Three Bars

I think you're correct regarding AN and TN, but weren't they paying similar wages and granting similar conditions?

I was thinking along the lines that it could be difficult (I didn't say impossible) if one union represented say Virgin AND QF shorthaul pilots...(hey, they may do now, for all I know) arguing for differing wages/conditions when pilots fly similar equipment.

On the other hand is that what pilots want?

Rescue 1,

You said it. It should not be only about the money. Too much emphasis on it these days.

pilots salaries
 

Back in the days when ships were wood and men were steel,
Air Traffic Controllers had their pay based on the salary of the FO of a DC9.

So, my question is...do FO's now get about 120K per year? And if they do, what do the captains now get?

Similarly, do you think that ATC's are overpaid?

In my opinion this long, slow race to the bottom will shortly be replaced by a very sharp, quick sprint to the top.

The industry is changing rapidly and as employers exploit pilots, we as a group become downcast as real wages initially decline and paying for endorsements becomes standard. This has two effects - first, it makes airlines more efficient, and second, it makes the industry less attractive to prospective pilots.

More efficient industries mean more growth. No industry was more in need of change than the airline industry, and the efficiencies being created are leading to massive worldwide growth. Essentially this means more aircraft, and obviously more pilots. This growth will be more resistant to cyclic downturns for the simple reason that it is more flexible and more efficient.

At the same time management screw pilots in the short term because there is still fat out there from the historically inefficient legacy carriers, but this can only last for so long. With less pilots coming in (and why would you start now), there will be a MASSIVE shortfall of pilots within 5 years.

A common theme amongst the new players is they have plans for very fast growth, which means they require experienced operators, and the supply is becoming quite thin on the ground.
If you don't believe me look around you. China, Japan, and Singapore are desperate for expat pilots and will be so for at least the next decade - it takes a long time for a cadet to reach Captain. In India there have been several press reports in the past couple of weeks highlighting the dire plight of the newly deregulated industry's growth prospects due to the lack of experienced pilots, and all carriers including the state owned dinosaurs have indicated a requirement for foreigners. A320 pilots in Singapore have just had a significant pay rise. Virgin Blue have instituted a significant rise in the form of their "retention allowance", so disguised so the rest of the company don't object to percentage increases greater than the standard 3%. Jetconnect have lost 10 percent of their pilot body in the last 3 months, and this despite a significant base payrise, a retention allowance, and the inclusion of overtime over 65 hours. There is no jet experience left in NZ and all their new FO's have no jet time and can't take commands for at least a couple of years. Its not as if they can call upon the airforce any more! They are now looking at direct entry captains, but who knows where they'll come from? The net 737 FO package, even if you make adjustments for currency and super, is only about 10K less than I get as a 767 FO in Australia (Ive don the sums, don't make me print them). The major factor in this is the lower tax rates.

So I say to the NJS guys, you only have to cop the crap if you are adamant you want to stay where you are. Settled with a wife, kids in school etc, all valid reasons. But if not, don't cop it. Don't bother paying for a dead end 717 endorsement. You may as well spend the same money on a 737 or A320 qualification and get a job with ongoing employment prospects. Look around you and see whats on offer. The structure and conditions are different to old style carriers, but the money is really not so bad if you're prepared to work. You can then screw the same shortsighted management types that are now screwing you on the basis they think pilots are a dime a dozen. That may be true on the surface, but EXPERIENCED pilots are nowhere to be found. Take charge of your own destiny. There is so much more out there.

FT

Who the hell said that????

If that's true, why do so many doctors make absolutely TRAGIC private pilots??

Eventually conditions will reach the point where guys would rather crop-dust, for a little less. Then they can palm off airline-flying to the train-drivers' union and morons like the above-quoted will finally be happy.


Sorry to hear you didn't make it in aviation, R405

I know plenty of doctors that do a great job of flying an aeroplane too, it's just that the thinking processes are completely different. If they get the right guidance as students and are kept humble, there's not a problem with the outcome, much like celebrities.

