Virgin Atlantic soon to Australia
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Eastwest Loco, Virgin Atlantic has held a route licence on the Kangaroo route for a number of years now. The reason they have code shared is because they have failed to get approval to operate through Honkers. It seems to be a misrepresentation within Australia but is quite well known here in the UK.
I have lived in the states and Aussies are liked by the yanks... but they like the Scots more...
I have lived in the states and Aussies are liked by the yanks... but they like the Scots more...
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Thurs "Melbourne Age"
Confusion over Virgin Atlantic plans
July 17 2003
By Scott Rochfort
Sydney
Sir Richard Branson's latest extravagant pledge, this time to start Virgin Atlantic flights to Australia by Christmas, appeared to leave some aviation analysts baffled yesterday, and even some of his own staff bemused.
After meeting with Tourism Minister Joe Hockey in London, Sir Richard said that "maybe by Christmas or early in the New Year we'll see Virgin Atlantic flying either to Sydney, Brisbane or Melbourne, or even two or three of those cities".
In a further challenge to Qantas's dominance of the kangaroo route, Sir Richard said that if the airline was successful in its attempts to buy British Airlines' fleet of soon-to-be-retired Concordes, it will fly one of the supersonic jets on Virgin Atlantic's inaugural flight to Australia.
But it appears Virgin Atlantic's media department were left out of the loop. Said one media officer: "That was Virgin Blue.
"In relation to Australia at the moment there's no firm plans (for Virgin Atlantic)," she said.
But Virgin Blue, which operates as a separate business entity to Virgin Atlantic in the domestic aviation industry, said it was not part of Sir Richard's grand plans on the kangaroo route.
Adding more confusion to Sir Richard's comments, Mr Hockey said Virgin Atlantic would fly to Australia via Hong Kong, even though there are no clear indications that the Hong Kong Government will grant the airline "beyond rights" to fly on to Australia.
While the Hong Kong Government recently granted Air New Zealand rights to fly to New Zealand, some analysts remained sceptical Virgin Atlantic will be given rights to extend its current daily London-to-Hong Kong service to Australia.
"This is something that Branson mentions every six to 12 months so it's nothing completely new," said one analyst.
Some analysts said Virgin Blue could be more successful in its attempts to gain permission to fly to Singapore.
Qantas flies 21 services a week to London from Australia. If Virgin Atlantic started, one analyst said the impact would be marginal on Qantas, which already has 38 competitors on the kangaroo route.
========================================
Thurs "Sydney Morning Herald"
Flying a kite with supersonic vision
By Elizabeth Knight
July 17 2003
I guess it's not surprising that when a hyped Australian tourism minister, Joe Hockey, and the undisputed prince of self-marketing, Richard Branson, get in a room together, reality is the first casualty.
Aviation insiders reckon Branson has been talking about bringing the Virgin Atlantic service to Australia for years but nothing has ever come of it.
The fact that Branson is now talking about the inaugural flight being made by the Concorde just adds another promotional element to the statements he made in London yesterday.
According to Branson, the minister has been twisting his arm trying to get Virgin Atlantic to fly to Australia as soon as possible.
He went on to say that he would put a team of people onto it, and if everything could be sorted out then Virgin Atlantic could be flying either to Sydney, Melbourne or Brisbane, or two of these, by Christmas.
But it's a fair bet that Geoff Dixon over at Qantas won't be too worried.
In the first instance Virgin Atlantic would need to be able to extend its terminating rights beyond Hong Kong. In trying to do so it will come up against British Airways, which will do everything in its power to ensure that Virgin Atlantic cannot extent its franchise beyond Hong Kong.
Of course the decision will rest with the UK Government, but the most interested of "interested parties" to be consulted during the process would be BA. And as we know from our local experience, national carriers seem to have a disproportionate influence over government.
The second major obstacle in this equation must be Singapore Airlines, which owns 49 per cent of Virgin Atlantic and has certain rights over the use of the Virgin Atlantic brand.
