Crew meals - an employer obligation to staff and customers.
 

Should crews who are rostered for duty over “usual” meal periods be provided with a crew meal, by their employer?
I believe so, for the following reasons:-
SAFETY. Any responsible employer who claims ignorance of the effects on the body’s sugar levels during periods of abstinence from nourishment, is either naive or untruthful.
Sugar levels drop, concentration lapses, tiredness follows, and consequently errors are made and may go unnoticed.
Crews on duty NEED sustenance, to maintain a level of alertness commensurate with the responsibilities entrusted to them.

SAFETY. Employers of other workers recognize the need for their ground-based employees to have set meal breaks during recognized meal times – breakfast, lunch and dinner – and to allow those employees time off work to go to the subsidized staff canteen, or nearby convenience shop, food shop, or restaurant.
Crew on duty quite simply do not have this necessary luxury (of leaving their workplace to eat) afforded them, due to flight schedules – unless employees are willing to roster crews off, over these periods.
Why is it considered acceptable to recognize the nutritional needs of ground-based employees, but to ignore those of crews on duty?

SAFETY. Food prepared at home, or purchased from a “grab & run” fast food shop, may not always be prepared strictly in accordance with ideal food hygiene standards, nor wrapped/packed and stored in the optimum medium for keeping it bacteria free prior to consumption, in situations where employees must take their own food to work, thus risking food poisoning whilst on duty.
Food prepared at home, but forgotten and left behind, insufficient time to prepare food for eating whilst on duty, or lack of funds, may mean the crew member goes without nourishment during his/her entire duty period – or shares the SAME food as another employee.

I believe, that in the interests of SAFETY of employees and customers, employers of flight crews on duty are responsible for ensuring that crews on duty are provided with safe meals.

That's fine and dandy Kaptin, but adding 0.0002 cents to the share price, surely is more important.:hmm:

Quite often in the regionals, with aircraft changes and impossible turn around times crew meals don’t make it to the aircraft (in some cases that is a good thing they are so bad) so when operations are informed the response is ‘go with out them we will give you a voucher!’ (There is probably more nutrition in paper.) So where does that leave the company if the crews are involved in an incident that may have a contributing factor of fatigue due lack of food…..

;)

Kaptin M

I agree, in fact the provision of crew meals should form part of the overall fatigue risk management plan.

In the overall plan the cost of a few meals vs the cost of crew fatigue is "petty cash".

Duck - while you're hot on the trail of fatigue management, for totally altruistic reason's I'm sure, would you consider campaigning for "free lunches" for all staff, in all fields of endeavour, who work long or antisocial hours.
I'd love to hear you justify why your trough should be filled with free grub while just about every other wage and salary earner provides their own catering during a normal working day. You have galleys, you have refrigerated compartments, you have ovens and you may even get on well enough with some of the cabin staff to have them toast your ham and cheese sandwiches for you.
I believe Qantas have some left over boxes that are a perfect size for an inflight meal. If you're quick you can snare a lifetime supply for a song.

Isn't this thread, really, just a load of rubbish?
From someone who obviously has too much time on their hands!

Dear highly envious SeldomFixit, you wax on Well the reason PROBABLY might be something to do with the FACT that it's somewhat difficult to locate 7-11's at 10,000 feet above S.L.:O ..and that whilst we may "have galleys, you have refrigerated compartments, you have ovens" we cannot just wander - willy-nilly - as you earthbounds are able to do, at our whim and desire!!
For reasons obviously obscure to you, SeldomFixit - and those of your I.Q., pilots are restricted - by Law, and commonsense - in the distance that we can move from the flight deck...and the specific times at which we are able to do so.
Not that I expect you to fully comprehend the repercussions involved if we were to ignore those sensibilities!! :cool:
Try having someone read you the initial post (s-l-o-w-l-y), several times - then have a sleep on it, and do the SAME thing again....a few times!!

With 8 days OFF per month - EVERY month, Obie, I would hazard a guess that YOU - doing a "normal" 9-5 job, and being paid extra for working week-ends/early/late/Public Holidays - get far MORE time off than I!!
However, I am interested in trying to further the working conditions for my peers, and consequently put in the "extra half yard" for that cause.......GRATIS!!
Do you??