Flying Tiger

Your solutions do appear somewhat flawed. You insist that an individual already employed and settled shouldn't pay for an endorsement, then insist he go out and buy another one?!

I say that you should all stop paying for bloody jobs-period!

Three Bars; Re your post above which referred to the earlier thread you started; Sorry if my reply in that thread gave you the impression that I considered you too idealistic. My intent was far from that! I do hold the opinion that some pilots are too selfish for their own good, however I do hope that eventually the profession as a whole will wake up before it's too late and preferably unite under one banner.
The various managements of various airlines must be rubbing their hands together with glee at the fragmentation and infighting that is going on currently within the pilot fraternity, for they realise the truth in the old saying that disunity is death.
The big question is, do we?

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

I'm in agreement with Flying Tiger on most of his points.
Management have been very short-sighted, and overly aggressive during the past decade or so, and the chickens are now coming home to roost - to the detriment of those managers.

In those companies where the pilots have been "abused", there is no longer the company "spirit" that existed in many airlines, prior to these attacks on our conditions.
It was almost as if pilots were being PUNISHED for being pilots, and for the inefficiency of the schedulers who roster us.
Items that cost the company absolutely ZERO - such as upgradeable travel on space available - were taken away, along with the salary and allowance reductions.
Company loyalty has been beaten out of us, together with most other staff members.
"Loyalty" now goes to the highest bidder!
Staff have become a commodity now, whereas before they were an ASSET.

SAFETY is just a buzz word with modern management - a word that they believe they can throw around on the odd occasion to keep the regulators happy, whilst preparing schedules that do not take into account start/finish times.
These rosters would probably work okay for the 9-5'ers doing the rostering - people who have a regular sleep pattern, sleeping in the same familiar surrounds each night - and working at normal O2 levels, getting up and leaving their desk to make a trip to the toilet, or to grab a cup of water/tea/coffee, when they want to.
NONE of these factors leading to crew fatigue are a consideration in crew scheduling.
And so, along with the obvious cost cutting, I believe SAFETY has also been reduced under this New Age management.

Pilots have had a lot taken away from them - there is a lot to regain, before we get back to where we were a decade ago.
It's now a case of whichever company is willing to offer the BEST package that will determine how well those companies are able to meet their future growth requirements to make bigger profits, through aircraft crewing requirements, whilst the others downsize, or disappear completely!

Imo, the pilot workforce has never been as "mobile" as it is today - many pilots are now willing to move from one country to another, for enhanced employment opportunities.

I have a sneaking suspicion that QF's profits aree coming from winding back "provisions" ie provisions for annual leave, sick leave, long service leave and so on.

Your senior cabin staff are being forced to take leave because the provision has to increased every time they get a pay rise. The less leave "overhang", the less the increase in the provision.

Of course if pilots and others resign in frustration and are replaced with people on "new" (lesser) awards then the provisions can be reduced yet again. The reduction of course goes straight to the bottom line as profit.

Translation : They don't want you. You cost too much.

I'd check the super funds as well. They are frequently used as a hollow log.

Burn, baby, burn..
 

I would say that it is time to get fifth column. NOW! The whole industry in Oz is going right down the toilet unless you people stop wring your limp-wristed little hands and GO ON STRIKE!

For the National jet boys: Do not fork over any money for you B717 training. The company is now committed to service the contract. Use this to your advantage to screw the bastards over. Get some GOOD advice on the tort position so as you aren't liable. I would say that there is NO requirement in the Workplace Relations Act that says that you have to pay for your training. To do so is unreasonable and you will almost certainly be able to argue the point! Take them on in court and SET A F#&ING PRECEDENT!!! Even AIPA could join forces or provide assistance as it is just a matter of time before it will be a requirement the the pilot pays for upgrade training at QF!

Or do nothing and get screwed. Up to you, really. Good luck.

FYI....
 

News online
First step to victory for Ryanair pilots

3 February 2005

Irish pilots employed by low-cost anti-union airline Ryanair have won the first part of a court battle with the airline, securing a guaranteed investigation into their complaints against the company.

