Qantas employ cadets for JETSTAR ASIA
 

Just announced in the last few days from my sources, qantas cadets from the 2003 course awaiting industry placement have been placed with Jetstar Asia flying A320's out of singapore as first officers with only 250 hours total.

Qantas have decided to implement this halfway through the 2003 cadets course, the top half of them have been placed on the metro, the lower half on the A320. In other words, half are doing industry experience (Finally!) and the other half are not. Fair?

As with previous industry cadets they have had to pay 10000 dollars for their conversion. They go to brisbane or aukland for their sims, then fly as FO on fifty line flights with either Air New Zealand or Brittish Airways.

Then ending up in singapore they stay there for two years with an option of a third if qantas arnt employing and then go in as second officers. But with 4 years seniority, why seccond officer, why not first officer?

Thats just the news, you give the opinions.

So what sort of license will thy hold, cause 250 hours wont give them an ATPL? Or will it in Asia?


Sounds like BS.

I think its a pretty good idea. Although unfair to the other cadets, change has to occur at some stage and at some stage there is always going to be someone who is unhappy about it. The only thing I can't work out is why they would go back to being an SO but with 3 or 4 years seniority. It doesn't make sense to me, because surely with that seniority you will be due for an upgrade anyway. I think that they should stick them in the right hand seat so as they don't lose all those hand flying skills that they aquire from Jet* Asia. If those skills because these guys (and girls) are sitting in the jumpseat or simply sitting in a control seat in the cruise for any length of time, then what is the point? The only point I can see is for Jet* Asia to gain cheap FO's for a short amount of time. As I said, good idea in general as I believe cadets need regional FO time in a medium jet before long haul in a heavy jet, but there are a few problems with the idea.

My 2 bob worth

BlueLoo

Also, no need for ATPL for FO position in Asia, and also in a lot of other places in the world. CPL only is fine. ATPL only for Commanders and relief commanders, not FO\'s.

Yeah Sure. I can just see ANZ & BA allowing someone with 250hrs into the right seat.

Where is the A320 Sim in Brisbane?

Have I just fallen for a Wind-Up!!

blueloo

You do not need an ATPL to be an FO, just a CPL. QF requires LH FOs to have ATPLs so they can be in charge whilst the Captain is on a rest break.

Hydrolix

You hit it on the head, cheap FOs for Jet* Asia.....it will make the bottom line look better! I've also heard rumours they are having trouble attracting pilots due to the fantastic salaries being offered.

So this is why there was a change in the way cadets will get their seniority in QF. Anyway good luck to the cadets, great flying experience even though the work conditions might be a bit tough.

Fathom,

BA have been putting 250hr cadets in the RHS of 767, 757 and 737 aircraft for about 15 years. Surprisingly there have been few problems, considering the low level of experience.

will believe it when i see it!

Wouldn't like to be a captain though, flying in & out of Singapore with their (dodgy!) weather forecasts, in thunderstorm season, with someone with only a few hundred hours next to me - cadet or not...

Good luck to the guys if it's true...:rolleyes:

Hi all,

I'm afraid this is just down under catching up with the rest of the world. I fly with 250hr Cadets all the time all over Europe (Now let's talk about dodgy weather...). It takes a certain amount of SOP consideration (Handling limits, WX minima) but on the whole they do the job well and are gaining experience towards command that is, IMHO, more relevant than flying a 206 in the bush.

Qantas pilots subsidise low cost Asian carriers who would not pay fair money to attract suitable pilots.

QF pilots have lacked foresight before and if this goes ahead ( with the abysmal conditions anecdotal evidence suggests ) they have made another grave error.

If it does go ahead, no more bleating about being undercut by Virgin Blue and Jetstar pilots. Because you are doing similar to profe$$ional pilots abroad!

Gnad - don't you mean foresight!

:}

Slice

Cheers-in hindsight lacked foresight?

Gnads,
In what way are Qantas Pilots involved??
We are not undercutting anyone, we have no control here.
Cadets are not Qantas pilots until they start with Qantas, and join AIPA.
Qantas management on the other hand will take anyone for the minimum amount of money and that is lacking "foresight".
I have heard Dragonair has a new flying school in Australia, it's called "Jetstar!" :p

Fathom

It's definitely not a wind-up. I met one of them in Singapore. He's the first of five 2003 cadets who will fly for Jetstar Asia if the package is acceptable and they pass the selection process. He has not been given any details of the package on offer yet but we let him know about the high cost of living in Singapore. He said that Air North has taken all the cadets that they can handle so QF has made this offer which appears to be a win for QF and a win for the cadets.