________pleeeeeeeeeezzze Kaptain...
 

owwww..... :ouch: that hurts, Kaptitano M. Where TF didja get that wacky font? It is making me go cross-eyed although that could also be a symptom of having to deal with nerds like RTA and Beanoss..... who knows........???????????

by the way, I get fed so much in my airline my gut is growing faster than my wallet. I eat several lunches and dinners every flight. I also enjoy using the 1st CLass crapper which is always very clean.... well not for long, I guess. It was named after it's inventor, by the way, Mr. Thomas Crapper.




Restricting your posting rights is becoming a tiresome habit! :{

It's probably time I considered making your banning permanent. :mad:

Woomera

Aw Haggy, it's nice to see you think of me. And I get to join the Nerd Herd too. YIPPEE!

I think BM is making a very important safety suggestion in regards to the OBLIGATION an employer owes to the proper and safe operation of a crew. International airlines fulfill this obligation, yet some Australian airlines do not. WHY?]

I guess those standards need not apply at QANDom, or more posters here would be taking it a bit more seriously. I have come to expect less from this forum's posters, but just vitriol for the sake of being so gets so bloody tiring.

Is it any wonder this forum is laughed at? It's occupied by little children who get offened when you call them names (yet THEY call that same name to Jet* pilots - Pot and Kettle scenario!). The underlying common theme is greed. "I'll have my cake, and I'll eat yours too".

Is it any wonder that nothing seems right in current Australian aviation when everyone is willing to bitch and moan, but couldn't be bothered for the most part to actually offer anything constructive? It all comes back to the ME ME ME factor.

To be honest, I am not surprised one bit in the way Australian aviation has panned out. With the relative demise of the AFAP, and it's replacement with more or less company run Unions (what's the bloody point?), pilot's haven't got a leg to stand on (not that many of them could care about anything that didn't directly involve them).

Proffesionalism just doesn't seem to exist much on this board. For shame!

Sorry to rant off and change topic.

HAHAHAHAAAAA ! ! !

Actually I don't think that many pilots actually even read this forum so who would care what people write in it? I wouldn't judge world pilot standards by what you read here.

Especially my posts.................. :ok:

Everything seems perfactly right in the aussie air scene to MOI except that I am getting fatter by the day.

I think an extra hosty should be rostered for crews with fat pilots and she could stand behind the guy with a big huge rubber belt around his gut and do a manual version of one of those fat-jiggling machines on his PHAT GUT.

For hours. :ok:


And I don't judge the airline industry by your totally ludicrous and irrelevent posts!

Do your parents know what you get up to on their computer?

Woomera

For ONCe we agree!

My last medical renewal ellicited an interesting letter from CASA Medical - they basically said I was too bloody fat to have free and full operation of an aircraft controls, and that my weight COULD impare my abilities in a walkaround yada yada yada...

Needless to say, I passed (after having to do a bloody Glucose tolerance test - not even a HINT of diabetes), but they "suggested" I lose 12 kilograms...

Is THAT discrimination, saying I am too fat? :ok:

I sometimes make reference to jason Hassard. I guess I am catching him, except there are no DC-6's left for me to fly.:ugh:

It's spelling time, and air-hag goes to the BOTTOM of the class ...whip whip....with his/her folly .......sooooooo, back on topic..

CREW MEALS.......can they make a difference to SAFETY?

Yeah......... was it the walk-around or did you have trouble pulling the prong back far enough for a normal landing?

That's gonna be my problem soon. Still, chicks don't like skinny guys do they???

Yes it is discrimination. Someone is discriminating against you on the basis of your big PHAT gut. The question is, is that illegal?