Ryanair pilots, supported by the Irish Airline Pilots Union (IALPA) - part of the Irish Municipal, Public and Civil Trade Union (IMPACT)- were complaining about victimisation after the company employed bullying tactics against them. These included being forced to pay 15,000 euros for training to fly new aircraft; if they refused, they faced the sack.

The Irish labour court, unconvinced that Ryanair’s employee representative committees constituted independent bargaining forums, highlighted “the need for new measures to afford additional support to employees where there are no arrangements for independent negotiation on pay and conditions.”

The court’s ruling on 25 January means that the IALPA/IMPACT claim that Ryanair pilots should be given a copy of their terms and conditions of employment may be given a hearing. The complaint regarding victimisation in the workplace may also now be heard by an Irish Rights’ Commissioner.

Ingo Marowsky, ITF Civil Aviation Secretary commented, “In its support for its IALPA division, IMPACT strives to provide employees in Ryanair with a collective voice as well as give them their pride back. This is a breakthrough for the Irish pilots, and we have congratulated the union wholeheartedly on behalf of our affiliates.”

Unfortunately ladies and gentlemen, we suffer one major disadvantage compared to all other professions - we love what we do. All we desire is to fly. This presents quite a disadvantage when we want to negotiate a remuneration package.
Monkeys can fly but only aviators take it as a profession.
In reality most of us would do it for free, but we want to be paid a good wage. It's not easy to see the solution.
We ahve to risk what we love to get what we want.

test test test test

Strike
 

:yuk:

Ever heard the saying don't bite the hand that feeds you? Well, no-one will ever get me to strike and I don't care what you label me. Striking is selfish.

It's not like you're a POW asking to get at least one meal a day.
If you don't like the pay / conditions, go to your boss and ask for more money . YOU ASK. If he says no, you can quit. simple.

:yuk:unions.

Ralph,

Don't give up your day job to become an IR advocate.

NJS is "preferred tenderer subject to satisfactory negotiation of the operating agreement".

I can imagne how satisfactorally the negotiations will go if NJS goes back to Qantas and says, forget about our bid here's a new one! :oh:

Smash the corporate state now.
 

Pass-a frozo..

Don't worry, I am going to heap invective upon you. You seem a little too delicate.

"Striking is selfish" Wow. What a good little boyscout you are. I bet the boss and the shareholders just LoVe you:p .

Ever heard the saying "If you cannot bite the arse that sh!ts on you, then kiss it"? 'Seems more applicable in this case.

I can just see you asking for a rise (cap in hand) the boss saying "NO!!" then you appologising and asking if he asking if he would like you to get him a cup of tea or something.. (Oh .. um ..sorry...um can I get you a cuppa..'mate'..haha...would you like to me to bend over and assume the position again, boss?:= )

If you think that the only options after being knocked back for a pay rise are either staying or quitting then you have VERY limited powers of intellect.

Clarrie, I can under stand your problem now if the contract has not been signed, You beef is with your employer who has said basically "sign or else". Well, are you going to be stood over all of your life? (Just thought of that line from the movie 'Mad Max': "Any...thing... you say.. what a great philosopy of life") What they have presented the pilot body at NJS is amoral.

What is being put to you is that

you are now required to subsidize their business. They are telling you that you must dig into your personal wealth to pay for the business to operate. If this is going to happen, then at least require that you become a shareholder with all commensurate rights. You have them by the balls by the sound of things. If they lose the QF contract, they go broke. Its a booming market for pilots out there, mate. You'll get another job.

Remember the building indusrty tactic of the concrete pour: wait under the pour is half way through, then down tools. So, you should give consideration to waiting until the contract has been signed and then put the screws into NJS. They will then be under pressure to provide the service to QF. Like I said GET LEGAL ADVICE AND GET HELP FROM OTHER STAKEHOLDERS. Good luck.

Ralph,

You speak of things you don't know.

At no time has the company said "sign or else", either to me or to my knowlege, to any one.

It was a competitive tender. The tender was based on agreed conditions. Had the tendered bottom line been higher than it was then perhaps instead of continued employment, many of us would be looking at a bleak future.