Yep, I can confirm that this rumour is 100% true.

One of the cadets is in SIN currently "negotiating" their package.

Starting salary apparently around the 75k SIN mark. The fifty training sectors mentioned at the top of the thread will be done with Air NZ.

So sad if this is true. It just proves that Qantas management dooesn't give a toss about experience and safety. They will crew an aircraft at minimum cost regardless of experience. It used to be "safety before schedule", now its "dollars before safety before schedule". I just wish that the flight management would have the balls to stand up to the beancounters and say enough is enough. Jetstar asia single pilot IFR way to go !

Fully sanctioned by our f@ck&d up union as well. You can't tell me they didn't know about this when they signed off on LOA 161 !

Just proves to me that they are, but an arm, of QF Flt ops.

I thought the idea of the industry placement program was for cadets to gain some 'GA' experience prior to entry as an S/O. If QF are happy that they can handle going straight in as an F/O (no GA OR S/O time), then surely they are also competant to enter directly into QF as an S/O?
But QF has seen an easy way to save some money in Jetstar Asia by paying these cadets considerably less than 'off the street' F/O's, knowing full well that they will do nothing about it. Surely the cadets deserve the option of joining QF as an S/O instead of being forced to gain experience as an F/O before being promoted to S/O (and by promotion I mean having their wages and conditions increased to what they should be).
I think QF have taken what was a very useful program for cadets (I mean 2 years in a Bandit or Metro WOULD be good experience prior to entry as an S/O), and turned it into another way of saving money while exploiting those concerned.
I have no problem with cadets being placed in Jetstar (there are many airlines round the world who place 250 hour pilots in the right hand seat sucessfully), but how QF can justify paying them a LOT less than anyone else in the airline I dont know.

The main reasons that 250 hour pilots are employed in Europe is that the pool of self funding pilots is far smaller than here, and the number of pilots needed is greater than they produce. Can a person with 250 hours be put in the right seat and operate safely, yes, but isn't it more prudent to put someone in that seat that has more experience.

On a recent sim flight I observed involving a low time pilot, the Sim involved a wheel wheel fire on departure. The low time pilot did all the required checks, briefs etc, and flew the aircraft well, however what was lacking was CONTROL OF THE SITUATION. They waffled around the sky following ATC vectors for 30 minutes before landing. There was no TELLING ATC what they required. A switched on pilot should be able to get the aircraft on the ground within 12 minutes, conducting all required checks and briefs and without rushing the approach.

Airlines talk about the cockpit gradient in CRM, having the right balance of the Captains command, experience and authority versus the First Officer ability to interact with the captain. Here we have Qantas deliberately establishing a huge cockpit gradient.
Operating an aircraft is not just about the Captain being in charge and the FO assisting, its also the FO acting as a double check. Pilots sometimes dig themselves into a corner and it needs another pilot to see this and bring this to their attention.

An example of an accident invloving a large cockpit gradient was the Gulf Air A320 crash, http://www.bahrainairport.com/caa/gf...nformation.pdf . Here the Captain had over 6000 hours and the FO a 600 hour cadet. The FO did not have the experience to see what was happening and to either direct the captain, or take over and establish the aircraft in a safe situation. I doubt that this accident would have occured if a far more experienced FO had been in the right hand seat. Its when operations are abnormal that a low time pilot doesn't have the experience background to cope and becomes a liability on the flight deck, not an asset.

There are many experienced pilots in Australia and overseas who Qantas could crew these aircraft with, just look at the experience levels in the Qantas regionals (which Qantas tends to overlook). The best place to put cadets is in the qantas regionals where they operate in a known and standardised environment. Then use the experienced regional pilots to progress to a jet aircraft.

It a sad state of affairs when the dollar takes precedence over safety and commonsense.

Is it not also a very big ask to expect these people to be happy about living in SIN? Surely when you jump through all the QF hoops and get a guernsey you expect to be living in Oz. It's terribly disruptive to pack a family and move to another country - particularly as a surprise. If they'd wanted to live in Stinkapore they would have applied to SQ and taken the money!