I discriminated against a fat girl the other day in favour of her slimmer, better-looking friend so you see it happens naturally in life every day! :ok:



Yes, well-picked up by Mon Kapitano Emm. I thought about going back and whiting it out but couldn't be arsed. And I never thought it'd be YOU to sink the boot in El Kapitano?!?!?? Well ok, you get the point for it... :{

Sounds a bit fishy, a-h :D ............and "Yes, I AM a boot sinker"......and "Yes, I TOO have discriminated when choosing Love Godesses" :{ ......or did THEY choose moir??????? Shaven ..or UNshaven????

Ummm...yes....I hope to get my point across!!:O

....1 all......
 

beep-BAAAAHHH...!!

TWO 'd's in the word "Goddesses" El Kappitano!

You bin drinkin??? :ok:

An obligation to staff & customers???

I dont know what your on about Captain M.

If you want lunch that bad then take your own.

ya Tosser!

gotta eat, 5 left right, or wot ever.Kaptin m is right......Even the companies U work for have to behave professionally,;)

To 5 Left & Right, courtesy of Binos Esq.,
"If you read the thread instead of baying from the sidelines just to hear your own voice you'd know the issues involved"

(Thanks Binos :ok: )

So KM, has your company just taken away the crew meals?

I presume that is th emotivation for starting such a thread.

Incidentally I agree that crew meals must be prvided for the same reasons you put forward.

Is it just me - or are there more and more posters these days treating this and other forums (fora for the inevitable rapid and witty riposte) as if they are in a chat room? Stupid comments, fired off without any thought. Gets a little tedious.

Oh no Dome, i thought a lot about my post, just like Captain M thinks a lot about his tummy.

But please, a post (rather more like a whinge) because you dont get lunch??

Does your flight attendent get lunch? Does the Loader get lunch. Does the check in person get lunch. Do the engineers get lunch. They all have in important job to do, they all can suffer from fatigue and low blood sugar etc.

Maybe i should start a post on the importance of taking a piss when you need to.

And as QF9 prepares to line up, the Captain calls for Runway Entering Checks.

Captain: Landing Lights?
F/O: On.
Captain: Transponder?
F/O: On.
Captain: Engine Start Switches?
F/O: On.
Captain: Flight Crew properly nourished and good to go?
F/O: Nahh, sorry Cap - I didn't get lunch.
Captain: Well... Looks like it's back to the gate.

Soulman.

I wasn`t aware that any of those people had the ultimate responsibility for the safe control of the aircraft and the safety its occupants in flight.

Loaders, check-in personnel, and engineers (except F/E`s) are all ground jobs, meaning they have access, AT ALL TIMES, to facilities such as staff canteens, cafeterias, convenience stores, etc.
Without demeaning their positions, if ANY of them get food poisoning, low blood sugar, or any other incapacitating illness, they are able to remove themselves from their workplace and not be a threat to the safety of the aircraft.
Similarly, a sick F/A is not an immediate threat to the safety of passengers.

"No" ys120fz, my employer has not taken away crew meals from the pilots. I believe that crew meals are an important issue for LCC employed pilots, and see that Tiger Airways (for example) has made up some feeble, bs excuse as to why they won`t be supplying their pilots with crew meals...and "No", I have not/am not made application to that mob.
I believe ths is a Safety issue - the cost of which would work out at only a couple of cents per pax.

From 5 yo L & R..."If you want lunch that bad then take your own." The hygene and storage standards that airline meals provide cannot be guaranteed to be met by the individuals - how safe is a chicken/fish/seafood meal prepared at home some 12 hours earlier going to be?

Crew meals, like other safety items onboard an aircraft are the responsibility of the employer, imo.

So, let me see if I understand the majority of posters here (most of whom I ardently assume are NOT flight crew).

You lot are saying that it is not the respnsibility of the airline to provide it's technical crew with sustainence? You are saying that it is not a safety concern, with, oh, say 200 souls on board?

OK, sure, let's tell the punters that the Captain and F/O haven't been, and won't be fed. The Captain and F/O are now running on fat reserves, and their blood glucose levels are depleting, ergo energy. That depletion affects brain function, and speed of thought and motion, and reaction time.

GREAT IDEA! Fools...

Whatever happened to the old "Chicken for the Captain, beef for the F/O" routine? :ok:

I keep forgetting that we simply run on caffeine.