Perhaps not.

We'll probably never really know the full details.

Today's pigs are tomorrows' bacon.
 

Clarrie,

I know that NJS has said to you that they have sought to tender at the lowest price. As part of the low price, the cost of training on the B717 has been passed onto you. They have either said or implied that you continued employment is contingent upon the pilot group asceeding to this request/demand. This sounds like an 'Or Else...' to me.

Ralph,

You're right. There is another option. You could found an economic system where people are paid what their skill set is worth, and pay levels are set by a central body. Oh, that's right ... there is one already.. it's called Communism. Shame the USSR collapsed, you could be booking you're airfare to the Union right now.. :rolleyes:

Unions have a dead weight loss on the economy. If you want to argue they result in positive outcomes, read up on Monopsonies (in relation to the demand for labour). I may agree with you in that circumstance.

As for your comments of the "shareholders" or "boss's" loving me, well you're probably right. Got a problem with that? Become a shareholder, go to the QANTAS annual general meeting and argue that the company should try to increase the cost base.

Anyway, keep trying to push costs up by demanding you get paid more than you're worth to the company - I'm sure you'll be the first one in tears on the news when you've lost you're job because the company moves jobs offshore or goes out of business because it can't compete. I'm off to make the boss a coffee :ok:

Bottom-bounce
 

Some of you guys really have missed the point here. We are at the bottom and from here on in it is about how low the water level can go.

Any form of endorsement training is employment related, otherwise why would you go through the drama of a command type rating on a transport category aircraft, for fun! So the employer requires that skill not the industry just that employer, that makes it their operating cost, not yours or mine. Once an industry standard there is no going back, so the offload of that cost to you the employee is complete, when and how it works through mainline QF is anybodies guess, but it will, QF is the standout now not the rest.

This is all not such a bad thing, if you fund the qualification, you own the skill, so its transferrable to other markets like overseas operators. The cost is an allowable outlay to earn income until the ATO says otherwise, so you reduce your tax and offset the cost. The issue is equity and access. If I come from a background where access to capital for education is not a reality, I have to generate surplus from my income, so it takes longer and may if you make other choices along the way, be impossible. That is inequitable.

EBAs and WPGs are here to stay, industry standards will provide a commencing platform for conditions but thats all, after all Cathay drivers are not working for a bowl of rice a day are they? Believe it or not there is a raft of quite established contract law which supports your interests vis a vis the employer as well. If your communal in orientation then the issue is how to fund the collective in using the Courts. Frankly, my interests are very much tied to the success or otherwise of my employer(s) so while I find the industry wide issues interesting, like every other driver I will look after my personal interest first and I am only interested in my company succeeding and surviving, not yours, are you going to be responsible if not? No of course not.

The Ryan Air case while illuminating is not binding on any Australian Court. If you think a return to the days of imposed costs via the IRC and awards, then you have paid no attention to where IR has gone and is going in Oz at the moment.

The issue is also one of choice, if you pay now for your further training you can actually perhaps make a better choice about what qualifications you would really spend money on. I found a HECS supported vocational course and that is the choice I have made in the face of paying for additional or more in aviation. Putting out more cash for a piloting ticket is a bad investment in myself. In the face of my departure in several years my employers will realise it may have been cheaper to fund the training investment themselves, but then I won't care.

Simple HuH!

Rah rah rah, sorry if I repeat something in the seven pages I didn't read, but all I can see is that wage bargaining is a game, like winning a court case, and big companies (eg Q), are very good at it. They have an ongoing process involving softening the employees up with beautifully written and produced (with colour photos) literature. This stuff is basically propoganda about how the shareholders need bigger profits, and even though "the company" is making a massive profit already, it is not enough. If employees want to avoid the possibility of the company folding and everyone losing out, then they'd better toe the line and accept offsets for any wage increases they may get. (an offset means: if you get a pay rise, even in accordance with inflation, then you must give up something to get it). Every offset is a devaluation of the worth of every pilot, and the big companies are very good at training us to be ready to accept it. This is understandable, they are doing their job, and any executive will get a bigger salary and payout if they can screw the workers as much as possible (if the workers actually like it all the better). I have no answer, except to see what is going on and start to question it. At least by talking about what is going on, it makes it harder for them to pull the wool over our eyes, and they 'may have to work a bit harder to turn us into slaves.

