the desert who didn't even bother showing up for groundschool recently...

You want to direct your frustration at people kransky, do it to the people who deserve it, alternatively, vote with your feet and leave, thats about the only thing self respecting pilots can do these days.

Keg,

Always good to read your posts, you gave me the answer I needed. Basically QF are telling QF link people that the pay freeze is something they want. But it isn't even in a document to be voted on.

Cheers, that is good to know.:ok:

Pete Conrad,

Mate try not to read what I am saying as dumping on QF SH. When it comes to "us and them" try to remember that the "us" should be all pilots and the "them" should be the management.

What would be good is for some of the JQ pilots to stop thinking "stuff them, they told us to stuff off back when we approached them." Not helpful.

Equally not helpful is the way some, not all, QF pilots have sledged JQ pilots. Even if you guys are right, and JPC and JQ have stuffed it up for the industry all on their own (which I doubt), your mates continue to lay the blame at their feet.

Time for laying blame is over. It is in YOUR interest to get over it, whatever you think it is, and get the hell on with engaging with everybody. AIPA, JPC, AFAP, TWU, NZALPA.

Instead we have AIPA effectively taking JPC to court over the international flying issue. QF might be the respondent, but the guts of it is QF pilots going to court to stop JQ pilots flying "their" routes.

That is just plain not going to work out good for pilots in the long run.

JQ are here, engage not sue. Also flying jets in this country are Virgin, NJS, Alliance, Skywest, OzJet. Now you can think what you like about those operations, but they fly 80-180 seat narrowbody jets.

Ok, so you guys are better than us. Fine. But on paper we have a few thousand hrs jet. In EFIS/FMS/Glass/automated, whatever you prefer to call it. We have ATPL, class 1 medical, CAR 217 in sims. Like you.

So watch out. We CAN do your job. I like it where I am right now. Who the hell wants to live in Sydney, terrible place IMHO.

Keep me out of your way. Tell us what is going on, what you are really being threatened with, and we will know more when QF comes to scare us and try and put the screws on us.

"Keep your allies close, and your enemies closer!" Sun Tzu, Art of War.

kransky...what the hell do you think we have all being trying to do????!!!!

May I also add, re read your previous posts!

And the difference is?

The difference is that there was no directive. How could their be? The EBA was negotiated by the then executive of AIPA. Why would they issue a directive to vote no to what they had just negotiated?

AIPA isn't suing the JPC. All you are showing is that you have no idea about what that case is about. In fact, if AIPA wins then Jetstar pilots aren't going to lose international flying, they may have a very big win.

Borg, Pete, I truly hope that you are right, that your confidence in your colleagues is well placed, and that I am wrong.

Again, good luck.

Not trying to be divisive but why did the JPC accept such a crap deal when they had the ball in their court? It's about time we all stood together on this issue.
Also, seeing the company wants convergence with Virgin, when do we start seeing the execs packages starting to converge with their Virgin counterparts? Got to lead by example....

Often wondered this myself. In most countries there is a SHORTAGE of pilots. Why the hell didn't Jetstar just leave the deal as is and let QF source the pilots they need elsewhere. People aren't going to move all around the world for the money Jetstar is offering. As they discovered when they started talking to the lads from emirates. Alot of the major airlines around the world ARE PAYING for people to be trained. Why the hell are we paying for everything and taking absolute scheissen housen pay at the same time??

Seriously anyone from Jetstar wish to enlighten us as to what the logic was here?

Pete Conrad

Blah Blah Blah Jetstar Blah Blah Blah Jetstar Blah Blah Blah Jetstar Blah Blah Blah Jetstar Blah Blah Blah Jetstar Blah Blah Blah Jetstar Blah Blah Blah Jetstar Blah Blah Blah Jetstar:ugh:

Get help......LOSER!!!

Kransky, if QF are telling you that mainline 737 pilots are happy for a pay freeze, or have agreed to a pay freeze, or are hinting they'd be agreeable to a pay freeze, or are negotiating a pay freeze then they are seriously lying to you. I mean, it wouldn't even be a little fib. It would be a great big whopper!

Which window will we look through today
 

Low cost airline models, J star and V blue. Folks paying for their own endorsements and TRG. Scroll forward to five yrs from now and lets look through the "round window" when all the low cost model aircrew have commands on new shiny jets, new folks entering the industry will have accepted the remuneration aspects of the day and surprise surprise QF aircrew will be paid approx 30% less.

As for folks that talk about standing and your digs, bandying together, becomming industrially organised, joining unions-Please!!!! Folks will still need to pay their bills, mortgages, kids school fees and eat. Hence folks will either leave the industry or work for less. There will be no shortage of kids wanting to punt a light twin around for $100k. Better get used to it, lower $$$$$ remuneration contracts are the way of the future for airlines employees as the companies attempt to exist and survive under rising fuel and aviation costs.

