TAAE about to bite dust?
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You cannot purchase an AOC. CASA will not allow it. You must buy the company . It would be impossible for PELAIR or anyone to slectively take what they want without the administrator doing some crafty moves. Not something that could be done in a few days and something that could open up a can of worms for any administrator with regards creditors. The AOC is the only valuable item in TAAE as the aircraft belong to a US company , not TAAE. To establish a new 727 AOC would cost a bundle. The 727's are AAE's backbone. I suspect AAE will be trying to keep these aircraft in the air at all costs , but they cant influence the administrators decisions too much as he has the responsibilities of the creditors on his shoulders . I have not heard who the Administrators are . Does anyone know ?
Oh and the point about noise. These aircraft are huskitted to comply with Stg 3 regs. There was a ruling that stated all stg 3 hushkitted aircraft had to depart these shores by dec 31 2005. I am not sure if thats still on the books or not - I think it is - which gives the 727's another 2 years of action here . After that a stg 3 by birth or stg 4 aircraft is needed in OZ. That will push the cost into the stratosphere for AAE. A310 or the likes do not come cheap. Lets face it , a 727-200F Stg 3 can be bought in the US for $1.5 mil. What price an A310 - $10M+ for a dog.
Oh and the point about noise. These aircraft are huskitted to comply with Stg 3 regs. There was a ruling that stated all stg 3 hushkitted aircraft had to depart these shores by dec 31 2005. I am not sure if thats still on the books or not - I think it is - which gives the 727's another 2 years of action here . After that a stg 3 by birth or stg 4 aircraft is needed in OZ. That will push the cost into the stratosphere for AAE. A310 or the likes do not come cheap. Lets face it , a 727-200F Stg 3 can be bought in the US for $1.5 mil. What price an A310 - $10M+ for a dog.
Oh and the point about noise. These aircraft are huskitted to comply with Stg 3 regs. There was a ruling that stated all stg 3 hushkitted aircraft had to depart these shores by dec 31 2005. I am not sure if thats still on the books or not - I think it is - which gives the 727's another 2 years of action here . After that a stg 3 by birth or stg 4 aircraft is needed in OZ. That will push the cost into the stratosphere for AAE. A310 or the likes do not come cheap. Lets face it , a 727-200F Stg 3 can be bought in the US for $1.5 mil. What price an A310 - $10M+ for a dog.
Oh and the point about noise. These aircraft are huskitted to comply with Stg 3 regs. There was a ruling that stated all stg 3 hushkitted aircraft had to depart these shores by dec 31 2005. I am not sure if thats still on the books or not - I think it is - which gives the 727's another 2 years of action here . After that a stg 3 by birth or stg 4 aircraft is needed in OZ. That will push the cost into the stratosphere for AAE. A310 or the likes do not come cheap. Lets face it , a 727-200F Stg 3 can be bought in the US for $1.5 mil. What price an A310 - $10M+ for a dog.
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Its not really up to Pelair or anyone to "buy" the AOC or the company, rather it is really up to the administrator to make a proposal to creditors that will provide them with some level of compensation for their loss. The sale of the company is solely dependant upon a successfully adopted Deed of Company Arrangement (DOCA), and on day three thats a tall order, especially when the company subject to a DOCA is by default the last thing to be sold.
Whoever the administrator is will not know the true and correct financial position of the company until the directors provide him (or her) with a Statement of Affairs, which takes at least 14 days.
Notwithstanding all this, any administrator is not going to be doing any fast eddie moves to sell any assets, rather his (or her) job is to administrate the affairs of the company over usually a two to three month period (generally 60 days), during which time they normally look for a buyer of the business. The main asset is a business that is a going concern.
To that end, the administrator CAN, WILL, and wants to be influenced by the financial support of AAE to keep the business operating. It is a situation of you sratch my back I'll scratch yours when it comes to AAE and TAAE (trying saying that ten times with a mouth full of Sao's), as each without the other is in rather hot water.