:O

When will we have hit rock bottom?

When 1 single union tells their employer that I'm sorry but your offer is not good eneough and we are going to engage in protected industrial action in accordance with IRC rules until you can offer something that is acceptable to us.

QF LAMES are currently in EBA negotiations and of course they have stalled because QF won't offer anything beside the standard 3% as long as we sell our soul again.

Well I get the feeling that we might just be pissed off as a union eneough to tell them to get stuffed!! All you cabin crew and tech crew can help by calling for a LAME whenever you need help or would like us to check something you're not sure about.

There just aren't eneough of us to go around and it might result in delays(which is an anathema to us all) but they simply won't listen otherwise!!!!!!

I'm sure it will be easier for pilots, flight attendants and everyone else to argue for a 5-6 % pay increase if the LAMES got one(in line with the rest of the country).

So if we do engage in protected industrial action in coming weeks help us and help yourselves by calling for a LAME if in doubt about something. Remember-the company motto is "BE SAFE"

You never know it could signify the bottom for all of us!!!!!!

Afraid to say the horse bolted years ago folks. All anyone can do these days is make as much as you can as fast as you can, and if somebody offers you somthing better, take it with both hands!

Food for thought. Found this article in a recent edition of the Financial Review.


Netballers join union

The Australian Netball Players Association has signed a deal with the Australian Workers Union. The alliance is aimed at improving the income and health and safety conditions of elite players.

If a group of netballers can get their act together why can't the Australian Pilot body?

In the past I personally have had resrvations about unions especially after what happened in the 70's. Many of the Unions of the day brought many companies to their knees. (My father's included.) This left a bad taste in my mouth for a long time.

However, as I have sat back and watched this industry sink like the Titanic I strongly feel if we want to salvage anything from this industry we must unite. I strongly believe there is no other way.

In a previous life I was an accountant and we had dozens of guys on our books who were working in underground mines operating equipment worth millions of dollars. Many of the guys ( and girls) were licenced to operate 5 or six machines.

NONE of these people paid for their licences/endorsements.

Pass-A-Frozo Can i employ you? :D i would love a coffee every hour! oh, and you will be working a 55 hr week! annual leave, hmmmmmm no. sick leave, only if you die! superannuation? HA!
but ill pay you $1200 a week after taxes and you will pay for your HR and HC licences,and medicals and forkies ticket, but if you want to earn $1300 a week, you will need a dangerous good ticket, that will cost you about $2000. and while your out there on the road, you will pay for the fuel you use, i will reimbuse you the GST component.

does this sound fair to you?

Unions have their place. otherwise you would be seriously considering my offer above.



A communist state! its called NSW, why should i pay land tax and vendor tax to help a first home owner? oh, and if i walk to a sporting event, i will pay tax to cover those going by train.


great windup!

:ok:

Pass-A-Frozo

You must have the utimate employee if you don't see any value in Unions, and good luck to you if that is the case.

As far as I am concerned my Union Membership Card is as an essential item in my flight bags as my approach plates, torch etc.

Perhaps you are confusing general union membership with the more militant such as those from the past, ie: BLF SP&D and the Waterfront Workers.

Maybe Ultralights is correct, a windup.

Ultralights:

1> No I won't work for those conditions. I just wouldn't accept your job.
2> However also, I won't join a union, accept your conditions and then complain like a 12 year old girl who lost her barbie doll. I reckon union members are nothing but a pack of whingers. Take what you're worth. I think most of us are overpaid anyway.

Unions no value: It's true. It is economic fact. Unions cost the economy money . They cost jobs, and force companies to pay people more than they are worth. You only like unions because you are selfish and wish to be paid more than the economy says you are worth. People like you complain about the state of the aviation industry in Australia. You want hundreds of jobs, and them all to pay well. Welcome to life, it doesn't work that way.

