Dixon's daring but dangerous strategy
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Three Bars, Maybe you should be asking your union why they are not interested in helping "lower paid pilots" (Does this mean less worthy?), in negotiations with the mother company.
Not everybody is happy being paid less. You seem to imply this in your postings. Without the correct support, your wish of an equal pay scale, thus cementing your position, will never happen.
Before you pass judgement on individual pilots, perhaps you should look further up the tree towards the people who actually make the decisions that affect us.
Not everybody is happy being paid less. You seem to imply this in your postings. Without the correct support, your wish of an equal pay scale, thus cementing your position, will never happen.
Before you pass judgement on individual pilots, perhaps you should look further up the tree towards the people who actually make the decisions that affect us.
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DM,
I have written a lot about this topic on the Jetconnect thread. If you are interested, you can read them there. Basically, on that thread, I have said that AIPA may not have that many industrial options open at the moment and, that pilots should not join a company on very poor conditions, and then expect AIPA to ride to the rescue and increase them.
If you don't like the conditions, don't take the job and maybe if enough people do that, the conditions will improve.
I have written a lot about this topic on the Jetconnect thread. If you are interested, you can read them there. Basically, on that thread, I have said that AIPA may not have that many industrial options open at the moment and, that pilots should not join a company on very poor conditions, and then expect AIPA to ride to the rescue and increase them.
If you don't like the conditions, don't take the job and maybe if enough people do that, the conditions will improve.
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Three Bars, what is in place to stop QF placing QF 737's (maybe even NG's to compete with DJ) with "contractors" in QF uniforms, operating all accross Australia? Could easily be done. Eg, no more mainline crews trained on NG aircraft - from now on these aircraft to be operated by Jet Connect. Can this be done?
Similarly with Australian Airlines. What's stopping them from taking over major domestic routes from mainline?
Similarly with Australian Airlines. What's stopping them from taking over major domestic routes from mainline?
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HH - nothing. Personally I believe that what you have said will happen sooner rather than later.
I am hoping that QF starts to transfer -400's to Jetconnect (AKL-LAX) as this is the only thing that will get AIPA up of its ar$e to do anything aabout this problem
I am hoping that QF starts to transfer -400's to Jetconnect (AKL-LAX) as this is the only thing that will get AIPA up of its ar$e to do anything aabout this problem
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Three Bars, your latest post only serves to highlight you arrogance /ignorance towards other aviators. To deny any union representation to other parties within the QF umbrella is very short sighted indeed. Do you really think people are going to knock back these jobs to avoid offending you?
As for your comment about unions riding to the rescue. I dont think we have to worry about that at the moment. I think they would be minus their steed, as you seem to be pretty comfy in the saddle of the high horse.
Division amongst the ranks has always been an effective tool in these types of negotiations. This only degrades your position. Take a look at continental. I reckon you need to take a good look around the industry world wide at the moment. See anything?
I hope you are not representitive of all attitudes at QF. If so we are all done for.
As for your comment about unions riding to the rescue. I dont think we have to worry about that at the moment. I think they would be minus their steed, as you seem to be pretty comfy in the saddle of the high horse.
Division amongst the ranks has always been an effective tool in these types of negotiations. This only degrades your position. Take a look at continental. I reckon you need to take a good look around the industry world wide at the moment. See anything?
I hope you are not representitive of all attitudes at QF. If so we are all done for.
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The uniform comment I made is wrt to contract pilots being paid less than us but wearing the same uniform. I think that they should wear different uniforms because they are working for a different company, under different conditions, and do not have the same protections that we have.
Perhaps one should earn an additional gold (or platinum) stripe for each $50k increase in salary. That makes sense!
Many have worked hard for many years to wear a Qantas captain's uniform, and they object to seeing someone coming in off the street and wearing one straight away.
How elitist can you get 3 Bars? You get a Qantas uniform the day you join the company, regardless of your rank. The pilots don't own the uniform, the company does as part of it's corporate identity. Get over it.
When the public see the QF uniform, they naturally associate that image with QF mainline.
Next thing you'll be telling us you're all better pilots because you get paid more. Get your hand off the third bar mate!
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Gday all,
Fartsock, you hit the nail on the head!
QF are well on the way toward their budget domestic ops by way of Australian, Airconnex and Jetconnect.
The prestigious -400 club shall remain naturally intact, QF management know better than to upset the apple cart there!
Hell hath no fury like a -400 Captain scorned!
I'm gone!
Fartsock, you hit the nail on the head!
QF are well on the way toward their budget domestic ops by way of Australian, Airconnex and Jetconnect.
The prestigious -400 club shall remain naturally intact, QF management know better than to upset the apple cart there!
Hell hath no fury like a -400 Captain scorned!
I'm gone!