AAE cannot just flip their business to the belly of a 767 at QF on a whim or need, nor can the administrator afford for the business to close its doors because as a result he (or she) will have little to sell. As it has been rigtly pointed out, the aircraft are US assets, an there is not a lot of value of 727 ground support equipment here in Australia to pay the creditors and debts of TAAE.
Oh, and by the way, a 727 operation is not made of a second hand (or third, fourth or fifth) AOC. It takes a little more horesepower than that!
Whoever the administrator is will not know the true and correct financial position of the company until the directors provide him (or her) with a Statement of Affairs, which takes at least 14 days.
Notwithstanding all this, any administrator is not going to be doing any fast eddie moves to sell any assets, rather his (or her) job is to administrate the affairs of the company over usually a two to three month period (generally 60 days), during which time they normally look for a buyer of the business. The main asset is a business that is a going concern.
To that end, the administrator CAN, WILL, and wants to be influenced by the financial support of AAE to keep the business operating. It is a situation of you sratch my back I'll scratch yours when it comes to AAE and TAAE (trying saying that ten times with a mouth full of Sao's), as each without the other is in rather hot water.
AAE cannot just flip their business to the belly of a 767 at QF on a whim or need, nor can the administrator afford for the business to close its doors because as a result he (or she) will have little to sell. As it has been rigtly pointed out, the aircraft are US assets, an there is not a lot of value of 727 ground support equipment here in Australia to pay the creditors and debts of TAAE.
Oh, and by the way, a 727 operation is not made of a second hand (or third, fourth or fifth) AOC. It takes a little more horesepower than that!
Bottums Up
Busta,
Sorry to disappoint you but the Trident just doesn't have the p'zazz of the 722.
Not that it's an ugly duckling but it doesn't have the right proportions. It'd be like chosing Kylie Minow-gue over Elle!
Not that it's an ugly duckling but it doesn't have the right proportions. It'd be like chosing Kylie Minow-gue over Elle!
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3 Holer,
Not quite correct.
While in administartion the current debts are put on hold while the company is restructured to try and keep it as a going concern.
This can be done either to return it to the present ownership once the mess is clkeaned up or with approval for sale as a going concern. If this can't be acheived it will be placed in receivership and eventual liquidation.
You saw this mechanism in action with Ansett.
The only debts the admnistrator is bound to pay are those debts which he is responsible for authorising. The debts prior to administration can either be renegotiated as to their size or payment schedule so they are no longer current debts or they will be realised once the company goes into receivership and the creditors will get "x" cents in the dollar depending on the realised asset value which wlll be very litlle in this case. That is why it is sometimes worthwhile the creditors supporting the administartion and negotiating a payment schedule and also having an ongoing business.
Clearly if it is to be kept as a going concern a lot of parties must be prepared to forgive the debt or part of it.
Contrary to what you say it is very much like chapter 11 in the USA and was in fact modelled on it.
I'm not going to disclose the debts of those individual parties I know here. The point I was making with the 50K creditor is that a lot of small people get hurt in this sort of situation and it sometimes fatal to their enterprises. And as for your inference.... It's not me.
I have heard that there is one creditor alone owed in excess of 2M.
The aircraft are leased from Rothchild (2) DHL (2) and Intrepid (1) don't know who own the others but I'm sure you can imagine the size of those debts if they haven't been paid for some months.
These lessors will also decide whether there is any ongoing future for a lot of good people within TAAE. If they pull the aircraft as they would be entitled to do, there is no future for TAAE in any case.
In relation to the AOC it was issued to Aeromarine and it is rumoured that that company was purchased early in the week by Pelair prior to the administration. I'm not sure of how the shareholdings are structured but if there is any tie back to TAAE, I would suggest that this will be deemed a non commercial transaction under the Act as it would be deemed to detrimental to the creditors and the administrator or reciever could probably have the transaction reversed.