Singapore paid more than most had expected it for this stake, but in doing so it acquired significant rights over the use of the brand - which allow it more control than the shareholding suggests.
For Virgin Atlantic to fly the Kangaroo route, the approval of Singapore Airlines would be required.
Singapore was remaining pretty mum on the whole notion yesterday and clearly wouldn't want to be seen as being the party that inhibits competition.
It would also be particularly mindful of the fact that there is a possibility that it will want to enter the Australian domestic market down the track and still has a team working on that plan.
Joe Hockey points to the fact that only two European airlines are flying the Kangaroo route.
The route, nonetheless, is well serviced by not only BA and Lauda Air but also by Qantas and a bunch of Asian carriers, plus some others like Emirates.
One of those carriers is Singapore, which must see Virgin Atlantic as not only a competitive threat but worse - one that would cannibalise Kangaroo trade.
For Virgin Atlantic, being able to feed into the Virgin Blue domestic network in Australia would represent an opportunity.
However it would encounter the disadvantage of not being able to offer anything more than a single class service, and that would discourage business travellers.
Feeding international travellers - especially those coming off BA and Qantas - into the local Qantas network offers a great competitive advantage.
John Howard is the next Australian politician scheduled to line up for a meeting with the great Branson later this year.
Howard seems less fixated than his deputy, John Anderson, on looking after the interests of Qantas.
But this deal will ultimately come down to a decision by the UK Government and then a decision by Singapore Airlines.
Qantas will not want any additional competition on this route - the last thing it needs is additional capacity that could affect its loads and price competition that will affect its margins.
Qantas must now be viewing its chances of getting its quasi-merger deal with Air New Zealand through as pretty slim.
The last thing it wants is any sign of Branson trampling on its international turf as well as its domestic turf.
For his part, Branson also sees this as an opportunity to further expand his Virgin brand.
Unfortunately for Branson, the chances of the lucky few chosen for the inaugural flight to Australia being able to fly the Concorde are not looking good.
Right now the £1 billion ($2.4 billion) he is offering BA to buy the aircraft has been flatly rejected. Indeed, BA is looking to pension off the supersonic planes by October.
Branson said these planes still had 25 years of flying life left in them. While the ballooning thrill seeker might get a kick out of his extreme sports, this columnist, for one, won't be stepping on board anything that's 27 years old.
===========================================
Confusion over Virgin Atlantic plans
July 17 2003
By Scott Rochfort
Sydney
Sir Richard Branson's latest extravagant pledge, this time to start Virgin Atlantic flights to Australia by Christmas, appeared to leave some aviation analysts baffled yesterday, and even some of his own staff bemused.
After meeting with Tourism Minister Joe Hockey in London, Sir Richard said that "maybe by Christmas or early in the New Year we'll see Virgin Atlantic flying either to Sydney, Brisbane or Melbourne, or even two or three of those cities".
In a further challenge to Qantas's dominance of the kangaroo route, Sir Richard said that if the airline was successful in its attempts to buy British Airlines' fleet of soon-to-be-retired Concordes, it will fly one of the supersonic jets on Virgin Atlantic's inaugural flight to Australia.
But it appears Virgin Atlantic's media department were left out of the loop. Said one media officer: "That was Virgin Blue.
"In relation to Australia at the moment there's no firm plans (for Virgin Atlantic)," she said.
But Virgin Blue, which operates as a separate business entity to Virgin Atlantic in the domestic aviation industry, said it was not part of Sir Richard's grand plans on the kangaroo route.
Adding more confusion to Sir Richard's comments, Mr Hockey said Virgin Atlantic would fly to Australia via Hong Kong, even though there are no clear indications that the Hong Kong Government will grant the airline "beyond rights" to fly on to Australia.
While the Hong Kong Government recently granted Air New Zealand rights to fly to New Zealand, some analysts remained sceptical Virgin Atlantic will be given rights to extend its current daily London-to-Hong Kong service to Australia.