Whilst I agree with the principle of what you are saying Wooby, I do have a couple of concerns. You quote the Gulf Air A320 as an example of a bloke who couldn't 'see' what was happening around him. Whilst that may be true, there were a number of reports of this guy being marginal and un-assertive in other situations as well.

To give the flip side, I've heard of an example (in fact more than one but the one I'm thinking of occurred in about '96) where the ex cadet S/O in the back seat saved the aircraft from a pretty nasty UA relatively close to the ground (below 3000')whilst the highly experienced F/O and the other ex military QFI S/O said nothing. Sure, hours under the belt can only improve the situation but sometimes its about more than that- and no amount of hours will assist.

As for the J* Asia guys, no in principle problems but it should be the same conditions as the rest of the F/Os they use up there.

Hmmm...lets bitch about money for a bit or look at reality....
Cadets are already being employed in the northern territory flying and Jetstar Australia's no. 4 & 5 airbus are going to Asia, they have too many pilots and not enough aircraft so where do you think the low cost pilot for the asian low cost carrier is going to come from, god some of you need to remove you head from your proverbial...

Packone had some intresting things to say from Rumor and News

Some of it a bit harsh and not true as i know them as well, others are spot on. They were the lowest in the course, its unfair to the other better cadets slogging it on the metro's and again its unsafe. but again your opinions please

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Packone



dangerous

- word is that their training will be with BA and ANZ.

- the higher achievers from the course were offered industry placements. most of these new a320 fo's are quite simply the ones that failed the CPL test or MECIR test or a few theory subjects etc....

- bare CPL and MECIR..... havnt flown since march? 200 hrs? Language barrier? Weather?

- a couple of these ungrateful were offered placements previously but told qantas 'no thanks, i want something better than that'. They should have been shown the door.

- having been around a few of them, i can describe some as downright immature.
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So let me get this straight...QANTAS is taking unexperienced trainees rather than pilots with GA experience, training them up to CPL standard, and then farming them out to other operators to get GA experience?????

Congratulation to the person who thought that one up. Does QANTAS get renumerated for these cadets or have they simply (mostly) paid for someone's licence/rating and then given them to someone else (albeit for a finite period - we think)? If that's the case, no wonder pilots have to go and pay for their own type rating, because other operators won't bother to do so if they can get free pilots from QANTAS.

I must be missing something here, please help....

LP

Tank Engine

I bet you a single malt that some QF mainline pilots will attempt to fly with Jetstar Asia. In previous careers, highly qualified and experienced pilots, now languishing as Second Officers or Junior F/O's in QF mainline, see Jetstar Asia as an opportunity to get back in the LHS ( or evil managment promises of a fast track ).

The cost of living in Singapore and the conditions on offer would suggest a level of desperation to people outside the industry. But this is the pilot paradox, which aviation management are awakening to, where pilots are somewhat irrational in their efforts to obtain their next break.

AIPA ( by sanctioning this mess ) and the ambitious QF pilots whose conditions will only move sideways, are artificially feeding the pilot market in Singapore. The Singapore pilot market an aberration-they are plundering pilot conditions of service whereas around the world demand and consequently, conditions of service, are on the up!

If Singapore becomes a hub for low cost pilot conditions-aided by QF pilots and AIPA-the ramifications, with possible open skies agreements, a dire one indeed. QF won't be looking to base just F/A's off shore!

Who could blame these languishing QF mainline pilots? Being aware of the pilot paradox. Motivated individuals, hungry for career ( but not renumeration ) and trapped by events such as Jetstar and Jetconnect.

Akin to a trapped Dingo chewing it's leg off really. Can't blame the Dingo either. Except for getting trapped in the first place.

Keg

Don't mistake the sanitised version of Gulf Air 72 that appeared in the Australian crash comic.

The young cadet involved, inexperienced and conveniently labelled unassertive, probably covered up a far worse set of circumstances- hierrachial cockpits, Flt Management cronyism, poor and cheap training, cultural face saving and a belief that experienced pilots are not worth the investment on a modern Airbus cockpit.

These are the very same challenges 250 hour QF cadets will face in Singapore!