If the transacion did take place the question to be asked is whose AOC has the aircraft been operating on, if any, or does the operation now breach the borrowed AOC provisions.
What a mess!!!
Not quite correct.
While in administartion the current debts are put on hold while the company is restructured to try and keep it as a going concern.
This can be done either to return it to the present ownership once the mess is clkeaned up or with approval for sale as a going concern. If this can't be acheived it will be placed in receivership and eventual liquidation.
You saw this mechanism in action with Ansett.
The only debts the admnistrator is bound to pay are those debts which he is responsible for authorising. The debts prior to administration can either be renegotiated as to their size or payment schedule so they are no longer current debts or they will be realised once the company goes into receivership and the creditors will get "x" cents in the dollar depending on the realised asset value which wlll be very litlle in this case. That is why it is sometimes worthwhile the creditors supporting the administartion and negotiating a payment schedule and also having an ongoing business.
Clearly if it is to be kept as a going concern a lot of parties must be prepared to forgive the debt or part of it.
Contrary to what you say it is very much like chapter 11 in the USA and was in fact modelled on it.
I'm not going to disclose the debts of those individual parties I know here. The point I was making with the 50K creditor is that a lot of small people get hurt in this sort of situation and it sometimes fatal to their enterprises. And as for your inference.... It's not me.
I have heard that there is one creditor alone owed in excess of 2M.
The aircraft are leased from Rothchild (2) DHL (2) and Intrepid (1) don't know who own the others but I'm sure you can imagine the size of those debts if they haven't been paid for some months.
These lessors will also decide whether there is any ongoing future for a lot of good people within TAAE. If they pull the aircraft as they would be entitled to do, there is no future for TAAE in any case.
In relation to the AOC it was issued to Aeromarine and it is rumoured that that company was purchased early in the week by Pelair prior to the administration. I'm not sure of how the shareholdings are structured but if there is any tie back to TAAE, I would suggest that this will be deemed a non commercial transaction under the Act as it would be deemed to detrimental to the creditors and the administrator or reciever could probably have the transaction reversed.
If the transacion did take place the question to be asked is whose AOC has the aircraft been operating on, if any, or does the operation now breach the borrowed AOC provisions.
What a mess!!!
Last edited by d_concord; 19th Jul 2003 at 11:55.
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Hmmm an interesting revelation if true. I know that the Aeromarine operation was sold to TAAE right at the start of this debacle to allow TAAE into the air. Poor Bill got shafted on the sale. I do not think its his AOC to sell anymore . There were 2 727 AOC's - Aeromarine and IAF's . As far as I am aware TAAE has their own AOC now and the Aeromarine AOC and IAF would be dead and burried in typical CASA methodology. If the a'int being used they dont exist and you have to re-apply again if you want to use them ever again. Remember an AOC has to have rego's on it . Without the aircraft you cant have an AOC .
If TAAE have been running on a borrowed AOC then its time for a Royal Commission into this and all the other funny business that has gone on in Melbourne (Ansett) of late . The other issue is the maintenance approval -- I think its in TAAE's name. Without a maintenance agreement you cant have an AOC . They are all intertwined. I would love to know the truth of all of this. My guess is that if the Pelair rumour is true , then they may have purchased IAF's AOC (now defunct) . To get it , or any other AOC active with all the crap that goes with it will be a nightmare. Not something that will happen overnight. Time will tell.
If TAAE have been running on a borrowed AOC then its time for a Royal Commission into this and all the other funny business that has gone on in Melbourne (Ansett) of late . The other issue is the maintenance approval -- I think its in TAAE's name. Without a maintenance agreement you cant have an AOC . They are all intertwined. I would love to know the truth of all of this. My guess is that if the Pelair rumour is true , then they may have purchased IAF's AOC (now defunct) . To get it , or any other AOC active with all the crap that goes with it will be a nightmare. Not something that will happen overnight. Time will tell.