"This is something that Branson mentions every six to 12 months so it's nothing completely new," said one analyst.
Some analysts said Virgin Blue could be more successful in its attempts to gain permission to fly to Singapore.
Qantas flies 21 services a week to London from Australia. If Virgin Atlantic started, one analyst said the impact would be marginal on Qantas, which already has 38 competitors on the kangaroo route.
========================================
Thurs "Sydney Morning Herald"
Flying a kite with supersonic vision
By Elizabeth Knight
July 17 2003
I guess it's not surprising that when a hyped Australian tourism minister, Joe Hockey, and the undisputed prince of self-marketing, Richard Branson, get in a room together, reality is the first casualty.
Aviation insiders reckon Branson has been talking about bringing the Virgin Atlantic service to Australia for years but nothing has ever come of it.
The fact that Branson is now talking about the inaugural flight being made by the Concorde just adds another promotional element to the statements he made in London yesterday.
According to Branson, the minister has been twisting his arm trying to get Virgin Atlantic to fly to Australia as soon as possible.
He went on to say that he would put a team of people onto it, and if everything could be sorted out then Virgin Atlantic could be flying either to Sydney, Melbourne or Brisbane, or two of these, by Christmas.
But it's a fair bet that Geoff Dixon over at Qantas won't be too worried.
In the first instance Virgin Atlantic would need to be able to extend its terminating rights beyond Hong Kong. In trying to do so it will come up against British Airways, which will do everything in its power to ensure that Virgin Atlantic cannot extent its franchise beyond Hong Kong.
Of course the decision will rest with the UK Government, but the most interested of "interested parties" to be consulted during the process would be BA. And as we know from our local experience, national carriers seem to have a disproportionate influence over government.
The second major obstacle in this equation must be Singapore Airlines, which owns 49 per cent of Virgin Atlantic and has certain rights over the use of the Virgin Atlantic brand.
Singapore paid more than most had expected it for this stake, but in doing so it acquired significant rights over the use of the brand - which allow it more control than the shareholding suggests.
For Virgin Atlantic to fly the Kangaroo route, the approval of Singapore Airlines would be required.
Singapore was remaining pretty mum on the whole notion yesterday and clearly wouldn't want to be seen as being the party that inhibits competition.
It would also be particularly mindful of the fact that there is a possibility that it will want to enter the Australian domestic market down the track and still has a team working on that plan.
Joe Hockey points to the fact that only two European airlines are flying the Kangaroo route.
The route, nonetheless, is well serviced by not only BA and Lauda Air but also by Qantas and a bunch of Asian carriers, plus some others like Emirates.
One of those carriers is Singapore, which must see Virgin Atlantic as not only a competitive threat but worse - one that would cannibalise Kangaroo trade.
For Virgin Atlantic, being able to feed into the Virgin Blue domestic network in Australia would represent an opportunity.
However it would encounter the disadvantage of not being able to offer anything more than a single class service, and that would discourage business travellers.
Feeding international travellers - especially those coming off BA and Qantas - into the local Qantas network offers a great competitive advantage.
John Howard is the next Australian politician scheduled to line up for a meeting with the great Branson later this year.
Howard seems less fixated than his deputy, John Anderson, on looking after the interests of Qantas.
But this deal will ultimately come down to a decision by the UK Government and then a decision by Singapore Airlines.
Qantas will not want any additional competition on this route - the last thing it needs is additional capacity that could affect its loads and price competition that will affect its margins.
Qantas must now be viewing its chances of getting its quasi-merger deal with Air New Zealand through as pretty slim.
The last thing it wants is any sign of Branson trampling on its international turf as well as its domestic turf.
For his part, Branson also sees this as an opportunity to further expand his Virgin brand.
Unfortunately for Branson, the chances of the lucky few chosen for the inaugural flight to Australia being able to fly the Concorde are not looking good.