Think this one through gentleman, the market was not going to let the Singaporians get away with this, but QF pilots sanctioned by AIPA will!

qantasnews you moron
 

well well, qantasnews, another case of a washed up pilot who is jealous of cadets, hows about you get your facts straight before you start bithcing about people behind their backs, i personally know all of the cadets, and although the top cadets have been placed, and the cadets in question are the lower ranked guys, there was still only 8% between the top placed cadet and the lower placed cadet in the grading system, also to mention that these arew cadets who failed their MECIR is bull*hit, you clearly have no idea, not one cadet failed the MECIR, one of the cadets in the lower bunch was the highest ranked cadet in flight tests, it just so happened that he failed a few exams, and from the sounds of things you don't really have much in between your ears, so i'm sure you failed some aswell. All of the cadets are trained to a high level, and are very capable of the job. the comment aboun BA not wanting to take on any 250hr pilots and put them in the RHS is also wrong, where do you think their cadets go......into the RHS of a 737/757/767/a320. so qantasnews, you have clearly stabbed the back of one of the cadets, otherwise you wouldn't have the info, so next time you wana stab someone in the back, make sure you do it with correct facts. wa*ker

Questions about this placement though

1. Do they get ICUS, if so does that mean they go straight in as Fo's? They will have the seniority and the hours?

2. Does this mean they can stay international earning big dollars over the other cadets who have to go domestic to gain ICUS.

All seems a lil lopsided to me.

There's a little rumour going around that the deal done for new cadets senioirity may not actually happen. Some problem with AIPA rules in reference to being a member.
So if the cadets come back in a couple of years, then that is when their seniority will start. Therefore no instant FO position.

Mole1010

Before you start having a go at someone for not having their facts straight, take a look in the mirror. One cadet did fail their CIR, and subsequently was terminated. Wake up and smell the jet fuel...

hydrolix

actually that cadet did pass his CIR, his attitude was however not appropiate and he was terminated for that! And he did continue the course with the cadets and got all his qualifications.maybe you should have a sniff of that jet fuel. plus qantasnews was saying that the cadets getting employed by JSA are the ones whop failed their CIR, so before you start slagging me, read the posts properly.

ON another note, i don't understand all this cadet slagging goin on in australia. Most of the young FO's in major airlines are cadets, and go straight to the RHS, e.g. BA, Lufthansa, DHL, etc. etc. plus how come there wasn't such an issue when ansett put their cadets in as FO's straight away.

I just think you guys should give them a break, i know most of you are he just out of interest, and are asking interesting questions, but the ones slagging the cadets should stop taking cheap shots, i bet you wouldn't talk to them about what you are saying to their faces. its you type of people the aviation industry doesn't need. so pi*s off

Cadet is stupid.

STOP SMELLING JET FUEL!

Mole1010 - Very few airlines in this economic climate are taking on cadets and this is really a throw-back to the military way of doing things. For some reason, the fallacy exists that pilots can be trained to a better standard if they are being trained for an "Airline" CPL rather than a "non-Airline" CPL. There is no difference other than the normal differences that exist between pilots in general.

It is even more ludicrous to hear that QANTAS recognise that the Cadets lack GA experience (or take that as experience in general) and so are sent off to gain the required experience in GA. Meanwhile, there are many suitable, qualified and experienced pilots out there who have what is lacking in the cadets! Hopefully, HR departments will recognise this next time someone (probably either ex-military or an ex-cadet him/herself) mentions the idea of taking on cadets. Can QANTAS really justify spending so much UNNECESSARY money to their shareholders? I ask again, what is QANTAS receiving from the operators who are placing the Cadets?

Please understand, this is not an attack on the Cadets themselves. Those who get through (and those who don't) will get no stick from me. This is purely pointing out a fairly rediculous and archaic practice that fails to recognise hard work and ability over the ability to pass a series of tests if you happen to be born within a select number of years. An idea that I'm sure most would feel distinctly un-Australian.

LP

Tank

I wonder if VB will start losing guys and gals to Dragonair etc now the music has stopped. (no more commands) and still some well experienced operators from all over residing in the right hand seat.

Does any one know if the Jet* EB has been finalised. Is it as bad as the rumour suggests? :bored:

If the QF recruiting department wanted the cadets to get some GA experience, then why do they send them to Airnorth?? That's not GA, that's a regional airline? Flying from 2000m sealed strip to 4000m sealed strip in the RHS not making decisions really defeats the purpose I think. I think everyone would be better served if the CIPP (Cadet Industry Placement Program) was changed to "Go Out and get a job, and come back when you have 1000hrs." But then the cadets would have to go and find a job like everyone else has. Wouldn't want to make it a level playing field would we???

