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Qantas employ cadets for JETSTAR ASIA

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Qantas employ cadets for JETSTAR ASIA

Old 21st Jul 2004, 02:52
  #1 (permalink)  
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Exclamation Qantas employ cadets for JETSTAR ASIA

Just announced in the last few days from my sources, qantas cadets from the 2003 course awaiting industry placement have been placed with Jetstar Asia flying A320's out of singapore as first officers with only 250 hours total.

Qantas have decided to implement this halfway through the 2003 cadets course, the top half of them have been placed on the metro, the lower half on the A320. In other words, half are doing industry experience (Finally!) and the other half are not. Fair?

As with previous industry cadets they have had to pay 10000 dollars for their conversion. They go to brisbane or aukland for their sims, then fly as FO on fifty line flights with either Air New Zealand or Brittish Airways.

Then ending up in singapore they stay there for two years with an option of a third if qantas arnt employing and then go in as second officers. But with 4 years seniority, why seccond officer, why not first officer?

Thats just the news, you give the opinions.
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Old 21st Jul 2004, 03:10
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So what sort of license will thy hold, cause 250 hours wont give them an ATPL? Or will it in Asia?

Sounds like BS.
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Old 21st Jul 2004, 03:18
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I think its a pretty good idea. Although unfair to the other cadets, change has to occur at some stage and at some stage there is always going to be someone who is unhappy about it. The only thing I can't work out is why they would go back to being an SO but with 3 or 4 years seniority. It doesn't make sense to me, because surely with that seniority you will be due for an upgrade anyway. I think that they should stick them in the right hand seat so as they don't lose all those hand flying skills that they aquire from Jet* Asia. If those skills because these guys (and girls) are sitting in the jumpseat or simply sitting in a control seat in the cruise for any length of time, then what is the point? The only point I can see is for Jet* Asia to gain cheap FO's for a short amount of time. As I said, good idea in general as I believe cadets need regional FO time in a medium jet before long haul in a heavy jet, but there are a few problems with the idea.

My 2 bob worth


Also, no need for ATPL for FO position in Asia, and also in a lot of other places in the world. CPL only is fine. ATPL only for Commanders and relief commanders, not FO\'s.
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Old 21st Jul 2004, 03:33
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Yeah Sure. I can just see ANZ & BA allowing someone with 250hrs into the right seat.

Where is the A320 Sim in Brisbane?

Have I just fallen for a Wind-Up!!
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Old 21st Jul 2004, 03:34
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You do not need an ATPL to be an FO, just a CPL. QF requires LH FOs to have ATPLs so they can be in charge whilst the Captain is on a rest break.


You hit it on the head, cheap FOs for Jet* Asia.....it will make the bottom line look better! I've also heard rumours they are having trouble attracting pilots due to the fantastic salaries being offered.

So this is why there was a change in the way cadets will get their seniority in QF. Anyway good luck to the cadets, great flying experience even though the work conditions might be a bit tough.
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Old 21st Jul 2004, 04:04
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BA have been putting 250hr cadets in the RHS of 767, 757 and 737 aircraft for about 15 years. Surprisingly there have been few problems, considering the low level of experience.
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Old 21st Jul 2004, 04:48
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Thumbs down

will believe it when i see it!

Wouldn't like to be a captain though, flying in & out of Singapore with their (dodgy!) weather forecasts, in thunderstorm season, with someone with only a few hundred hours next to me - cadet or not...

Good luck to the guys if it's true...
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Old 21st Jul 2004, 05:12
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Hi all,

I'm afraid this is just down under catching up with the rest of the world. I fly with 250hr Cadets all the time all over Europe (Now let's talk about dodgy weather...). It takes a certain amount of SOP consideration (Handling limits, WX minima) but on the whole they do the job well and are gaining experience towards command that is, IMHO, more relevant than flying a 206 in the bush.
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Old 21st Jul 2004, 08:53
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Qantas pilots subsidise low cost Asian carriers who would not pay fair money to attract suitable pilots.

QF pilots have lacked foresight before and if this goes ahead ( with the abysmal conditions anecdotal evidence suggests ) they have made another grave error.

If it does go ahead, no more bleating about being undercut by Virgin Blue and Jetstar pilots. Because you are doing similar to profe$$ional pilots abroad!

Last edited by Gnadenburg; 21st Jul 2004 at 09:11.
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Old 21st Jul 2004, 09:04
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Gnad - don't you mean foresight!

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Old 21st Jul 2004, 09:12
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Cheers-in hindsight lacked foresight?
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Old 22nd Jul 2004, 02:05
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In what way are Qantas Pilots involved??
We are not undercutting anyone, we have no control here.
Cadets are not Qantas pilots until they start with Qantas, and join AIPA.
Qantas management on the other hand will take anyone for the minimum amount of money and that is lacking "foresight".
I have heard Dragonair has a new flying school in Australia, it's called "Jetstar!"
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Old 22nd Jul 2004, 05:59
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It's definitely not a wind-up. I met one of them in Singapore. He's the first of five 2003 cadets who will fly for Jetstar Asia if the package is acceptable and they pass the selection process. He has not been given any details of the package on offer yet but we let him know about the high cost of living in Singapore. He said that Air North has taken all the cadets that they can handle so QF has made this offer which appears to be a win for QF and a win for the cadets.
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Old 22nd Jul 2004, 06:03
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Yep, I can confirm that this rumour is 100% true.

One of the cadets is in SIN currently "negotiating" their package.

Starting salary apparently around the 75k SIN mark. The fifty training sectors mentioned at the top of the thread will be done with Air NZ.

Last edited by Capt Stabbin; 22nd Jul 2004 at 07:55.
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Old 22nd Jul 2004, 08:22
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So sad if this is true. It just proves that Qantas management dooesn't give a toss about experience and safety. They will crew an aircraft at minimum cost regardless of experience. It used to be "safety before schedule", now its "dollars before safety before schedule". I just wish that the flight management would have the balls to stand up to the beancounters and say enough is enough. Jetstar asia single pilot IFR way to go !
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Old 22nd Jul 2004, 12:09
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Fully sanctioned by our [email protected]&d up union as well. You can't tell me they didn't know about this when they signed off on LOA 161 !

Just proves to me that they are, but an arm, of QF Flt ops.
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Old 22nd Jul 2004, 12:37
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I thought the idea of the industry placement program was for cadets to gain some 'GA' experience prior to entry as an S/O. If QF are happy that they can handle going straight in as an F/O (no GA OR S/O time), then surely they are also competant to enter directly into QF as an S/O?
But QF has seen an easy way to save some money in Jetstar Asia by paying these cadets considerably less than 'off the street' F/O's, knowing full well that they will do nothing about it. Surely the cadets deserve the option of joining QF as an S/O instead of being forced to gain experience as an F/O before being promoted to S/O (and by promotion I mean having their wages and conditions increased to what they should be).
I think QF have taken what was a very useful program for cadets (I mean 2 years in a Bandit or Metro WOULD be good experience prior to entry as an S/O), and turned it into another way of saving money while exploiting those concerned.
I have no problem with cadets being placed in Jetstar (there are many airlines round the world who place 250 hour pilots in the right hand seat sucessfully), but how QF can justify paying them a LOT less than anyone else in the airline I dont know.
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Old 22nd Jul 2004, 22:56
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The main reasons that 250 hour pilots are employed in Europe is that the pool of self funding pilots is far smaller than here, and the number of pilots needed is greater than they produce. Can a person with 250 hours be put in the right seat and operate safely, yes, but isn't it more prudent to put someone in that seat that has more experience.

On a recent sim flight I observed involving a low time pilot, the Sim involved a wheel wheel fire on departure. The low time pilot did all the required checks, briefs etc, and flew the aircraft well, however what was lacking was CONTROL OF THE SITUATION. They waffled around the sky following ATC vectors for 30 minutes before landing. There was no TELLING ATC what they required. A switched on pilot should be able to get the aircraft on the ground within 12 minutes, conducting all required checks and briefs and without rushing the approach.

Airlines talk about the cockpit gradient in CRM, having the right balance of the Captains command, experience and authority versus the First Officer ability to interact with the captain. Here we have Qantas deliberately establishing a huge cockpit gradient.
Operating an aircraft is not just about the Captain being in charge and the FO assisting, its also the FO acting as a double check. Pilots sometimes dig themselves into a corner and it needs another pilot to see this and bring this to their attention.

An example of an accident invloving a large cockpit gradient was the Gulf Air A320 crash, http://www.bahrainairport.com/caa/gf...nformation.pdf . Here the Captain had over 6000 hours and the FO a 600 hour cadet. The FO did not have the experience to see what was happening and to either direct the captain, or take over and establish the aircraft in a safe situation. I doubt that this accident would have occured if a far more experienced FO had been in the right hand seat. Its when operations are abnormal that a low time pilot doesn't have the experience background to cope and becomes a liability on the flight deck, not an asset.

There are many experienced pilots in Australia and overseas who Qantas could crew these aircraft with, just look at the experience levels in the Qantas regionals (which Qantas tends to overlook). The best place to put cadets is in the qantas regionals where they operate in a known and standardised environment. Then use the experienced regional pilots to progress to a jet aircraft.

It a sad state of affairs when the dollar takes precedence over safety and commonsense.

Last edited by MrWooby; 22nd Jul 2004 at 23:18.
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Old 22nd Jul 2004, 23:18
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Is it not also a very big ask to expect these people to be happy about living in SIN? Surely when you jump through all the QF hoops and get a guernsey you expect to be living in Oz. It's terribly disruptive to pack a family and move to another country - particularly as a surprise. If they'd wanted to live in Stinkapore they would have applied to SQ and taken the money!
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Old 23rd Jul 2004, 01:00
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Whilst I agree with the principle of what you are saying Wooby, I do have a couple of concerns. You quote the Gulf Air A320 as an example of a bloke who couldn't 'see' what was happening around him. Whilst that may be true, there were a number of reports of this guy being marginal and un-assertive in other situations as well.

To give the flip side, I've heard of an example (in fact more than one but the one I'm thinking of occurred in about '96) where the ex cadet S/O in the back seat saved the aircraft from a pretty nasty UA relatively close to the ground (below 3000')whilst the highly experienced F/O and the other ex military QFI S/O said nothing. Sure, hours under the belt can only improve the situation but sometimes its about more than that- and no amount of hours will assist.

As for the J* Asia guys, no in principle problems but it should be the same conditions as the rest of the F/Os they use up there.
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