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DM,
Did you take the time to read my posts on the Jetconnect thread? If you haven't, I'd ask you to again. I know that QF-bashing is a great sport for many on this forum and, if someone has a different opinion to you and works for Qantas, then hey, they must be arrogant right?
I am all too aware DM, that the trend is toward lowering labour costs worldwide. Do you expect me to be happy about that? Or to welcome those who would seek to lower my conditions? Where do you work DM? How about someone offering to undercut you and put pressure on your pay rates? I can only assume that you would welcome them onboard, give them automatic union representation and (in the current climate) strike on their behalf (thus endangering your own job) to improve the sub-standard conditions that they have already agreed to.
Hugh,
I guess it must give you some sort of intellectual superiority to belittle other people's opinions if they dare to differ to yours. Your CRM on the flightdeck must be truly breathtaking!!! Personally, I'd rather live in my world than yours - a world where some take pride in the uniform that they have worked hard to achieve and where they care about preserving the good image of the company that employs them (whether the company values that commitment or not). Sometimes it is that image that entices passengers onboard and prolongs their employment. I guess it is that image and reputation that makes Qantas use those same uniforms and similar paintschemes on low-cost startups.
No Hugh, I don't think that we get paid more because we're better pilots. We get paid more because a group of individuals went on strike in earlier years to earn these conditions. In time, and in the right industrial climate, maybe that action will have to be repeated. It will not be helped by the continual downward pressure on wages that you and DM seem not to care much about. I only have about 15 years left in the workforce, and I'll be fighting to keep the conditions that I have.
If you, Hugh and DM, are happy to see the pressure currently being put on our wages, then I guess the legacy of low pilot wages for those pilots who join the airline in the future, will be a leagacy that you can both be very proud of.
Good on you Hugh bwahahahahaha
Did you take the time to read my posts on the Jetconnect thread? If you haven't, I'd ask you to again. I know that QF-bashing is a great sport for many on this forum and, if someone has a different opinion to you and works for Qantas, then hey, they must be arrogant right?
I am all too aware DM, that the trend is toward lowering labour costs worldwide. Do you expect me to be happy about that? Or to welcome those who would seek to lower my conditions? Where do you work DM? How about someone offering to undercut you and put pressure on your pay rates? I can only assume that you would welcome them onboard, give them automatic union representation and (in the current climate) strike on their behalf (thus endangering your own job) to improve the sub-standard conditions that they have already agreed to.
Hugh,
I guess it must give you some sort of intellectual superiority to belittle other people's opinions if they dare to differ to yours. Your CRM on the flightdeck must be truly breathtaking!!! Personally, I'd rather live in my world than yours - a world where some take pride in the uniform that they have worked hard to achieve and where they care about preserving the good image of the company that employs them (whether the company values that commitment or not). Sometimes it is that image that entices passengers onboard and prolongs their employment. I guess it is that image and reputation that makes Qantas use those same uniforms and similar paintschemes on low-cost startups.
No Hugh, I don't think that we get paid more because we're better pilots. We get paid more because a group of individuals went on strike in earlier years to earn these conditions. In time, and in the right industrial climate, maybe that action will have to be repeated. It will not be helped by the continual downward pressure on wages that you and DM seem not to care much about. I only have about 15 years left in the workforce, and I'll be fighting to keep the conditions that I have.
If you, Hugh and DM, are happy to see the pressure currently being put on our wages, then I guess the legacy of low pilot wages for those pilots who join the airline in the future, will be a leagacy that you can both be very proud of.
Good on you Hugh bwahahahahaha
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Uniforms used to mean something once upon a time.
To all those QF imitators you know, the subsidiary chappies and those foreign misfits, there is one discerning difference between your uniforms and those of a real QF pilot.
The real thing comes with an oversized hip pocket which can cater for your typical QF pilots wallet!
Hard to spot but the next time a QF pilot asks you to kiss his arse you might just see the difference!
To all those QF imitators you know, the subsidiary chappies and those foreign misfits, there is one discerning difference between your uniforms and those of a real QF pilot.
The real thing comes with an oversized hip pocket which can cater for your typical QF pilots wallet!
Hard to spot but the next time a QF pilot asks you to kiss his arse you might just see the difference!
Great thread 
Reminds me again why I don't visit this place very often.
too many people who think they know it all(and dont) who are so pathetically little in their lives that they venture here to attack those who attempt to put forward a different opinion.
99% of you should stick to just being a pilot and quit deluding yourselves that you would do any different to what management does.
Oh, that is of course, if you do actually wear wings.
Reminds me again why I don't visit this place very often.
too many people who think they know it all(and dont) who are so pathetically little in their lives that they venture here to attack those who attempt to put forward a different opinion.
99% of you should stick to just being a pilot and quit deluding yourselves that you would do any different to what management does.
Oh, that is of course, if you do actually wear wings.