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Aviator in the know,
My understanding is that TAAE or a related party bought out Bill and that the Aeromarine AOC was still the operating AOC. I wasn't implying Bill sold Aeromarine again.
It will depend on how the corporate structure was and what entity or individual held the shares of Aeromarine as to whether there were any rights to dispose of Aeromarine and for what reason. However I'm pretty sure there was an sale agreement in place of some sort. What has happened since I'm not so sure of.
I have an idea of what took place and why but would rather hold off on that until I know for certain.
The IAF AOC is dead and buried. Of course even if it wasn't you still have to have all the structures and other approvals in place as you have indicated to be able to exercise the priviliges. Even if it was active they could only operate RMX subject to the above.
I just checked the CASA website and the AOC is Aeromarine Consulting trading as Transaustralian Air.
Not sure a Royal commission is appropriate just let CASA do their job and be consistent. The Ansett thing well that's a whole new ballgame.
My understanding is that TAAE or a related party bought out Bill and that the Aeromarine AOC was still the operating AOC. I wasn't implying Bill sold Aeromarine again.
It will depend on how the corporate structure was and what entity or individual held the shares of Aeromarine as to whether there were any rights to dispose of Aeromarine and for what reason. However I'm pretty sure there was an sale agreement in place of some sort. What has happened since I'm not so sure of.
I have an idea of what took place and why but would rather hold off on that until I know for certain.
The IAF AOC is dead and buried. Of course even if it wasn't you still have to have all the structures and other approvals in place as you have indicated to be able to exercise the priviliges. Even if it was active they could only operate RMX subject to the above.
I just checked the CASA website and the AOC is Aeromarine Consulting trading as Transaustralian Air.
Not sure a Royal commission is appropriate just let CASA do their job and be consistent. The Ansett thing well that's a whole new ballgame.
Last edited by d_concord; 19th Jul 2003 at 14:55.
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A little tale I heard suggests the toppling of TAAE may have been started by none other than Korda Mentha. The story goes that just prior to all the staff being stood down at the TAAE hangar, TAAE had briefly towed a B727 over to AAES. Once there, its exit was blocked by a hastily positioned Ansett a/c (B767?). A while later it was released (blocking a/c moved out of the way) and towed back to the hangar occupied by TAAE....then the staff at TAAE were stood down. Maybe all innocent and a case of 2+2=5 but.....
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TAA For Sale 6.5m
Nat. Jet is the only serious buyer to date.
For anyone with lazy super funds, now might be a good time to make an offer.
The Fleet:
VH-TBS, a 100 ex AN RMS, owned by TAA
VLF, a 200 ex AN RMN, owned by TAA
VLG, a 200 ex AN RMX, owned by TAA
TXH, a 200 ex AN RMV, leased from Prewitt, USA
VLH & VLI, 200LRs, ex AN ANB & ANA, leased from European Air Transport (DHL) Europe
TXE, a 200 ex Japan Airlines, leased from Finova, USA. This one is the orphan. Although a 200 it has a 100 fuel sys. & no aux fuel tank, operates east coast only. Its MZFW is 15000 above standard 200, has -17 engines(15500lbs, 500 more than -15) and is Stage 4 (all others Stage 3). The 31 Dec 2005 date is expected to be extended in the States and hence here also.
These aircraft a running like Singer sewing machines although the odd wheel falls off every now and then. A bargin!
Nat. Jet is the only serious buyer to date.
For anyone with lazy super funds, now might be a good time to make an offer.
The Fleet:
VH-TBS, a 100 ex AN RMS, owned by TAA
VLF, a 200 ex AN RMN, owned by TAA
VLG, a 200 ex AN RMX, owned by TAA
TXH, a 200 ex AN RMV, leased from Prewitt, USA
VLH & VLI, 200LRs, ex AN ANB & ANA, leased from European Air Transport (DHL) Europe
TXE, a 200 ex Japan Airlines, leased from Finova, USA. This one is the orphan. Although a 200 it has a 100 fuel sys. & no aux fuel tank, operates east coast only. Its MZFW is 15000 above standard 200, has -17 engines(15500lbs, 500 more than -15) and is Stage 4 (all others Stage 3). The 31 Dec 2005 date is expected to be extended in the States and hence here also.
