Racing to the bottom.
 

Another tragic day for professional aviation in Australia.

How sad that the only way for NJS pilots to keep their job was to reduce their own terms and conditions. I do not blame them; in the same circumstances I would most likely do the same.

My only question is, when are we going to hit rock bottom?

Pick up the newspaper and read about prospective interest rate rises due to inflationary wage pressure. Read on about various Union claims and wins for 18% over 3 years. Keep reading about the healthy airline travel figures, the highest in years.

Rumour suggests that Jetstar are having trouble crewing their aircraft due to a pilot shortage. Rumours also suggest that airlines like Emirates are calling previously passed over candidates.

So how is it that in this bullish environment pilots are either still trading off terms and conditions for a paltry 3% p.a (AIPA) rise, or worse, taking pay cuts (NJS) to simply keep their jobs.

Some may say that $110k is still too much for a 717 Captain. Consider that some Jetstar and Virginblue Captains had little more than 5 years total flying experience before achieving commands. Once these pilots achieved command then the only way to argue for pay increases are bottom line benefits.

Contrast then, pilots, who potentially after 5 years have achieved the holy grail of aviation, a jet command, with other professionals.

A law, student is looking at a minimum of 5 years to simply achieve degree status, followed by 6 months study at the college of law for admission as a Barrister or Solicitor. All this to be paid $45 - $50k. With 5 years experience they MAY be earning $110k. How many pilots achieved the necessary results to study law at Uni?

A medical student will study for 7 years before graduation, they will then need to work in the hospital system for a number of years in order to gain experience. Starting salary, $70 – 80k after 7 years of study. Would you study 7 years to fly?

Accounting, 3 years study plus for a starting salary of $40k. Maybe $110k with 5 years experience AFTER the degree and IF you are very good.

Of course many would argue that the airline pilots carry huge responsibility and are checked 4 times a year etc, etc. All true, but so are train drivers, and bus and ferry drivers (responsibility)

So when will we reach the bottom?

I suspect that things can get worse. After Ansett, I had pilots tell me that they would fly (in command) for $50k just to keep their jobs, and why not, they were working as night shelf packers at Coles for $15 per hour, $50k to keep your hands clean sounds good.

Are we at a crossroads in Australian aviation where the profession of airline pilot is being whittled away to ‘plane driver’? In its heyday, a locomotive engineer was a highly respected individual, well remunerated and considered a professional. How many of you scoffed at my earlier remark regarding train drivers?

So when will we reach the bottom?

Can we stop the race?

Is it reversible?



:( :{

In a recent Readers Digest Survey, readers were asked to rank a list of professions from most to least trusted. At the top were Firies, next Ambo's, and third were PILOTS. The list contained 25 or 30 different occupations, and lawyers were near the bottom, as were car and real estate salesmen. Fairly predictable.

In another way of posing longjohn's question, how long will it be before we as professional aviators drop down that list.

Personally, I am proud to be a trusted professional. But when guys like Ydraw come along, a yobbo with no real idea of aviation, who simply wants to "mix it up", seemingly just for the sake of it, well what chance do we really have.

And unfortunately, there are many yobbo's out there. Pick up the paper any given day and read about the "expert" accounts from some goon who watched an aeroplane come to an unfortunate end.

I don't give us much longer, because Mr and Mrs Average Yobbo don't really understand what it is that we do, but they have convinced themselves that they DO. That can only bring us down. :{

Combine that with our own willingness to undercut one another, jeez we really don't have long at all.

I'd be interested to hear from J* pilots on this. How does it feel to have it done to you, guys?

Longjohn your figures are completely wrong. I think if you had a real look at how long it took most guys and girls to get there jet commands in VB/JQ you will find that most of us have been flying for a min 10-15 year professionally. The wages for about 98% of that group never earnt more than $15-30k in their first 5 years of flying and never got to stay at home with mummy and daddy for those 5-10 years. Unlike your other professions

I do agree with you we can't let our profession slip any lower, but no one that I can see have the balls these days to do anything about it. AS on other topics no one is willing to make any comments on our up coming EBA's

Unfortunately management knows it.


time to go drive a train!!!!:hmm:

Unfortuantely, the profession of pilot is still a HUGELY mis-understood, and under-valued area. Take as a prime example Hawke's statement "They are nothing but glorified bus drivers".