Last edited by mmmbop; 9th Jul 2003 at 14:04.
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3 Bars, not belittling your opinion, just having a shot at reality. That's the beauty of this place. We can all have an opinion. You see, some people take exception as I did, to the outdated opinions (IMHO) that I quoted in my previous post.
I'm proud(?) of the uniform I wear too, and I worked my ar$e off to earn it, just the same as all my colleagues did. However, I'm becoming less proud of it as I see the way it's owner treats those who wear it. (A familiar tone?)
Having said that, I'm prouder of the (QF uniformed) people that I am priveleged to work with that bust their ar$es every day and keep the company profitable by doing what they do beyond the call of duty that goes completely unrecognised by the company.
Did you know I wear the same uniform you wear, except with some minor badging changes because we're not Qantas pilots you know......
I got into this job to further my career and do the job to the best of my ability, regardless of my employer. Not in some misguided idea of wearing a Qantas uniform. That just happened along the way...
If you think it's the image of Qantas pilots that entice people to fly with us again, I think you're sadly mistaken. The reality is that it's either the frequent flyer points, the monopoly on certain routes, or the cheapest price at the time that gets them coming back (not necessarily in that order).
As for my CRM, well I don't know....There are enough people who contribute to this site that fly with me, who could give you an honest opinion as to my CRM skills. I only did the CRM course 2 weeks ago, so I'm still learning
I'm proud(?) of the uniform I wear too, and I worked my ar$e off to earn it, just the same as all my colleagues did. However, I'm becoming less proud of it as I see the way it's owner treats those who wear it. (A familiar tone?)
Having said that, I'm prouder of the (QF uniformed) people that I am priveleged to work with that bust their ar$es every day and keep the company profitable by doing what they do beyond the call of duty that goes completely unrecognised by the company.
Did you know I wear the same uniform you wear, except with some minor badging changes because we're not Qantas pilots you know......
I got into this job to further my career and do the job to the best of my ability, regardless of my employer. Not in some misguided idea of wearing a Qantas uniform. That just happened along the way...
Sometimes it is that image that entices passengers onboard and prolongs their employment. I guess it is that image and reputation that makes Qantas use those same uniforms and similar paintschemes on low-cost startups.
As for my CRM, well I don't know....There are enough people who contribute to this site that fly with me, who could give you an honest opinion as to my CRM skills. I only did the CRM course 2 weeks ago, so I'm still learning
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I cant believe I am reading some of this infantile drivel. If people are going to post somthing, make it 1) sensible, 2) relevant, 3) respectful, 4) informative, 5) thought out, 6) rational and logical or, if all previous is not possible, 7)Funny. Fair Enough? (or I'll jump down ya modem and rip ya F@#$%^g arms off..)
Don't worry about the Uniforms, you might have to face more important issues.
Came across this rather interesting article about Dixon's "secret plans" to bust the Qantas unions from BRW (my highlights):
http://www.brw.com.au/stories/20030710/19527.aspx
This is deju vu to your OneWorld mates up here in the Fragrant Harbour. Give us a call for a heads-up on what's next.
Kind regards
(Oops...I see that the BRW topic is under discussion on another thread)
http://www.brw.com.au/stories/20030710/19527.aspx
Fight or flight
By Tony Featherstone
Does any chief executive in Australia have a tougher job than Geoff Dixon? The Qantas boss has downgraded the company's profit forecasts twice in the past few months and the airline is understood to have had periods of heavy losses since its last downgrade on May 8. Through it all, Dixon has stressed the extent of the problems Qantas faces and emphasised that he will take on unions to change their work practices, lower the company's cost base and close the 20% cost differential between it and Virgin Blue.
But Dixon has not gone as far as he does in this week's cover story. In an exclusive interview with BRW's chief business commentator, Adele Ferguson, Dixon stresses that the survival of Qantas is not guaranteed. He says: "Despite the demise of Ansett Australia and numerous airlines abroad, some people think Qantas will survive no matter what. In fact, they misread the signals and imagine that the Ansett collapse somehow guarantees Qantas's future. This simply is not true É it faces many obstacles in surviving."
Dixon might well be magnifying the airline's problems to strengthen its bargaining position with a large and militant labor force and to win more support from the Federal Government. His options include taking a hard line on unions to slash labor costs, relocating some of Qantas's operations to countries with lower costs, restructuring the entire domestic business to create efficiencies and slashing $1 billion in costs. Any or all of these changes will almost certainly spark heated industrial action, something Dixon is more than prepared for, as our second Qantas story in this issue reveals.
Stuart Washington tells the inside story on Qantas's plans to crush any union dissent. Until mid-May this year, Qantas was secretly preparing a team - known as "Day 21ers" - as part of an elaborate strike-breaking plan, which brought labor from New Zealand and Thailand to Australia on other airlines to avoid recognition by regular Qantas flight attendants.