I'd see it more as an issue of accessibility.

You can't always hop off the aircraft to buy your lunch/dinner (or whatever food) even if the aircraft does get on the ground, if you are on a tight turnaround, whereas a lot of ground-based people can physically get to a shop to procure their own lunch.

Because they do not have an easy access to food (they can't even ask someone else "in the office" to get it for them :E ), I do think the employer would be responsible for providing the flight crew with an opportunity to have the food (even if the staff had to buy it, if the company is being a really tight whatever).

I do believe that not eating properly can be a flight hazard, for the same reason already stated by RTA.

I do not really see that hyginie should be a major issue though, whether the crew prepared their own food at home or bought it from a kiosk or the food is provided on the aircraft. It's just called basic food hygiene that everyone should observe, whether one is preparing food for him/herself or others.

km I agree. In fact in Oz, it is a requirement that 'the employer provide the opportunity for crew to take sustenance at appropriate times'.

Going along with that, one woul dhave to assume if they don't provide the opportunity, then they must provide the sustenance to be taken onboard.

Earthlings find it difficult to believe that you can't park and nip into a restaurant at 35,000'.

Not only mere earthlings, ys120fz, but even more God-like creations - such as some airline managements (and I will NOT mention Tiger Airways, nor Virgin Blue as examples) - apparently look at the issue more from a pax point of view, ie. one sector, however earthlings and Glc's seem unaware that pilots may often be busier during transits (the time on the ground between flights) than inflight for various reasons, eg. maintenance problems, flight planning, pre-flight preparation, etc, etc, which precludes us from getting anywhere near a food outlet even IF one happens to be nearby.

Unlike just about EVERY other employee, flight crew cannot plan on taking meals at pre-determined times - the Safety and control of the aircraft (eg. avoiding weather, following ATC instructions....) must ALWAYS take priority, which may mean that on some flights - even though they are during the regular meal hours when every other worker "downs tools" - it might not be possible, at all, to eat. And then after blocking in, conditions may prevail that again preclude the crew from eating during the turnaround.
That is a couple of the reasons I believe the employer should provide the sustenance necessary to ensure that it is available - safely prepared, and safely stored, until able to be eaten.

Taking a few sandwiches along (that were possibly prepared hours before the first flight departs) and leaving them sitting in your nav bag for perhaps up to 8 or 10 hours, because the employer is trying to save a couple of cents (per pax), is inviting E. Coli along as well!! :ugh:

Kaptin M,

Whilst i've never flown up the pointy end, I do agree with your comments 100%.

The company DOES have an obligation to ensure that their tech crew are properly nourished whilst on duty. As another poster above has mentioned, it's not like you can just nip down to the staff canteen and pick yourself up a snack - particularly when doing long sectors or have turnarounds in outports without adequate eating facilities (or a break in which to eat your meal!).

It's all very well for the company to throw you a meal voucher in order to fulfil their obligations, but that doesn't really address the need for sustenance. Having seen many a crew meal in my time, I can agree wholeheartedly with the poster who lamented that the packaging would be more nutritious than the contents. This is especially true of regional carriers.

Just my thoughts.
SG
:}

Just a minor point, Kap, although I may have missed it. I agree that an employer should provide a meal for Tech Crew in flight, but is that same Tech Crew prepared to reimburse the employer the cost of the meal? Is there some reason that you (collectively, not personal) should get free food at your place of employment and, if so, WHY?

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.:uhoh:

If you agree that Tech Crew in flight should be provided with a meal(s) whilst on duty, then I assume it is on the grounds of Safety.
So should Tech Crew also be responsible for providing other Safety equipment on board, eg. torches in the cockpit, crash axe, O2, safety harnesses, etc, or is the provision of Safety equipment an employer responsibility?

My employer can have the $2.99 it costs for the average crew meal.