If you don't like the pay and conditions, put up with it or change jobs. It's called supply and demand. :ok:

You want to see what people think of pilots and the pilots union take a trip up to Kalbarri. Where pilots going on strike put a seafood company out of business and left hundreds of families broke. :yuk:

You're not living in a Nazi death camp. Don't like the pay, QUIT.

I'm not stopping you joining a union. But, don't complain because people like me won't join with you, and refuse to strike.

In my present Company we have a doctor, several lawyers, several Masters (MSc, MEc, MAppFin etc not bullsh1t MBA's - though there's a few of them in the management...), lot's of Bachelor degrees and so on and so forth. They are all pilots.

Should they be paid for the multiples of years spent training for all their qualifications and to recognise all their intelligence - or should they just be paid for being pilots?

I'm sure they all think it's only fair to receive pilot wages. But their existence does highlight the nonsense of claiming that 'pilots', as a class of humans, couldn't do those sort of jobs.

As a general point - I think comparisons between occupations are unwelcome and unhelpful. Each occupation is a unique blend of attributes and occupies it's own place in the greater labour market. Benchmarking is bullsh1t.

What we need is a tightening of the labour market in our particular area.

What sort of twisted logic is that?

How about.. don't like the pay, collectively and responsibly bargain for a better deal, preferably for a win-win situation with your employer, thereby enhancing both your bottom lines.

Pass-a-frozo.. let me guess... Air force?.. Military of some type. Been there... swallowed the propaganda... then saw the real world.:*

The_Cutest_of_Borg

You are exactly correct about the responsible collective bargaining with the employer. Unfortunately, most Airlines these days don't want to be responsible to their employees, only the shareholders (or oil-wealthy owners), and hence executive management.

However, grouping ex-military pilots in the same lot as Pass-a-Frozo, only serves to divide the pilot community further, and hence assist the overall outdated, but regularly used, management plan of 'divide and conquer'. Most of the ex-military pilots I know agree with responsible bargaining. Maybe Pass-a-Frozo just has his own 'unique' :hmm: set of values.

The_Cutest_of_Borg

I'm curious as to how an employer providing a better deal for you will enhance their bottom line? Simple logic dictates that if you are paid more, your employer needs to find additional sources of income, reduce costs elsewhere or accept reduced profits. Unfortunately, Australian industry isn't run as a communist collective so I guess that rules out reduced profits.

Hmmm, here's a good idea: let's cut costs in other areas such as maintenance by sending work off shore... nup, your fellow pro-union collaborators have made their views on this very clear in this forum.

So that just leaves us with finding addional sources of income: let's charge the punters more! This approach will be crucial in ensuring that SAL doesn't gain a foothold in the Australian market and challenge your on-going employment.

As PAF the crazy military capitalist has stated:

Aviation is a high risk industry, right across the board, you would have known that when you started and made a large capital outlay to get a foothold. QF pilots don't have a bad lot in life, and it is certainly commensurate with the expenses you incurred entering the industry. Spoken to anybody in one of the industries that you would consider yourself a peer with about their HECS and professional accrediation costs lately?

In short, what other industry that purports to be in the upper echelons of responsible and important employment within this country still operates as unionised labour? Bus drivers perhaps?

But I digress, seriously though if you wish to make some more coin beyond what the marketplace determines you to be worth, look at how the economic systems work in this country and buy shares in your company. Surely the quality of your efforts will generate profits and you too can share in it.

Cutest of the Borg:

I find it quite amusing that someone with Borg in their name would argue for "collective" bargaining :E

What kind of twisted logic is "If you don't like the pay and conditions associated with a job, quit". Well it's a quaint little economic system called Capitalism.

How dare someone ask you to be qualified to do a job. (e.g. Have paid for your own endorsement).. :rolleyes:

You all seem to imagine that you are battling the Kerry Packer types and trying to get your money from him. I've got news for you, the shareholders are mums and dads. Don't believe me, why then is QANTAS included in the Commonwealth Securities' Mums and Dads index? So next time you are claiming that you don't get paid enough, and "stick together" to gouge another payrise that's whose pocket it is coming from.