Right now the £1 billion ($2.4 billion) he is offering BA to buy the aircraft has been flatly rejected. Indeed, BA is looking to pension off the supersonic planes by October.
Branson said these planes still had 25 years of flying life left in them. While the ballooning thrill seeker might get a kick out of his extreme sports, this columnist, for one, won't be stepping on board anything that's 27 years old.
===========================================
Last edited by Wirraway; 17th Jul 2003 at 01:34.
....well just shows how stupid that columnist is! Flying in the US she would happily sit on say a Northwest DC9 which was built in the mid-sixties - which makes it nearly 40 years old. She wouldn't know the difference.
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Giss et al , my "Give me a break" remark was not aimed at casting aspersions on the ability of VA crews to fly the Concorde, but rather the other aspects of such a transaction that I thought were self evident.
1. BA will sell Branson the Concorde over it dead corporate body.
Do I have to go into the reasons why? It will save me a lot of typing..
2. Should BA somehow be "shamed" into selling Branson the Concorde, VA will find that introducing a type such as this into their fleet will present somewhat more operational problems than a 737-NG.
Again, do I have to go into the reasons why?
and here is my pukey icon again.... I give it fearlessly!!
editing for spelling
1. BA will sell Branson the Concorde over it dead corporate body.
Do I have to go into the reasons why? It will save me a lot of typing..
2. Should BA somehow be "shamed" into selling Branson the Concorde, VA will find that introducing a type such as this into their fleet will present somewhat more operational problems than a 737-NG.
Again, do I have to go into the reasons why?
and here is my pukey icon again.... I give it fearlessly!!
editing for spelling
Props are for boats!
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Winstun,
I know your just trying to get a wind up onme....
But do you fly at all?
If you do, go and test yourself out on a High Cliff somewhere for us all!!!!
Is this a biographical account of yourself Winstun? 
Please tell me about youself because, quite honestly I couldnt be bothered doing a search on you.
Anomnynity is beautufull!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111 
I know your just trying to get a wind up onme....
But do you fly at all?
If you do, go and test yourself out on a High Cliff somewhere for us all!!!!
Do you inform them your average lovable Aussie is obese, mortgaged in an urban jungle, watches box nightly with scrubber and ankle biters, gloats over greedy real estate gains, and generally hates Americans (or pretends to?)
Please tell me about youself because, quite honestly I couldnt be bothered doing a search on you.
Anomnynity is beautufull!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111
Evertonian
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Don't get him started! Once he's got his "other" hand on the keyboard who knows what he'll come up with, from that padded cell of his!!!!!
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Meeb - One wonders why VS would choose to operate over HKG which is not a tradional port of call on the Kangaroo route.
Extra flying time and a recalcitrant Government would make it more appealing to operate via SIN or BKK.
The SIN authorities seem very open to 5th freedom rights as this generates the stopover traffic that keeps the dollars coming in.
BKK also fosters many 5th freedom carriers, and there is of course KUL.
Via HKG also increases the flying time as the angle closes considerably making the run less appealing.
Maybe it is something to drive more publicity - tilt against a windmill even though you do not want to conquer it.
Free advertising through editorial is an RB specialty and very clever too.
If VS has KR clearance, then it would have surely lit the wick in the engine via one of he other ports by now if serious.
Best all
EWL
Extra flying time and a recalcitrant Government would make it more appealing to operate via SIN or BKK.
The SIN authorities seem very open to 5th freedom rights as this generates the stopover traffic that keeps the dollars coming in.
BKK also fosters many 5th freedom carriers, and there is of course KUL.
Via HKG also increases the flying time as the angle closes considerably making the run less appealing.
Maybe it is something to drive more publicity - tilt against a windmill even though you do not want to conquer it.
Free advertising through editorial is an RB specialty and very clever too.
If VS has KR clearance, then it would have surely lit the wick in the engine via one of he other ports by now if serious.