Joe Bloggs Public hasn't a clue as to the complexities of flying RPT. They have no knowledge of what we must first do to get to where we are - approx 1 year full time flying training, followed by working in GA for a few years to clock up hours - usually 1500 before an airline will look at you. Then "school" again to be trained on the particular aircraft, then line training, base checks, route checks.... yada yada yada ad infinitum.

We have to be lawyers, meteorologists, physicists, computer programmers, mathematicians - all at the same time. No specialising here...

We have on average 100 or more people's lives to look after per flight...

And when **** happens, we have to keep cool, calm and collected whilst those around us scream and whail and pray, and figure a way to resolve the situation...

And then we go home, go to sleep, and do it all again another day.

Are we under paid? Yes.

Do the airlines care? No, since we are just glorified bus drivers. Airline accountants see us as the lowest common denominator.

Australian pilots need a union with BALLS, and a UNIFIED union at that - not all these seperate neutered factions that we have in Australia today (that really are a puppet of the airline!).

It is time Australian airline pilots stood together, not apart. No more individual contracts, no more back-stabbing.

I am not advocating a return to the AFAP (we all know that could NEVER happen! :p ), but it is time we stopped thinking of ourselves alone. I am NOT going to bring 1989 into this, but you MUST admit that a LOT has happened since then, to the DETRIMENT of the industry as a whole - pilots became just a signature on a contract.

Actually THINK about this before responding in some vitriolic manner that I expect from a lot here.

Thank God..MkVIII
 

At last on PPruNE a voice of reason .Follow that man!!!

I second that motion!

IMHO it is all supply and demand.

Politics aside gentlemen:

1989 saw a mass migration of Oz pilots overseas, Group 1.

They were replaced by whatever means by Group 2.

AN went tits up and DJ filled the void with another mass training effort, Group3.

We now have THREE times the number of pilots that Australia can employ, hence the degradation of conditions.

When the airlines can't get enough crew, conditions will improve. It is happening elsewhere in the world, but our unique situation means that it will take a bit longer here.:*

What would it take to get all Australian pilots in one union? Is it possible? Where do we start guys?:confused:

Pilots outlay AT LEAST DOUBLE, and in one of the examples cited, FIVE TIMES, the number of $$$'s for their BASIC training to CPL standard.

Lawyers, doctors, and qualified accountants are almost cetainly assured of being offered a position BEFORE completion of their final exams - and if they elect to not take those offers, are able to set themselves up for not a great outlay, in their own business.

Flying is a gamble...or in many cases a gambol!!

But, from my experience - or that of one of my son's, who is engaged in one of the above - the competition is almost as cut throat.
People willing to work obscene hours for little return, whilst "The Firm" charges their work out at equally OBSCENE rates...but at the opposite end of the obscenity spectrum....until that person burns out.
Then it's "Move over, baby." - here comes up-and-coming Hotshot Mark 9,569!!
Sound familiar??

Maybe it's all a part of growing up....perhaps it's just an inherent part of the super-competitive industries in which we're all employed.
But as long as the over-supply to each vocation continues, unchecked, then things ain't gunna improve, until conditions get sooooo bad that no-one else is going to want to be a part of it!!

And AVIATION is just about at that x-road right NOW!!

(KM - "The Oracle"...note the spelling, twerb.)

I was at a mine site out in the desert the other day, doing an induction so I could carry out the job I was there to do, and lo and behold.........there sits a young chappy I knew flew in the GA sector, doing the same induction.
I asked what he was doing there and why the induction. He replied, I have to give flying a miss. I need to eat and pay bills and just can't manage it on the wages I get from flying.
I had to leave the industry for exactly the same reason, and now that brings the total of people I know personally who have left the industry for the same reason to twelve.
There is something terribly wrong with this picture.