While you are making quite an assumption to call me ex-military, I'm curious as to what "propaganda" you think the military espouses?

The kids are out of the mines people, put the union to bed and stand up for yourself - don't expect others to do it for you. A bit of rugged individualism wouldn't go astray. No-one "forced" you to go into aviation, no one "forced" you to work for a particular company. Don't like it -- you can quit. Or you can continue to try and screw the Australian public; your choice.

Unions reduce the number of jobs available in an industry. It is an economic fact. So how about next time you're pushing for a big pay rise you take a trip down the local aero club and explain to the kids down there why you're making it harder for them to get a job in Aviation.... or don't you care because you've 'made it'?

A point of order - Point0Five - aviation is not classified as a high risk industry.

It is classified as a "High threat but low risk industry". Along with nuclear reactors and oil tankers.


That is - it doesn't go wrong often, but when it goes wrong, it goes wrong in a big way.

lets see, Im an Employer, I employ 4 full time drivers, ALL are members of the TWU! i was a Unuion delegate at QF.

I pay my drivers well, my drivers are happy, and willing to go the extra mile for me when i ask of them. my customers are happy because my public face to them (my drivers) are happy! sure i could pay them 30% less, my bottom $$ will look good! but my employees will do less for me when asked, they might become unhappy, and that will be felt by my customers, (who by the way entrust me with an average of $3 MILLION worth of their stock PER DAY! not including master cd, and all associated pre release recordings) so i need drivers i can trust, and keeping them happy is the only way we can earn each otehrs trust, not only that i will have a higher turnover of drivers.

lets see the benefits of Overpaying my employees!, customers are happy, my drivers will go the extra mile without question, to get an urgent or important job done, i get a good rep, customers decide to give me more work (with a company and drivers THEY can trust) more work = more income! trust me, its a fantastic feeling being asked to take over a contract form a very large competitor!

not only that i get the satisfaction of running a sucessfull and Reputable business, that will have a secure income for all involved for the Long term!

I have kept all my drivers for 3 yrs! almost a record in the trucking game. why would they leave?


the reason the aviation industry is the way it is, is simply because Air fares at Train ticket prices is NOT sustainable! corrigan can see that! airlines can see that, but they must cut cost to stay alive! and they do that the only way they know how!


So Mr passed- a- frodo you need a reality check when it comes to Employee- employer relations! as it seams to me you dont understand any side of the argument.

as for screwing the australian public, how about the australian public screwing the industry for wanting to fly from SYD to PERTH for $4.50

a quick question MR passed-a-frodo, (i know it wont be answered truthfully) but how long will you work, at the job you have loved since day dot, in an industry you love, without a pay rise???


sure, i am earning 4 times what i earnt at QF, but i sit in an office, and in a truck and cart pallets, boxes and envelopes, i would rather be fixing planes for a living! its what i love to do most.

you sound like a very unhappy man.

wages and money dont buy happiness! satisfaction in a job well done and pride in doing something that you love and doing it well, creates happiness.

As I was attempting to phrase a response to Mr Frozo, Ultralights has done it nicely for me. So I'll try to put it into even briefer grabs for Frozo than his own utterances from the HR Nicholls society.

Frozo, a happy workforce is a productive workforce. With me so far? The kids may be out of the mines, but the obscenities that contract-based CEO's are committing in their short-sighted obsession with the companies' bottom lines mean that if they had their way the kids would be right back in the mines. Great for the shareholders.

If you want to keep bending over and taking it up the arse and thanking the company for employing you, then you just carry on, but don't be surprised if your beloved employers don't thank you for it.

Strangely enough, as should be evident here, your fellow employees probably won't think much of you either, but you're a good capitalist, so you will be rewarded in the long run for your loyalty. Won't you? Actually, CEO's of listed companies rarely stick around for more than four years, so it's regrettably possible that your boot licking won't be noticed in that time. Bugger! Perhaps you should move on to page 2 of Industrial Relations 101?