Best all
EWL
Evertonian
I'm happy to be corrected about this, but I believe the HKG route is actually the quickest to LHR.....IF you have overfly rights for China, like CX has!
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Hi Buster
Just lit up Sabre and checked - actual flight times are as follows - using BKK as a transit point block time is 21hr 30 mins. Using HKG block time is 22hr 00mins.
I must admit the HKG route is far quicker than I perceived.
Best regards
EWL
ps: Flight times only - ground time not taken into account anc CX used for via HKG route.
Just lit up Sabre and checked - actual flight times are as follows - using BKK as a transit point block time is 21hr 30 mins. Using HKG block time is 22hr 00mins.
I must admit the HKG route is far quicker than I perceived.
Best regards
EWL
ps: Flight times only - ground time not taken into account anc CX used for via HKG route.
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great circle distance LHR-SYD (all dist. km)
via SIN: 17176
via BKK: 17090
via HKG: 17019
direct: 17016
obviously does not include jetstream routes etc.
via SIN: 17176
via BKK: 17090
via HKG: 17019
direct: 17016
obviously does not include jetstream routes etc.
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Fri "The Australian"
Branson tips Virgin float
By Geoff Easdown
July 18, 2003
VIRGIN Group founder Sir Richard Branson says he's "on track" to sell a 30 per cent stake in Australian low-cost carrier Virgin Blue to the public in October or November.
Virgin Group and Patrick Corp, which each own half of the company, will sell 5 per cent of their stakes in Virgin Blue.
Sir Richard said he expected an independent ruling on July 21 on the issuing of new shares, worth 20 per cent of the airline, after Virgin and Patrick failed to reach an agreement.
"It's still on track for an October, November float," Sir Richard said in London yesterday. "We went to adjudication on the 20 per cent of new money and I think the adjudicator will rule next Monday."
Meanwhile, Qantas poured cold water last night on Sir Richard's plan to begin flights from London to Australia.
The Australian flag carrier's chief financial officer Peter Gregg suggested that it was unlikely Sir Richard's Virgin Atlantic would obtain "beyond rights" from the Hong Kong Government.
Virgin Atlantic operates a daily flight between London and Hong Kong that must terminate in the territory under a government-to-government agreement between the Chinese territory and Britain.
Mr Gregg said he would be "very interested" if Virgin Atlantic managed to obtain rights to fly on to Australia.
"Despite trying for many years, Qantas was not able to obtain rights to fly between the UK and Australia via Hong Kong, he said.
A licence to take London originated flights beyond Hong Kong – known in aviation circles as "beyond or fifth freedom rights" – would have to be obtained by Virgin Atlantic if it was to pick up passengers in Hong Kong and fly to Australia via the territory.
========================================
Branson tips Virgin float
By Geoff Easdown
July 18, 2003
VIRGIN Group founder Sir Richard Branson says he's "on track" to sell a 30 per cent stake in Australian low-cost carrier Virgin Blue to the public in October or November.
Virgin Group and Patrick Corp, which each own half of the company, will sell 5 per cent of their stakes in Virgin Blue.
Sir Richard said he expected an independent ruling on July 21 on the issuing of new shares, worth 20 per cent of the airline, after Virgin and Patrick failed to reach an agreement.
"It's still on track for an October, November float," Sir Richard said in London yesterday. "We went to adjudication on the 20 per cent of new money and I think the adjudicator will rule next Monday."
Meanwhile, Qantas poured cold water last night on Sir Richard's plan to begin flights from London to Australia.
The Australian flag carrier's chief financial officer Peter Gregg suggested that it was unlikely Sir Richard's Virgin Atlantic would obtain "beyond rights" from the Hong Kong Government.
Virgin Atlantic operates a daily flight between London and Hong Kong that must terminate in the territory under a government-to-government agreement between the Chinese territory and Britain.
Mr Gregg said he would be "very interested" if Virgin Atlantic managed to obtain rights to fly on to Australia.