A question... or three

Does one get paid what the value of the job is to the company

or

Does one get paid the value of what one thinks of one's self worth

or

Does one get paid what the company can afford.

I would hope that it is a combination of all three. Is it possible to work this out from company accounts that are published? The bean counters at QF don't have a clue according to this thread. Is this true?

Sorry gents, but anyone wanting to discuss the topic of this thread whilst oh so carefully avoiding any mention of that year we dare not mention is simply conducting an exercise in navel gazing, with about as much effect.

The year we dare not mention was the start of the sorry state of affairs we see today. There’s no one cause for it, but, (and I’m sorry if this offends some, but it has to be said), those pilots who took what I’ll call the path of least resistance that (or early the following) year bear a disproportionate share of the blame for the parlous state most flying careers within the industry are in today.

But, as many will hasten to inform me with varying degrees of outrage, that is all history now, and for everyone’s sake in the industry, including the short-sighted management who are throwing the proverbial baby out with the bathwater in turning the pilot’s job into one that is no longer attractive to what used to called ‘the right kind of candidate’, I really hope that someone has the charisma - (and let’s face it, the titanium balls) - to get the vast majority of Australian pilots together into one, united industrial organisation that will at least stop the rot that’s seen T & Cs on a steep down hill slope since t.y.w.d.n.m.

Sadly, I can’t see it happening, not in my lifetime at least.

Again, well said, Wiley.

As ye sow, so shall ye reap!

Compared to other professions, pilots have it easy!

For starters, there's not much training required. You can learn to fly in fewer hours than it takes to lean the guitar or a foreign language.

There's not much experience required, either. An entry-level lawyer or accountant working 8 hours per day will gain 1,500 hours' experience in just 9 months. I wouldn't be trusting my court case to someone with 9 months' experience! Of course, flying experience is more than just engine time, but even doubling the comparison to 18 months still makes for an entry-level professional.

As Kaptain M says, many young lawyers and accountants are in professional firms where they are being paid a tiny fraction of their charge-out rate. The hours are terrible and it's little wonder that most of them drop off the treadmill to seek a better life. At least pilots get to enjoy what they are doing!

Wizard of Auz, your example doesn't just apply to pilots: I've spoken to MBAs working for major consulting firms who have been working at the mines. They are shocked to find out that the mining truck drivers are earning more than they are. Most of those MBAs end up working in industry.

Animalclub, I think your options #1 and #3 apply. I don't see any logic in people getting paid the value of their self-worth. I think there's an option #4: that people get paid just above the cost of their replacement. If a company knows someone is hard to replace, they'll pay them more. If they see that there's plenty of cheaper young people eager to jump on the bottom of the bandwagon, they'll grab them instead. This is not limited to aviation, see Kaptain M's example above. It's also why many professional firms get their 2nd year staff doing first-round job interviews of young hopefuls: to give them a stark reminde that there's plenty of people ready to take their place.

Wiley, sorry, I'm not sure what you dare wish to mention. The most obvious path of least resistance I can think of is becoming a pilot in the first place. Let's face it, flying aircraft is fun! Much more so than sitting at uni listening to boring lectures. If you are referring to people agreeing to be paid less, then in the absence of a union, it's a logical strategy otherwise they'll find themselves unemployed completely. A union would be nice, but I don't understand how it could be achieved when there are so many young people eager to do whatever it takes to go flying.

Sorry for the downer, guys, but I just wanted to offer a bit of a reality-check.

R405, reality check? I take it that you aren't a pilot then, considering your answer. Please do some research before posting again.

Wiley, as I said in my post, TYWDNM was most assuredly the trigger. THOSE we also do not mention thought merely of themselves. The companies then denegrated the auspicous position of pilot to merely that of a contract worker - disposable labour.