Clearly Dixon is playing for keeps. With Qantas earning $10 billion in revenue against costs of $9 billion a year, he has little margin for error. No doubt Dixon is preparing for what might happen rather than what already has: another outbreak of Sars in the Chinese winter or a terrorist attack could more than wound Qantas.
Tony Featherstone Managing editor
By Tony Featherstone
Does any chief executive in Australia have a tougher job than Geoff Dixon? The Qantas boss has downgraded the company's profit forecasts twice in the past few months and the airline is understood to have had periods of heavy losses since its last downgrade on May 8. Through it all, Dixon has stressed the extent of the problems Qantas faces and emphasised that he will take on unions to change their work practices, lower the company's cost base and close the 20% cost differential between it and Virgin Blue.
But Dixon has not gone as far as he does in this week's cover story. In an exclusive interview with BRW's chief business commentator, Adele Ferguson, Dixon stresses that the survival of Qantas is not guaranteed. He says: "Despite the demise of Ansett Australia and numerous airlines abroad, some people think Qantas will survive no matter what. In fact, they misread the signals and imagine that the Ansett collapse somehow guarantees Qantas's future. This simply is not true É it faces many obstacles in surviving."
Dixon might well be magnifying the airline's problems to strengthen its bargaining position with a large and militant labor force and to win more support from the Federal Government. His options include taking a hard line on unions to slash labor costs, relocating some of Qantas's operations to countries with lower costs, restructuring the entire domestic business to create efficiencies and slashing $1 billion in costs. Any or all of these changes will almost certainly spark heated industrial action, something Dixon is more than prepared for, as our second Qantas story in this issue reveals.
Stuart Washington tells the inside story on Qantas's plans to crush any union dissent. Until mid-May this year, Qantas was secretly preparing a team - known as "Day 21ers" - as part of an elaborate strike-breaking plan, which brought labor from New Zealand and Thailand to Australia on other airlines to avoid recognition by regular Qantas flight attendants.
Clearly Dixon is playing for keeps. With Qantas earning $10 billion in revenue against costs of $9 billion a year, he has little margin for error. No doubt Dixon is preparing for what might happen rather than what already has: another outbreak of Sars in the Chinese winter or a terrorist attack could more than wound Qantas.
Tony Featherstone Managing editor
Kind regards
(Oops...I see that the BRW topic is under discussion on another thread)
Last edited by FlexibleResponse; 10th Jul 2003 at 20:25.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
IMO, it's well past the time that press releases started becoming more frequent, on the OUTRAGEOUS costs of airline management - Mr Dixon's, and Ms Jackson's ludicrous bonuses paid IN ADDITION to their employment packages....the frivilous millions of dollars spent in setting up new "low cost" subsidiaries, solely for the purpose of appointing MORE MANAGERS, rather than utilising the existing infrastructure.
Australian Airlines is a PRIME example of how management are becoing the water lillies of airlines - propagating at an ever increasing rate, as they choke the other inhabitants to survive!!
It (they) are becoming endemic in the airline industry, and imo are a major cause for so many airlines failing these days.
Australian Airlines is a PRIME example of how management are becoing the water lillies of airlines - propagating at an ever increasing rate, as they choke the other inhabitants to survive!!
It (they) are becoming endemic in the airline industry, and imo are a major cause for so many airlines failing these days.
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Well said Kaptin, I am glad that someone else is willing to speak out on the isue of management killing the coalface.
What we need is a thread somewhere showing the ways that we see that they are costing companies un-necessary money. Maybe such a thread might help bring airlines and common sense together
What we need is a thread somewhere showing the ways that we see that they are costing companies un-necessary money. Maybe such a thread might help bring airlines and common sense together
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From what I can see of your atitude on this thread 3 Bars, did you forget to log of somewhere. Is this post a wind up? That would be about the only plauseable answer for your attitudes.
Im guessing that youd be the type to wear full uniform at the shopping centre on a day off?
Im guessing that youd be the type to wear full uniform at the shopping centre on a day off?
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DM,
On Ralph the Bong's criteria, I think you missed out on the first six points, and the seventh one's questionable.
People should be free to express an opinion on this forum without receiving personal attacks like yours. You seem to find it hard to accept that anyone could possibly have a different opinion than yours. If you are content to see pilot's wages trending downwards, then good on you - but don't expect me to agree with you.
PS I think my uniform would still look much better in the supermarket than your safari suit.
On Ralph the Bong's criteria, I think you missed out on the first six points, and the seventh one's questionable.
People should be free to express an opinion on this forum without receiving personal attacks like yours. You seem to find it hard to accept that anyone could possibly have a different opinion than yours. If you are content to see pilot's wages trending downwards, then good on you - but don't expect me to agree with you.
PS I think my uniform would still look much better in the supermarket than your safari suit.