Hint: check my profile, I'm not a pilot, that's always a good place to start attacking.

How long will I work in an industry ... blah blah..

Quiet simply.. until I'm not happy with what the industry pays, and I'm unhappy with the day to day conditions I encounter . That is what I've been argueing..
I'm quite happy with my income.

As for not understanding how labour markets work, I'm sure you'll find the majority of economists side with me; given my statements are based in economic fact.

You raise points about what you pay in relation to a happy workforce. Well congratulations, I am indeed happy for you. You have found what you are willing to pay, in relation to the work / attitude your employees provide. THAT is how capitalism works; Why abuse companies that pay less.. if you can do it better, start your own an aviation company. I have no problem with that. I'm sure you would have a problem if your employees turned up tomorrow asking for a 28% pay rise, and said that they would go on strike for it!

As for your arguement, you are saying that the customer is SCREWING the provider of a service?? Unbelievable... the customer will pay the minimum that they have to. So you turn up at the ticket counter and say "I think the pilots don't get paid enough, please - I'll pay double the price - just make sure you tip the pilot". What you have a problem with is competition, and predative pricing behavour.

If you really wish to study human behaviour in an economic context, study Marginal Utility behaviour. It guides all.

I'm quite happy, if I wasn't I'd be looking for a new job. Your final statement almost sums up my arguement. Lots of people are happy to be pilots, and they will accept a pretty low pay rate to do that job. Don't blame anyone other than yourself for that. Again , look at marginal utility theory. It really defies belief that hundreds stand in a queue to take the job of a pilot, yet people abuse them for saying they will do the same job for cheaper. Selfish indeed.

I only have an incy-bitcy, tincy-wincy bit of knowledge.

So perhaps you, Pass-a-frozo, can explain to me how, "Unions reduce the number of jobs available in an industry." Without the blanket statement, "it's a fact".

I was under some misapprehension that 'demand' is consumer driven.

Even assuming a worst case scenario, surely unions affect the 'supply' side of the equation?

If we embrace the modern 'market economy' (p.s. which is demand side driven) then the number of jobs demanded in an industry is a response to consumer demand. In a market (which by definition has an infinite number of buyers and sellers ) the price and volume of supply is determined by demand. It is a process of equilibrium.

If we are going to relegate unions to the fringes and castigate them as market aberrations, then we must do the same to the employer organisations.

To paraphrase you then - "the CAI and other employer organisations reduce the number of jobs in an industry".

In fact, neither is true. They both have their rightful place in the modern labour market. It is a process of negotiation and compromise.

Neither are reflected in your ignorant and biased views.

HIALS

I belive that you have missed the point that I was trying to commnicate... aviation is a high risk industry from an employment point of view.

With regards to safety etc.: your understanding of semantics has highlighted a weakness in my contention. Having said that, I'm the first to agree that the potential consequence of failure is high.

I'm big enough to admit when I've made my point poorly.

Ultralights

I actually agree with you. Excellent managment style!

One simple question: if you are such a good employer and your employees are so satisfied, why are they still members of a union?

By the way: earnt isn't actually a word. It is earned. :D

why are my guys still in the union? point being, i negotiate my terms with them through the union, no individual contracts! we all know wht would happen to inter employee relations if i gave one driver something the others didnt!



i knew passed a frod wouldn't answer my Question, i spent 11 Yrs at QF and NEVER received a payrise, even after numerous traing courses! then was finally told to get a pay rise, i needed to go to another pay scale, (take a CUT) then work again in the new scale for another 10 yrs to get back where i was!

were would you have stood in that situation without a union.???

without union negitiation, (and by union i mean a collective bargaining group) all of us would be Begging for tips just to scrape a living!

the underlying point to my previos post is....

Pay and conditions should never be based purely on Numbers and the bottom line!
Sure pay them what their worth, what their worth TO YOUR BUSINESS!!!

sorry for the typos, but after working 12 hrs a day, and being 1 am and all. my mind isnt exactly on good grammer and spellchecking.

though i must thank you for a good entertaining thread/ windup! :ok: