Gimli Anniversary

[Raider1]

For all the experienced drivers out there and maybe the wanna be's... Wednesday is the 20th anniversary of the famous Gilni incident.
You don't remember it?
Well let's just say it occurred in the early days of the B767 and involved a Canadian crew grossly underestimating fuel requirements. The end result.... the crew using their training and experience to somehow get the heavy metal to glide.
The attached link is a good read
http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Safet...mliGlider.html

[Hugh Jarse]

Err, I don't think it was the crew's fault. More like a systemic fckup leading back to management/procedures or lack thereof.

Which is the cause of the majority of prangs. The crew aren't often around to vindicate themselves.

You can read the report in the latest Flight Safety mag.

[Raider1]

I stand corrected on that point if I am wrong Hugh J.
The report I have mentioned fuel gauges not functioning and that the crew in conjunction with the refueller did a manual calculation

[Hugh Jarse]

Not at all, Raider 1

Here's the link for you. An interesting read

Flight Safety Australia

[Taildragger67]

How did they get the thing out? In bits?

[Winstun]

Err, I don't think it was the crew's fault

Wrong! The commander (as some of you airliner heroes refer to yourselves as) is where the buck stops on this one. He did not check on correct liter fuel uplift. End of story.

the crew using their training and experience to somehow get the heavy metal to glide.

Friggin basic aerodynamics.....piece of cake.

[Captain Custard]

Winstun,

On this one, I agree with you. These guys didn't know how much gas they took off with, period. They luckily saved their #rses.

I wonder if a "brace" call would have been appropriate before sideslipping a 767?? "@hit, where's that trolley going??!!". Or the pax in seat 34A to pax in 34B: "geez, I've never been able to see the runway like this before!!".

[Cap10 Caveman]

There is a movie about this, if I remember correctly it is called "Freefall". It's no blockbuster but interesting all the same. I wonder if any stations are showing it, usually a midday movie.

Cheers

CC

[Capt Claret]

This incident shows the stupidity of the aviation industry and aviating nations. Surprising really given the focus on safety.

Fuel units in Litres, Imperial Gallons, Gallons, pounds & kilograms. It's a disaster still waiting to happen.

IMHO to simply blame the crew ignores all the factors contributing to the accident.

Let's hope that when you have an accident or incident the investigators go further then the pilot f d up!

[Sheep Guts]

Yes totally agree Capt Claret. It is sad how the investigations allways run against us aviators. And also the difference in measuring units used in aviation world wide is crazy.

The Aircarft did get out with min fuel apparently cause its still flying with Air Canada I sometimes see it down here in Montego Bay its 767-200 Rego is C-GAUB I believe .

Interesting tale that one. Smilair to the Air Transat (another Canadian company) A310 that Engined out into the Azores from the Flight Levels. A while back last year wasnt it?

Regards
Sheep

[Menen]

In the Flight Safety Australia article, the captain of the Gimli Glider made the point that in Air Canada they were given no training on what to do if both engines fail on a twin jet. He saw this as a failing in pilot training. He said that "year after year, pilots attend training and learn the same stuff" - his feeling was that pilots should get more of these unusual situations. He said that if they had practiced in the simulator even once, it probably would have made it easier for the pilots to fly the aircraft deadstick.

He said that a few months after the incident Scandinavian Airlines had made it mandatory for pilots to perform a successful dead stick landing through the simulator before they were endorsed to operate any newtype of aircraft. I agree.

This type of lateral thinking seems beyond the airline industry in Australia and more so, beyond the CASA regulators who think these things only happen overseas - therefore outside the Australian comfort zone. So in the simulator here, we see the age old CASA approved engine failures at V1 ad nauseum, plus the predictable insistence on rigid cockpit "support calls". It really does not matter if you crash vertically in the simulator providing you don't forget to say "1000 to go" before hitting the ground. As Captain Bob Pearson says - pilots should be required to practice these unusual situations like the dead stick landing in the simulator. He is so right.

[ftrplt]

Menen,

practiced it twice during FO training at QF

[Transition Layer]

Sheep Guts,

That was an Air Transat A330-200 that went into the Azores last year which makes the whole thing even more remarkable given the automation of such aircraft.

Bit on info here - http://www.iasa-intl.com/folders/eto...atstory-1.html

Cheers,
TL

[flyboy6876]

Interesting comment TL. In the Flight Safety Article re: Gimbli, I seem to remember that they would not have been able to land in an A330 because of the automation. They would not have been able to cross the controls thus losing height when required.

[Hugh Jarse]

Wrong! The commander (as some of you airliner heroes refer to yourselves as) is where the buck stops on this one. He did not check on correct liter fuel uplift. End of story.

There were several factors contributing to what happened. The crew were the last link in the chain. To blame the crew is a simplistic answer to a complex series of events.

But that's your style winstun. Simple is as simple does.

[hoss]

Komba wan Jarso san ,

Mmm swiss cheese come to mind, good to see we were both listening when we did our CRM courses

Menen, yep he certainly had a valid point about double engine failure training. The last two Airlines I have been at have had these scenarios in their simulator/cyclic check and training.

(I'm touching wood) but have you ever wondered where you would go if you lost all power/thrust early after T/O over a populated area ie. Rwy 34 at SY , food for thought.

Safe flying, hoss

[Hugh Jarse]

That big park adjacent the old brickworks near Sydenham, Hoss. I reckon we could put it on the pavers, but might end up on the Princes Hwy if we have a tailwind (seems to be the norm with SY these days)

Bagus sekali !!!!

[GoGirl]

The Flight Safety Article was an interesting read.

Menen took the time to quote directly from the article, however, it seems that what you quote is not enough to satisfy even the toughest critics here on D&G

Hugh's posted some helpful links for the experts to refer to when they come back here to eat humble pie

I personally liked the fact that Captain Bob Pearson stuck around Air Canada for the next 10 years whilst puplicly speaking out against the company's findings resulting from thier own investigation into the incident.

[Next Generation]

If you have seen the movie FREEFALL, which is about this incident, you would get the opinion that this 17 minute glide lasted for about an hour !!!!!!!!!

[Willie Nelson]

I too was wondering whether the auto flight system on the airbus would be able to be tripped to permit such sideslipping as was the case with the 767,............ any one type rated on the Airbus able to respond?

This is one of the only instances that this sort of thing might be useful, that I can think of.

Picture having an Airbus go the all motor shutdown for whatever reason, PF manages to place said aircraft at 2500 feet at 2nm lined up with SY 34L unless he/she choses to conduct a 90 degree turn (or thereabouts) to the left and head for the Novotel possibly with the gear alreadly down, PF will have no choice but to watch the vast majority and perhaps all the 3 and a half odd k's of runway go silently sailing below as one heads for the brickworks.

I dont know the glide ratio of an appropriately configured Airbus or the potential to trip the system and allow sideslip. If I am not mistaken the Air Transat captain and perhaps the FO got their marching orders over this one (can someone confirm) If this system cannot be tripped it sounds like he had what was arguably a much more difficult task on his hands.

Bring on the training, if your outfit is not already doing so!


Willie