I am NOT going to turn this into a 1989 argument, but if we cannot look at history and how it has shaped this industry, for better or for worse, then we are just sticking our heads in the sand and ignoring the awful truth.

As I mentioned, it is time SOMETHING UNITED was done to stem the rot endemic in the Australian airline industry.

If not, before too long, Hawke may just have his prophecy come true - we will be just glorified bus drivers.

And we all want to prove that mongrel wrong!

:p

I'm putting on the bullet proof vest as I type this. The spiraling of terms and conditions started the day Virgin and Impulse commenced operations in Australia. This was the catalyst for the ridiculously and unsustainable cheap fares introduced into the market, with each company trying its best to a) win market share; and b) destroy the opposition, the whole while consumers are "loving it!" taking advantage of the fares while they last.

All this was coupled with Pilots (Aussie's) keen to return to live in Australia and were prepared to take and accept changes to what was once Australian industry standard ie $230K for a B737 pilot (inclusive of overtime).

Read the QF or VB balance sheet and you will see that profit from cost cutting cannot be sustained without taking casualties - be it their own or the enemy, and cannot build a sustainable future.

Australia has seen the crash before of discounters and we will see it again.

What's the solution? I'm not sure, but have popped on my thinking cap to resolve a strategy.

R405,

I think you talk with tongue in cheek or else you really don't know what is involved in learning to fly.

The flight time required for the various licences and ratings does not reflect the time spent in preparation for those flights nor the time spent studying for and sitting all the exams.

Also the hours for the licences are minimum requirements. Nearly all first jobs in the aviation game are considered as part of the apprenticeship for an airline job. Most airline jobs require a much higher level of experience than just the bare licence requirements.

The lawyer might have 1500 hours of time at work, but 1500 hours in the courtroom?, I think not.

To gain 1500 hours of flight time would take at least 3 years for the average person probably more.

You are not giving enough credit to the efforts required to become an experienced pilot.

Rescue 1, I disagree in reference to your timeline, but otherwise agree to the greater extent.

I believe the degradation (some will call it rot) started the day the first contract was signed in 1989.

The arrival of the discount airlines did not exascerbate the situation, rather, it just continued with the trend, rather than altering it for better or for worse.

But, we are yet again digressing away from the initial topic - how do we stop the landslide?

Bus Driver??
 

I noted, with some alarm, an article on the weekend about developing DRIVERLESS people moving flying machines.

I wonder how long it will be before the bean counters trot out that one to drive down the professional standing of pilots and reduce conditions offered on EBA's??

The Salad Days are over.

...and I would suggest that globalisation has an awful lot to do with it. I think global commerce and industry is on the slippery slope to eventual implosion.

Public companies exposed to the global market need to do something to maintain/increase share price and dividends. This can only be achieved by becoming more efficient and/or increasing market share - and in the global market, market share is like the last chip on the beach amongst a thousand seagulls.

The typical CEO route is to increase efficiency, and in the case of an airline this would mean buying more efficient aircraft, increasing redundancies, or reducing pay and conditions. Any increases in market share are a bonus. Just to maintain market share in the face of widening competition is an achievement. Reducing pay and conditions in a unionised environment is difficult. The solution - spin off some different companies with reduced pay and conditions.

This is fine - but where does it end? Unfortunately, shareholders never stop baying for blood - it is the nature of the system. And employees are nothing but an inconvenience.

So the process of finding efficiencies can never end. As opposed to the good old days when businesses were privately owned, and the owners cared about human beings - the business made some money, and families had roofs over their heads.

I don't know "how" the current system will end - but logic dictates that it has to. It's just the "when" that remains to be seen.

What - O, its not a downward spiral. What investors chase is returns commensurate with risk and capital appreciation in line with global growth of GDP.

If the expected rate of return for airline investment is 3.5% and GDP growth is 3%, then if you achieve these numbers you are doing OK.