These aircraft a running like Singer sewing machines although the odd wheel falls off every now and then. A bargin!
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ER2nd.
Close but not quite right !! The 727 was at the hangar for weighting, Its return was blocked by a 737,it was removed after Items of a designated value were procurred for outstanding fees !
Cheers
Close but not quite right !! The 727 was at the hangar for weighting, Its return was blocked by a 737,it was removed after Items of a designated value were procurred for outstanding fees !
Cheers
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I have just read the creditors report. Total owed is just under $ 7 mil. The big loosers are the tax office $ 1.75 mil and the leasing companies - $ 2mil usd.
On the surface of this report I expect this company will find a new owner and survive to fly another day - but nothing is sure in life except death and taxes !
On the surface of this report I expect this company will find a new owner and survive to fly another day - but nothing is sure in life except death and taxes !
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I've seen the circular to creditors as well and it's very much a preliminary one. Has some holes (denoted TBA) which I understand in one case is over 1M.
I also spoke to one party that said the figures for them were understated by about 30K.
The administrators have some 28 days to come up with final figures.
NJ, Virgin, Patricks and Horizon are all sniffing around with NJ the favorites it would seem.
I also spoke to one party that said the figures for them were understated by about 30K.
The administrators have some 28 days to come up with final figures.
NJ, Virgin, Patricks and Horizon are all sniffing around with NJ the favorites it would seem.
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Surely Virgin would be mad not to try and purchase the business and NJS would be mad to let them
Given that AaE is a joint venture between Qantas and Aust. Post, would AaE be able to reject a bid by Virgin? I can't imagine that Qantas would want to give Virgin a helping hand by awarding them some freight work.
Given that AaE is a joint venture between Qantas and Aust. Post, would AaE be able to reject a bid by Virgin? I can't imagine that Qantas would want to give Virgin a helping hand by awarding them some freight work.
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I never said that they may be interested in operating for AAE and I'm sure that AAE wouldn't let them.
I'm not sure that NJS will have any say in this unless they are prepared to step up and pay the price.
At the end of the day it will rest with AAE who buys TAAE and operates the aircraft if it is to be for them. It's almost certian that the original contracts have toppled because of the good old act of insolvency clause. AAE will have the right to do what they see fit going forward.
However, a ready made freight operator and network might hold some attractions for Virgin and Patricks to operate in their own right. It would have the added benefit of causing some difficulty for the AAE/QANTAS network while they move on the market ala the demise of Ansett so it has added value to them. It's certianly worth the looking.
I'm not sure that NJS will have any say in this unless they are prepared to step up and pay the price.
At the end of the day it will rest with AAE who buys TAAE and operates the aircraft if it is to be for them. It's almost certian that the original contracts have toppled because of the good old act of insolvency clause. AAE will have the right to do what they see fit going forward.
However, a ready made freight operator and network might hold some attractions for Virgin and Patricks to operate in their own right. It would have the added benefit of causing some difficulty for the AAE/QANTAS network while they move on the market ala the demise of Ansett so it has added value to them. It's certianly worth the looking.
Last edited by Rudder; 22nd Jul 2003 at 14:29.
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I cant see Virgin getting anywhere near it. Its not core business at a time when they are looking at a float . Plus the 727 is maintenance intensive - Virgin like the "no maintenance new aircraft approach" . Plus there is not enough money in the operation to excite them. Patricks .... unlikely again , but a slight possibility. Horizon - not enough money . Pelair - same problem but slightly better chances . My bets NJ. They have the money . All it takes is the will.