Glad to be away from the noise!

Max

:{

maxeemum,
Obviously you heard that story at the last amangemtn (I meant that....) meeting at J*.
Quite a story too.

Sorry to be a bore, but consider how many people are learning to fly now, and consider how many will take that punt with no chance of the elusive high paying job.
Maybe some will pay the big bucks and then, like many other industries, realise that Oz is a basket case and bugger off o.s., thus joining the oft reported brain drain occuring to Oz right now.

Not all crew will have their command, other than being physically impossible, abruptly the music stops leaving some peed off pilots who have already bought thier 4 bar epps, still sitting in the rh seat.
All airline expansion happens this way, right place/right time and all that...

The reality you phrophecise may occur in Oz temporarily but as we are already seeing, the supply/demand whatsamabob turns of its own accord.

Did I hear something about A330 drivers just not turn up to the J* groundschool?

I hate to point out the fairly fundamental flaw in your argument which involves a distinct lack of "kids" actually becoming qualified to punt around the said "light twin" these days. Shortages are already biting in several areas and there is no prospect whatsoever of these becoming anything but worse while the cost of qualifications/training from ab-initio remains so exhorbitantly high and wages are going downwards. What sort of schoolboy idiot dreams of getting into a career like that?

And yeah, let me just look at my notes here of the last few years of QF profit margins.......hmmmm.......geez......they're only just surviving aren't they? Gosh, tetering on the brink of bankruptcy!:rolleyes:

Damn, you just beat me to it Sonny! Well, maybe he will be more aware of his logical fallacy if it's pointed out twice!

Bursting the J* crewing bubble
 

Was so happy with my last post I pressed submit twice....

Yep, you're right there DutchRoll, things must be 'BAD'...
Geoff only got 7 million to sign up again !
Sol made 9 mill and his share price is absolutley @@#$%%^ !!! :ugh:

Typical Impulse defensive attitude
 

Lets go rated..you just lost the argument!

What a crack up!!!
 

Sunny Jim and Dutch Rolly Polly,

What a crack up. You guys must be linked to your own local area network (LAN). The prophecy I espouse actually comes from many of your own QF Ranks. Straight from the horses mouth from 3 senior QF Captains at the last BBQ. No Qantas is not about to roll inverted and pull through however rationalisation is the dirty word of the 00's, again these are not my words, these are the words from senior guys in your ranks. They are also of the opinion that buying a job and paying fro your own endorsements will only result in ever spiralling vertical circles up peoples own arse h - - es. Gives management more control and keeps the new guys in the poor house longer.

Good luck with the whole game.

Max

:ok:

Yes and as we all know senior QANTAS captains know everything.:D

That will go down as one of the more lame attempts of providing creditibility to a post. Well done.

The argument in my previous post still stands uncontested.

So you went to a BBQ. There were people at it. Oh, yeah, that's right - there are unfortunately a small number of senior Qantas captains who have already seen the good times, will retire fairly soon, and could not give a teeny weeny sh** about what will happen to those of us who have many years to go! (yeah I've actually spoken to a couple of them, and it's a depressing experience)

Back to Waratah Nat Park for you Sunny
 

Sunny Jim,

Just passing on the good oil. Since you FAILED your last aircew med hearing test, I'll say it again, these are not my words these are your industry buds. Scoring points was never my intent, just passing on what will hopefully never raise its head in Oz airline aviation work place practices.

Mate you almost raised my heart rate above 45 BPM, however, the easiest way to look like a dick h - - d is to argue with one. Hence I'm off to the next BBQ.

Love my BBQ's.

Arrrrrrrugah!!!!!!

Cred? 1g env, S & L, Short haul, light twin-What am I missing????, hanging out with Tony Bonner at Camp Freddie?

Max

:p

Pete Conrad

OK...i just lost...you win...enjoy the win my friend....:D

Oh I do lets go rated... I do indeed.

What the @#@k! Where do you think your coming from Kransky?

You want to talk about fellow members in the group destroying conditions for others. How about our group in QLD undercutting Easterns just so they could fly the new Dash. Get a grip.

Any decision made by the 737 group will be made to help themselves and rightly so. For all they will have to do is look to see how the rest of the group is undercutting eachother and wonder how cheap you would fly the 737 for if offered.

My bet is you would do it for less than Jet*. So if you and I get screwed from the decision, bad luck. This is aviation in all its glory and if we dont like it, then we can all go overseas were apparantley there is a shortage.

But sadly Riddick, there is no shortage of Australian pilots abroad who: break ranks, scab, undercut at rates that make third world pilots shudder and even drop expatriate packages so they can get into a shiny jet ( and it doesn't always have to be shiny ). Australian pilots are the scurge of the industry and we make the Kiwis look good.

I started shaking my head at the drongos of Virgin Blue, who paid for their endorsement and then worked for low pay rates, with no overtime and consequential to all this, no lifestyle. It's just an Australian thing, a by-product of a general aviation mentality and 1989 perhaps, where great gains were made my opportunists.

The pilot shortage ( supposed ) abroad will me countered in someway, by airlines basing Australians in Australia, on the poor pay and conditions that have been created locally by VB, J*, NJS and the like.

This shortage will not be solved anytime soon:

*Global fleet doubles (additional 17,600 units) 2005-2025: BOEING (pdf) page 6.

*Working population will stall in Australia: Dept Family & Community Services

Boeing was quoted several months ago in The Australian (Aviation section) suggesting the global pilot demand over the next 20 years is approx 18,000 per year & current training rate is 5,000. You do the maths.
Yes, airline managements have played a good game with the hand they were dealt until now, however they cannot create pilots out of thin air. They cannot hold back the tide, no matter what IR laws are drafted in their favour. Not even well intentioned governments can change demographics.
The short term will be challenging for those alrealy deeply involved in the industry. Longer term, however someone is going to have to spend a Sh#tload of money to train enough crew just to replace those retiring, let alone expansion.
Over the last 10 years I suspect the "dream" that was aviation has been replaced by the "dream" that is Macquarie Bank et al as corporate pay heads for the stratosphere.

N20
Awesome post, it is economics 101. It is a great snow job concocted by politicians and ably assisted by Dixon et al.

The simple reality is that a slab of Australia's workforce will retire in the next
5-10 years. (Given that every empire has it's natural demise, perhaps ours is in decline). The impact of this will be seen across all aspects of our society. It will impact the property market, the stock market even retail markets. We have not seen changes like this in the history of the western world.....

Dixon and Joyce will not be able to turn back this tide. :E

N2O

Good post, however........... in an Australian context let us consider!

There will never be a pilot shortage in Australia because of GA and a relatively large military aviation.

In terms of preserving QF conditions of service, we haven't even begun to consider expatriate Australian pilots who want to repatriate in the upcoming years.There would conservatively be 5000 plus, highly qualified and who could meet any spike in demand for Australian pilots at home ( look at 89 or the VB set up ). At the very least, financially, they would have a house paid off in Oz, but most I know are worth between 2 and 80 million AUD.

J* pay, tax breaks ( whether self-induced whilst abroad or government reform ) and a semblance of a lifestyle would bring home enough to start a QF size airline a few times over.

Don't kid yourselves. Relying on demographics or inapplicable ( to Australia ) market forces isn't going to save Australian pilots from deteriorating pay!

Why the expats won't come home
 

I don't think many expats will be comming home if they have to give half their Superannuation to the government, this is show stopper. See HERE.

That's one avenue to repatriate wealth. There are many means.

I'm not playing Devil's Advocate here. But I believe airline management will be one step ahead of Australian pilots- and if they ever need to, will bring home the masses for J* pay and a lure of lifestyle.

"The freight industry can address its driver shortage partly by updating a payment system akin to that for pieceworkers"
Chris Mullett (editor PowerToque Magazine)
...
"The increasing level of professionalism required to drive a multicombination B-double or B-triple should result in annual pay rates being set at about $85,000 and $100,000 respectively, commensurate with the responsibility and skill required.
Then the industry can improve its image, showing a high degree of professionalism, knowledge and skill required in today's freight transport. This in turn will attract drivers with the right attitudes and skill sets for the industry"
The Australian Financial Review, Freight & transport special report 12 Oct 2006

I'm pretty confident that the big trucking companies were "one step ahead" of their drivers too, yet they are obviously having trouble recruiting. I'm sure the training is not nearly as expensive as CPL/ Jet endorement combination.
I agree with you, there will always be a "lifestyle discount" that will be applied for the privilage of paying tax in Oz. However, as the more correct term experience shortage begins to park aeroplanes parked against the fence, overseas operators will have to start increasing their T&C. I believe other operators basing crews in Oz is one thing that really does worry QF (market forces). Currently we have an effective monopsony [wikipedia], however basings would change that.
Just as some expats will return with a sack full of booty, others will depart. Whilst Australia is a great place, many of the 750,000 Oz disporia (source Goodweekend, recent article) decided that they would prefer to live elsewhere for a large number of reasons.
Whispers are that the J* A330 expat recruitment response has been "underwelming", despite certain public statements. Only time will tell.

GA all over again
 

Are you blokes all living in fairyland???
Most of you are trying to figure out how to get more MUNNY. So are the airlines. And the flying schools. And everyone has a story which they think will influence things in their favour.
It will all be OK next year. There will be a big shortage of pilots. The flying schools have been saying that for decades. But it won't happen this year. Somehow, next year never seems to get here.
And the airlines are trying to steal each others pilots. Or steal them from the Air Force. Or get them to go and get lots of training and experience in GA.
It's cheaper and easier that way.

And only in Australia?

Let's look. In recent times I have spoken to a pilot who "purchased" 300 hours of 737 FO time, with an Asian airline, and found himself out of a job at 350 hours.

Another had five years time in a Lear jet in the USA, including about a year as Captain.

These two were back in Australia, looking for a job in Central Australia, flying piston engined aircraft.

Another young man, a practising CPL, MECIR with about 1200 hours went off to the UK where he was going to pay 60,000 english pounds for a DHC-8 course.

These people get desparate, when they have spent lots of MUNNY they have not got, to get their training. They will do almost anything to reverse the cash flow. You will not get them to hold out for better pay.
The airlines love it. And most of todays Australian airline pilots have helped the airlines make it that way. What they did to GA is now happening to airlines. It is not "GA thinking". It is "Australian pilot thinking", and now it has started, it appears that it is unstoppable.

There may be a shortage of experienced captains who will work cheap. Is there?

I think there are still some respectable airlines in the world that work with their wannabies from an early stage and then give them a long term career. But it appears that there are some organisations out there exploiting new pilots and dumping them, then exploiting more.

It's all to do with MUNNY. Such is aviation. You reap what you sow. And the seeds are sown.

The bitter harvest
 

Posted by air_med in another thread
"Bushy.
Like you I would have been a surprise if there were not many applicants lining up for a RFDS gig, but sadly it is true.
I know for a fact that one RFDS base put an ad out a few weeks ago and only got 2 replies, did the same thing then next week and got none.
Wally hit the nail on the head, they are taking single engine time guys with low multi time, outback and remote experience is low, but are prepared to work with and help the new one's out. The thing that does make us angry is that, having a doctor in the back and a nurse reading a book on along night home and the wage bill for the 2 of them is 300,000, yet the poor guy up the front is just getting 52-55000. You would think with a country in high boom, that all RFDS bases, start hitting the goverment for more money to get extra equipment, able for bases to put on more pilots and staff, but no, they have to scrap the bottom of the barrell to make ends meet."


"THE NEW PARADISE FOR WORKERS
The Australian Editoral Friday 13 October 2006
Just as the 1990' was the decade that broke the back of inflation, so the first decade of the 21st century will go down as the time when the job market turned sharply in favour of labour. Yesterday's numbers confirmed unemployment at lows not seen since the optimism of the early Whitlam government. A generation of stubbornly high unemployment is giving way to chronic labour shortages, particularly for skilled labour. The frenzied demand for labour sparked by the China-driven resources boom is part of the equation. But we are now at the point where the supply of labour is taking a demographic step down, as the number of young job entrants falls at one end and the baby boomers move into retirement at the other. In short, the structural balance of power has moved in favour if labour. Australia has become the the sort of workers paradise that the pioneers of the frontier nation celebrated in the late 19th century.
..."

How about this one by Bendo from this thread
"I got out of the industry after Ansett - too many pilots available at my level (twin IFR Charter) and wise, I thought, to let the dust settle.

I kept instructing about 300 hours/year and I am working in the mining industry earning over $2,000/week for my 40 hours. Yes it is dirty and yes there is shift work... but it is also quite technical in parts and reasonably challenging.

With bu99er-all experience or qualifications I am earning close to that which the Mining Engineers are paid, and I go home each night without worrying about work. It is true for many professions - an old girlfriend is an Elec. Engineer and she designed & certified much of the lighting around the Olympic site in Sydney... AND YET she is paid half the salary of the tradesmen who installed it.

Is there a shortage of experienced pilots? Well after 5 years of applications I am suddenly getting offers of interview with those Regionals I always wanted to fly for. There is nothing about my application that has become more competitive - what other reason than a shortage of experienced drivers? :rolleyes:

Will I uproot my family and leave the town that has become home (not to mention the reMUNeration), merely to drive turboprops, on the gamble that it might lead further up the tree? :ugh: :( :{ ... go from $120k in the country to $45k in Sydney?"

Flying just aint sexy any more. The industry (generalisation) has none nothing to help its cause.
Bushy, your intuition about the aviation world may have come from a long career in the business, and I respect that. However, the next 30 years are not going to be a repetition of the last. Things are going to be very different.