What appears to be happening to airlines is that we are still feeling the after affects of the invention of the low cost carrier. Until the dinosaurs reinvent themselves in this mode there will continue to be angst and tears.

MkVIII, yes, I am a pilot, and my research is based not only on the aviation industry but on other industries. Flying just isn't that hard compared to other professions. As you suggest I do some research on the aviation, I suggest you do some research on other professions. longjohn had some good stats in his original post, eg "A medical student will study for 7 years before graduation, they will then need to work in the hospital system for a number of years in order to gain experience. Starting salary, $70 - 80k after 7 years of study. Would you study 7 years to fly?"

27/09, thanks for your response. Unfortunately, I'm not speaking with tongue in cheek. I agree that there is a lot more to experience than engine time, which is why I doubled the amount. If we factor in studying and sitting for exams for pilots, we need to factor the same thing in for comparable professionals. Most of the lawyers I know have double-degrees which took them 5 years full-time - way more than any pilot I know has spent on education. I agree that the lawyer does not have 1,500 hours in court, but they will have 1,500 hours practising law, which comparable to flying experience.

As Sunfish says, the industry is changing and the dinosaurs are reinventing themselves. It's up to the individual whether or not they want to be a dinosaur. Personally, I think unionising will be difficult given the steady stream of eager young recruits, but even if it was done, it would simply strengthen the public perception of pilots being glorified bus drivers and corral the pilots for an airline counter-strategy, obviously off-shore.

Perception.....
 

It's all a matter of where you stand and look at all of this. If you look at a Pilots worth from a seasoned Pilots point of view, then yes we are all worth more. An experienced Pilot understands what it takes to make it into the Airlines and all of the training and BS that is encountered along the way. Generally speaking only a seasoned Pilot will understand any of this.....

If you look at the Profession of Pilot from the Accountant or Managers point of view things look a little different. 100's of applicants for each position(sometimes 1000's), only 12 months of training for a CPL/IR and no minimum education requirements to get into the course, just a fist full of cash!!!! (It took the Accountant a min of 3 years of Uni study then the CPA/CA study thereafter to get a decent job on 40k-50k: if they show some talent...). So it looks easy to them!!!!!

I think Pilots putting themselves into the same category as Lawyers and Doctors is silly.... It's just too different. It still costs around $33k-$35k (HECS) to do a Law Degree (4 years Full Time) and then postgraduate Legal training to get a Practicing Certificate (more $$$) and the starting pay is still crap.... and most lawyers will never make $100,000 a year. That is a Fact.

One clear difference between a Pilot and a Lawyer is the training. A student wanting to do a Law degree must fulfill academic requirements for entry and then be competitive enough to be accepted, then pass 30+ subjects just to be able to then study to practice.

Imagine if you could just turn up to a Law school and hand over the $$$ and 4 years later you got the degree whether you could do it or not..... just like the sausage factory flying schools.....

A Doctor is just too different for me as a Pilot to ever compare myself... A minimum of 6-7 years of University Study and at least a $50k HECS debt, an Intern year on around $50k, then at last a licence as a Medical Practitioner. But now you have to complete one more year as a House Officer or the like whilst applying to be accepted into a specialty training course that will last another 3-6 years..... and after all of this (12 years minimum)...... Finally a chance to make a decent income..... and just as with lawyers........ Not all Doctors make a fortune...... Only a select few.

A lawyer still has a responsibility to his/her client, the Doctor to the Patient,the Pilot to the passenger. If either make a mistake a persons life can be destroyed in an instant......

Yes we all have responsibility in our jobs, that is a fact for all Professionals. We as Pilots need to stop comparing ourselves to others who are nothing like us (in many ways!!!!) and concentrate on looking after ourselves as a profession to ensure we are remunerated accordingly for the job we do. If we try to be looked at as equals to Lawyers and Doctors we will get shot down because the general public don't have a clue what we really do or have done (Haven't we all been asked if we want to be a commercial Pilot one day after pulling up somewhere on a charter!!!!!). Doctors don't Piss and Moan on a Rumour network..... They have a Bloody strong Union and they respect each other professionally and try to make things better for all Doctors, not just a selfish few.... Sure they all want to make more money than the next Bloke.... but they know the united front of bargaining is far more powerful and secure for the profession than snaking and undercutting.....