And Mole1010, you're kidding aren't you? It's attitudes like yours that are annoying to fly with and give the majotrity of 'good' cadets a bad name...

mole1010, YOU should be the one to have a re-read! qantasnews was quoting packone in his post, and stated that "Some of it [was] a bit harsh and not true." You're fuelling the bushfire a bit...

LiberatorB24, I take it by staying international earning big dollars you mean becoming an FO on the 400? You can no longer vertically promote from SO-744 to FO-744, even if you meet the hours requirements (theoretically you can go SO-330 to FO-744 but something will probably come in to prevent that as well). The first promotion these guys and girls can take will be domestic FO, or FO-330 - and that will be some years off, even with their seniority!

In terms of AIPA 'sanctioning' this deal, AIPA doesn't have any influence over future employees. As far as I know, they wouldn't need to sanction (or reject) it, and have almost no ability to be involved in the process because its not affecting any of the members.

Lancer

Lowpass,
I agree on most points but you're possibly mistaken on one. It has been explained to me, by someone whose son was a cadet (that keeps the field pretty large!) that cadets actually cost the company nothing; why? Because the cost of their course, in whatever its form, includes not only flyng and ATPL subject fees but the $X000 psychometric assessment, sim time, clerical expenses etc. They are also viewed strongly to offer the prospect of greater allegience to QF for more years.
Does all that still make sense?... not to me really, when there are many capable pilots already out there with the requisite experience, but that's finances for you.

Agreed, QANTAS cadets don't cost the company anything, because the individual (or more likely the parents) pay for everything, including the flying. I'm just wondering if the cadets are bonded to the company for a certain amount of time. Many other cadets with different airlines, are required to stay with the airline for like 5 years, until the cost of their training is renumerated by the company. However, I think that this must just be for the companies which are professional enough to pay for the cadets' training, very unlike the ripoff merchants at Qantas.

Now now now, lets not make this thread about bashing qantas. Lets keep it to truth and not imature slander.

Thank you lancer for your comments, helped me understand a few of the questions i had mulling around in my head.

Now i am just intrested, as an average if you have the required QANTAS hours for promotion to FO from SO, how long does it take for seniority to call your name? three or four years?

In your opinions, would cadets from jetstar asia go to the 330 or is that highly sought after? They would have a 320 endoursement, is it a case of CX (Cross Crew Qualifications) for a 4 week or so course to the 330.

Any thoughts would be greatly apreciated. Again there are other threads for cadet bashing and qantas slander, plese if you feel the need to do so, go be among your own kind, we dont want it here. Thank you.

LiberatorB24, promotional seniority doesn't take qualifications into account at all... Preferences are completely up to the individual, and whether they have the seniority for the position or not depends on how popular that position is at the time.

The 767 used to be the most junior (conditions weren't fantastic at the time), now with fewer slots and better packaging it's more senior than the 737. The A330 is the most senior, short of the 400. Off the top of my head A330 FOs have about 7 years seniority, and 400 FOs are closer to 10.

People getting FO slots this year have 2.5 years seniority. Two years ago you could do it in less than a year!

The JSA cadets will have the advantage of seniority two years ahead of their start date. That's a can-of-worms in itself! A freeze period as an SO would be the easy solution.

Lancer

i apologise, i got a little heated in the moment, just a lil sick of the cadet bashing, aparently the talk is at the moment, to keep the JSA cadets on airbus types ( a330, a380 and possibly a340 ) as they would have a distinct advantage over guys and gals who aren't familiar with the systems. However this is an un resolved issue at the time. the a330 is beginning international routes on 10th august, so many more SO's will be required, and with the introduction of other airbus types coming soon, it would be silly to try and convert themto a boeing, why not keep them with what they know! just a thought.

once again, sorry if i fired off at an undeserving person, but if you are deserving, i meant every word!!!!!

Smokestak- don't expect to see too many Vb guys on the path to Ka. The first lot that tried to bail a few months ago provided a valuable insight into the standards at Vb- well below par for the industry (and remember Ka interview in Europe/ Asia & Aus). The two that have been successful have had extensive experience elsewhere and had high personal standards. Not unreasonable to expect a current jet captain to to have a knowledge of Dutch roll, aquaplaning etc really. Cheers,