"Despite trying for many years, Qantas was not able to obtain rights to fly between the UK and Australia via Hong Kong, he said.
A licence to take London originated flights beyond Hong Kong – known in aviation circles as "beyond or fifth freedom rights" – would have to be obtained by Virgin Atlantic if it was to pick up passengers in Hong Kong and fly to Australia via the territory.
========================================
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Could Virgin GROUP effectively get around the 5th freedom issue by having a name change in HK? That is, VS operate the a/c in their own name LHR - HKG, then effectively ACMI charter the whole thing to DJ for the run south...
Agree - with WINSTUN
Winstun: I can only but agree with your assessment of the average punter.
But does your one inciteful jibe at the pox of humanity make the rest of your argument correct?
Hell! I hope not...
I heard on Radio National, something about Branson wanting to purchase the Concordes from BA to do the Kangaroo run. Now that would have me switching my European travel in a flash. To cut that commute by half would be fantastic. Better yet the SYD to LAX.
Question for PPruners, what's the range, cost per hour and capacity of the concorde? What would the seats sell for I wonder? Or is it just more clever marketing from Virgin.
But does your one inciteful jibe at the pox of humanity make the rest of your argument correct?
Hell! I hope not...
I heard on Radio National, something about Branson wanting to purchase the Concordes from BA to do the Kangaroo run. Now that would have me switching my European travel in a flash. To cut that commute by half would be fantastic. Better yet the SYD to LAX.
Question for PPruners, what's the range, cost per hour and capacity of the concorde? What would the seats sell for I wonder? Or is it just more clever marketing from Virgin.
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Lead Balloon - cutting the time in half assumes most of the trip is supersonic - which it wouldn't be.
If HK didn't allow 5th Freedom rights for transitting Hong Kong and Singers was looked at as an alternative, how would SQ view their half-brother also flying the LHR-SIN-OZ route?
If HK didn't allow 5th Freedom rights for transitting Hong Kong and Singers was looked at as an alternative, how would SQ view their half-brother also flying the LHR-SIN-OZ route?
Evertonian
was unlikely Sir Richard's Virgin Atlantic would obtain "beyond rights" from the Hong Kong Government.
Props are for boats!
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DJ737
That would shake it all up. And also I bet First Class and Business on QF would be empty. Theyd have to make all the ships Cattle class all the way. Just repeating my opiion of the Kangaroo route to London.
The flight as an economy Passenger is lousy, no leg room especially on BA and the QF 20 kg ONE PIECE/PERSON allowance is stupid as is the BA 23kg allowance. Now why is that different.
ALSO the $30.00 aud / Kilo over 20 kg excess is insanity.
I got stung badly on that and they didnt even give a little.
Its alot different to the US 2 PIECES AT 32KG allowance.
Man I hope Virg offers more baggage options than QF and BA.
Regards
Sheep
That would shake it all up. And also I bet First Class and Business on QF would be empty. Theyd have to make all the ships Cattle class all the way. Just repeating my opiion of the Kangaroo route to London.
The flight as an economy Passenger is lousy, no leg room especially on BA and the QF 20 kg ONE PIECE/PERSON allowance is stupid as is the BA 23kg allowance. Now why is that different.
ALSO the $30.00 aud / Kilo over 20 kg excess is insanity.
I got stung badly on that and they didnt even give a little.
Its alot different to the US 2 PIECES AT 32KG allowance.
Man I hope Virg offers more baggage options than QF and BA.
Regards
Sheep
As has been said before, for Virgin Atlantic to fly to Australia via Hong Kong and pick up passengers they would have to obtain Fifth Freedom Rights. There have been numerous discussions between the Hong Kong Government and the British Government on Fifth Freedom Rights over the last six years and all have failed. It appears that the British government is very reluctant to allow any Hong Kong carrier Fifth Freedom Rights to pick up pax in the UK and fly the Atlantic to North America.