Maybe Pilots could learn a thing or two from them.... instead of just comparing themselves to them......

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

That's a debatable issue, R405. The act of flying an aeroplane isn't particularly difficult for most people, but not all.
And just as there are certain "tiers" in the other professions, eg. law - articled clerk, lawyer, barrister, QC, Judge - or medicine, nurse, intern, G.P., specialist, Mister - there are similarly various "tiers" in the profession of flying.
As a matter of fact, there would probably be MORE tiers in aviation than in perhaps ANY other profession (that I can think of).

And so as easy as it is for a PPL with an instrument rating to consider himself just a short flight removed from the professional, multi-crew, multi-engine pilot, the REALITY is quite different, as is the vast difference in knowledge and areas of responsibility between the two.
The requirements of flying are not ONLY of a manipulative nature, but also an ability to make vital decisions quickly in what may be rapidly changing conditions and to accept the responsibilty for those decisions.

If flying were not considered to be a challenging occupation - but rather, a more passive one, such as those listed earlier, where the time to make a decision is often NOT critical and may be pondered by hours, days, or even months before arriving at a final one (which may be further challenged!!) - then pilots would not be subjected to the regular, ongoing, rigorous checks of ability and suitability to retain their jobs.

As in any profession, EXPERIENCE counts, however this seems not to be recognised by some aviation employers - and some pilots.

How many QC's would agree to work for a customer at articled clerks rates?
What would be the reply of an Orthodontist if you asked him to agree to work for the same money as his dental nurse? ":mad: you!!"?

More to the point, what would be Geoff Dixon's respose if you asked HIM to continue, but on an accountant's salary?

The problem today is, it is not PILOTS who are setting the remuneration levels and sticking to them - we are allowing OUTSIDE forces to do that.
Again 1989 (I'll say it), showed that there are pilots who think so little of their peers - and of themselves - that they will undercut/sabotage the mainstream to try to gain an advantage.
How many of you would choose a "cut price" Doctor without wondering WHY he was forced to undercut his peers?

Now we've all had a good whinge, bitch, vent, I-told-you-so over two fairly predictble page by the usual suspects, what exactly were the concessions NJS pilots offered to make?

edited coz some bugger already said it.


:p

Show me a Union where every member has balls and you have a Union with BALLS !

R405. My friend, Kapt M, has succinctly hit the nail on the head. Which fortunately has saved me the pleasure of giving it a serious WHACK!:mad:

Fella, there is no real comparison that can be made between each of the professions that you use to illustrate your points.

I have two degrees, am studying for my third, and I can tell you straight up that there is very little harder than a single engine NDB and circling approach with compound emergencies in crap weather with a senior check peering over your shoulder.

Doctors may have similar "pressure" situations, but most other professions have no comparison at all.

R405, your ignorance of this indicates your probable lack of experience and qualifications in flying. That is no worries, everyone starts somewhere and follows their own road. But when you begin to tell highly qualified professional pilots that their job is "easy", well, you must forgive us for just a little indignance.

Have a good day!:ok:

God damn it Whiskery, OK, a union with balls and boobs. (hang on, every union is full of boobs....:p )

Schnauzer said exactly what I was going to, so no further requirements. Resuming own navigation....

Comparing a professional pilot to a doctor or a lawyer is like comparing apples to concrete - not even REMOTELY SIMILAR!

Unless you ARE an airline pilot, chances are you truly do NOT understand. Those that aren't like to try to equate it to other professions, yet nothing even remotely comes close.

Explaining it is futile unless you have done it.

If you really believe that, how are you planning to make a case for better remuneration?

Animalclub...
Absolutely none of the above.