You are a devious man, Kap, you know EXACTLY what I meant, the food you want the employer to supply has to be paid for, why not by you? I would be in the same physiological state as you should I neglect my regular food intake; assuming I was still a sim. tech. would that preclude me from repairing a 35Kv Power Supply on the grounds of safety? AN didn't pay me to eat, why should your employer pay you? I said nothing about safety grounds, and to equate a/c safety equipment with crew fatigue is drawing a long bow, by even your standards. I suppose your reasoning could be that torches, O2, harnesses, etc., are replenished as required, why not crew food? Neat, but not in my book - if it is my responsibility to feed myself at work, then you can do the same. The fact that your employer can provide the food on-board does not preclude you from your responsibility of paying for it.

Over to you,

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.:ok:

...and you're an idiot Owl!

TNO,
Surely you can see an ALARMING gap between aircrew, and a sim-tech! A sim tech can stop, walk around, grab a meal, and go back to work (all the ones I ever worked around did!).

If a sim tech depletes his energy reserves, starts muddling things, and the like, who can he hurt except himself (unless he falls onto someone from the gantry)?

Aircrew cannot stop what they are doing, stand up, walk around, grab and sanga, have a chat, and go back to work.

If aircrew deplete their energy reserves, starts muddling things, and the like, who can they hurt? Couple hundred on board, and potentially thousands on the ground...

I know you deliberately seperated your response from safety concerns, but everyone seems to shirk the issue.

If it came down to management deducting a small amount out of paypackets for meals, then so be it, but it is not a good thing (most international airlines provide food for tech crew!). A sandwich or two would merely cost the airline PENNIES, and surely their profit, EVEN on low cost sectors, covers the cost!

I still ardently believe, as Kap does, that it is a safety obligation OWED to not only itself and crew, but the travelling public.

PLEASE, PLEASE tell me that you are NOT saying a fit Airline Pilot will become so incapacitated to be dangerous, if he doesn't get his Lunch on time? :rolleyes:

Unless you are operating 10-12 hour flights surely it is not a big problem?

During the Pilot's Strike in 1989, the America West Pilots used to duck into the terminal and happily buy their own Lunch during turnrounds, didn't seem to worry them. ;)

...and we now have another idiot!

Doesn't the mind just boggle at the fools we put up with?

Why do people here always resort to slinging insults? :(

Obviously I guess because they have no sensible response. :uhoh:

Ok! Idiots, (Owl, planemade2 and others) here's the challenge...

have an early dinner, get an early night and set the alarm for 0430 (that's 4:30am for the idiots, unlike Owl, who don't know what I'm talking about).

While you're showering, shaving etc, grab a cup of tea and a slice of toast and then into the car by 0530 arriving at work by 0600 (or thereabouts).

Now, let's work through, shall we, until 1700( 5:00pm for the idiots) without any food or liquids or sustenance of any kind, and then come back and tell us all about it!

You know, like, how it was a piece of cake and no drama at all, and how you could do it any time at all, like even every day if need be.

Looking forward to your reports!!!

IF you are even a Pilot, and you operate like that, I would think you are probably breaking some sort of Regulations.

I think you will find even the worst LCC in the World has drinking water on board. ;)

As I said before, if you are a fit Airline Pilot, surely going without one meal would not incapacitate you, and unless you are doing long haul flights even this would not NEED to happen.

Amos,
Unfortunately, it seems, some people think a pilot in an australian airline will fly, say, Brisbane - Sydney (1hr 20) and that is it for the day. YEAH, RIGHT!

How about say 4 to 5 sectors a DAY? That is, the air crew does ALL those continuous legs.

No, we don't just do an 1 or 2 hour flight, and have an overnight or home trip.

Planemad,
I think you are starting to get it.

Yes, it IS breaking "some kind of regulation" - it\'s called COMMON SENSE.

Like I said above, we don\'t do 1 sector a day - we do SEVERAL sectors a day, with 30 minute turn arounds at each (just enough time to have the aircraft refuelled, walk-around, reprogramme the FMS for the onward journey, talk to the load master, get clearances.....)

IF we are lucky, the FA\'s will give us a cuppa and a sandwich.

Best thing of all? Take a damned apple or banana. Better than nothing, and won\'t poison you!