One gets paid what one can negotiate.

If you're not in a good position to negotiate, don't expect to get much. If you're in a good position, you can negotiate a bucket load. Knowing one's position comes easy to some and difficult to others.

Cheers

Lawyers lock up their mistakes.

Doctors bury their mistakes.

I undergo some kind of test every 6 weeks.

Everything I say and do at work is recorded.

A GP friend of mine has to do 1 course per year to stay in the College. He did a CPR refresher last year.

Lowdon & AnimalClub

Surely the employer pays only what is necessary to attract and retain the employees it needs.

As always it seems that the supply exceeds the demand - so a pilot's years of training, years of experience, years of being constantly checked carry little weight in the employer's mind when setting pay levels.

Factors that do carry weight are the costs associated with induction of new employees, re-training and maintaining the published schedules and productivity.

Who can argue with an employer who is having to sell for $39 a product which he sold ten years ago for over $250? A $750 Million profit is nice figure - but what is the % return on capital invested?

I think we'll see Airlines paying just enough to retain the Pilots they already have for quite some time in the future. I'd be looking for job security.

Times is tough!
Cheers
Bulolobob

Having read the various posts debating the apparent easiness vs difficulty of being a pilot when compared to other industry professionals, may I offer the following for us to ponder...

Why do I think pilots should get paid more?

Because when things go bad in the courtroom, the plaintiff or the defendant will suffer much more than the lawyer. The worst-case scenario for the lawyer is that he gets disbarred and cannot practise law. But he still gets to go home and reflect on it.

Because when things go bad in the operating theater, the patient suffers much more than the surgeon. The worst-case scenario for the surgeon is that he gets done for malpractice, and can no longer practise medicine. But he still gets to go home and reflect on it.

Because when things go bad in the cockpit, the lives of the two pilots, nine cabin crew, and the one-hundred and seventy or so passengers ALL hang in the balance. And unfortunately in some cases, no-one gets to go home because the bodies cannot be identified in the wreckage.

Whilst I would never wish this to happen to anyone, I sometimes imagine a scenerio where a planeload of senior airline execs and their beancounters suffer a catastrophic event in flight. It is their lives who are now completely and utterly in the hands of the "cheap labour" up front. And I wonder if, as those frightened execs/beancounters contemplate whether they'll get home to their familes that night, will any of them spare a thought to ask themselves if those two guys are getting paid enough right now?

I would hope that when things go bad in the cockpit things aren't hanging in the balance. Training, currency, SOPs and safety management are all mechanisms to ensure that this isn't the case are they not?

Obviously the argument of being 'life and death' decision-makers is not washing it with the public and employers at large. There is a general perception that flying is among the safer forms of travel and yet passengers seem not to be aware they are perilously close to the precipice according the description above.

Although I don't agree with flying/medical/legal professional comparisons anyway, I think that the idea that a surgeon is somehow absolved of the burden of responsibility that pilots must bear because is fatuous. A surgeon has to live with his mistakes, a lot of pilots do not. Which is harder?

Considering the number of medico's who fly privately themselves, I suspect surgery is closer to being a pilot than many of you think.

Both professions require regular decisions that must be made that cannot and must not be postponed for more than a few seconds.

The rest of us get to scratch our backsides and say "Jeez, I'll have to think about that one for a few minutes", even lawyers.

Frankly, thats the bit about flying that makes it different from anything I have ever done before.

Hmmm, this is a interesting thread. I don't normally post but this one...I can see it from a different perspective in that I am a maritime professional with a flying problem.
My industry has been thru a similar stage (although about three hundred years longer) where times were tough, markets were down and employers treated crews like cr@p.
A lot of folks here mentioned how a union could help, others went on to point out how that would never come to pass. I'm here to tell you that it can be done, in fact it has been done. Ever heard of the ITF? If not, take a peak at www.itf.org.uk
You might be surprised to learn that they do represent civil aviation, in fact I think they have some big case on now on behalf of Ryanair workers. I guess its a case of getting a local union together to work as an affilate. You then have GLOBAL leverage.

However, the ITF alone did not make things better for us. This may sound terrible but it was a number of nasty accidents (remember Exxon Valdez? The Erika? The Treasure?) that forced governments, regulatory authorities, insurers, banks, not to mention environmental bodies to act and shipowners were pressured into maintaning top quality sea personel which takes good conditions and dineros. We are under a huge amount of pressure for our actions these days (some of which is fair enough) for eg, there are lots of places where we get locked up for spilling just a tiny amount of fuel or residue etc (I'm talking litres) even if its a mechanical failure beyond our control. A serious case of guilty until proven innocent.
The reason I bring this up is that you folks are under the same sort of pressure albeit in different ways and in my opinion should be rewarded for it. The ITF argued on behalf of seafarers that if the world wanted us poor sods to spend 9 months at sea and be held responsible for everything under the sun to the point where we are jailed for it, then they could sure as hell pay us for it. You're in the same boat (excuse the pun, couldn't resist) and I agree that you need blanket representation.

On the other hand, I do think the aviation industry has some issues to work out within itself first. Forgive this from an outsider looking in but I always get the feeling that you folks are really cut throat and independant of one another in the way you do things. Perhaps circumstances dictate this but we in the maritime biz are so much closer together and supportive of our "brothers in arms". I think this may be half your problem.

Re comments re comparison of proffesions, In my opinion both the aviation and maritime industries have unique characteristics in this regard and can't be compared to others. You have the pressures of passengers, most of us have the pressures of the potential magnitude and consequantial effects of our accidents. To make master (captain) on a medium sized dry cargo vessel (panamax) will take you on average about 15-20 years at sea. You need similar qualities as an airline captain. I think anrguments comparing this and the aviation industry to lawyers, accountants or any other 'warm and fuzzy' occupation are a waste of time.

Of course, all just my opinion.

AD

Thank you ash_d this gets a sticky for common sense and perspective.:ok:

A brilliant, insightful post! Thanks Ash!

Captains of the sea, and Captains of the air... brothers.

There is Hope For You Lot Yet....
 

I saw this post from Mr. Ignition Override" on the "Rumors and News" thread "the demise of the Professional Pilot"

I thought it might be germane to some of your discussions...

Ignition Override
Over 500 posts.

US hub-and-spoke airlines, requiring passengers and crews (sometimes hanging around over two hours) to change planes most of the time, were NEVER designed for high employee productivity. High business fares were apparently the foundation for these wasteful operations. After a 10 or 12-hour duty day with short, intense legs flown requiring three or even four rushed changes of aircraft, we feel very productive and tired, but sometimes have logged only about 6 hours of 'block time'. Frustrating, even IF we had more than five hours of sleep in a hotel.

But upper management wants the public to believe that it is the unions' fault that these inefficient operations were created and are, after decades, the heart and soul of daily business, except at Southwest Airlines.

Southwest's 737 pilots are the highest-paid 737 aviators in the US! Southwest has been HEAVILY UNIONIZED for MANY YEARS.

Don't think so? Just check the history over there.... Higher employee costs have not prevented Southwest's brilliant success. They seem to have almost no hub-and-spoke operations. Productivity and high staff/employee morale seem to be the key elements, concepts which are totally lost on typically indifferent, ungifted airline managements in the US. Some airlines attempt to create the superficial facade of a caring management. Who are they really fooling? Most of these so-called "leaders" have no true background in actual airline operations, and little interest in real aviation, as Howard Hughes, Bob Six, Juan Trippe (?) and Eddie Rickenbacker had long ago. At least Continental Airlines has a leader (Bethune) who earned his pilot ratings and has ferried B-757s from the factory. And American Trans Air was created by a pilot, Mr. Mickelson. Even a beginning as a ramp worker or gate agent (at UPS most have worked their way up from loading packages) would create more insight than what most of today's airline CEOs will ever acquire.