Still flying after Ansett & related stuff - Vol 2.

[amos2]

yes...I think Sub Sonic has a point here!

Clives' "bona fides" are a little suspect!

Especially as he, on his own admittance, did not pay back the moneys he took from AFAP members prior to regaining his job!...many of whom were then out of work for extended periods of time!

Might I also say, from a position of authority, that he was not alone in this!

Poor show eh!?

[leftfrontside]

I'm not going to get in a slanging match with you PPK as you are quite obviously of an extremely low IQ base. I'll let you in into a confidence, The Fat Man only beat me by a year or so leaving anyway as I had had a enough of the outfit anyway, he only hastened the move AND I haven't looked back AND never for an instant in the last 13+ yrs have I regreted my decision.

I CAN LIVE WITH THAT.

A guy in another thread summed you up perfectly - gutter feeder.

There endeth the lessen no more banter will be entered into:

[Spad]

I’m sorry, ‘Sub Sonic’, but I have to buy into this. Anyone who’s willing to take the time to troll through my posts in regard to 1989 will very quickly see that I’m no ‘hero’ worshipper. But to say that a pilot who had re-joined AN, whatever his circumstances, should have voluntarily forked out 1.5% of his salary - (or was it 1%? - I don’t remember) - to a union that couldn’t represent him is patently and utterly ridiculous.

‘Capt Zoolander’ and ‘Clive’, there will always be the few – the very few – who will hold extreme views on anyone who ‘slept with the dogs’ despite any evidence presented to them. The rest of us – the vast majority – are willing to abide by the March cut off date in categorizing what camp an individual stands in, even though most of us know of some who have ‘ducked beneath the wire’ by judicious memory lapses in just when they actually started or first applied.

The important thing is they know what they really did when the blowtorch was applied to our collective belly, and despite the loud protestations of some to the contrary, (like the ‘proudly’ heroic gentleman from Phonm Penh), it gnaws at them and I suspect it will continue to do so to the day they die.

[FarQ2]

Enjoy this thread from the sidelines. It's interesting how "The Dirty Dozen" or so there called and all the other lot who joined AN after March 1990 try to justify there positions.
Someone earlier here said that "quote" IF YOU LIE DOWN WITH DOGS YOU GET FLEAS- TRUE, but it is a condition.

It's called "STOCKHOLM SYNDROME"

Said my bit.

[mainwheel]

A few bitter gentlemen may remember me from Kuching one night in 1990. I said to you then that i had over a period of years resigned from both domestic airlines airlines in downunder and that once you write that letter, your ties are severed.
Isn't that what happened in 89??

[phnompenhkid]

mainwheel,

You can`t make it any simplet than that! Some just don`t hear it though.

Spad,

There are those, of Kaptin M`s ilk (to use his term) who do conveniently forget that they signed before the AFAP`s capitulation date.

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

farQ2 the dirty dozen were sacrificial lambs. they were ONLY employed by the company to demonstrate no discrimination existed in the recruiting policies of both airlines after the WAR. TAA had employed five.

[Clive]

FARQ2,

I've re-read mine and Zoolander's posts and can't really see how we were trying to "justify" our position. I reckon Zoolander was doing the opposite... ie: "FarQ and I don't care what you think" (to paraphrase). And in my case I thought it best to declare my interest before waxing lyrical on such a hot topic, and trying to get both sides to see things from each others perspective.

Anyhow, you're entitled to your opinion. I hope we're entitled to ours.

[Capt_Zoolander]

FarQ2

I have only one word to say to you, and that is "FarQ!"

For the more intelligent PPruner's

FarQ2,

Had this to say,


"Enjoy this thread from the sidelines. It's interesting how "The Dirty Dozen" or so there called and all the other lot who joined AN after March 1990 try to justify there positions.
Someone earlier here said that "quote" IF YOU LIE DOWN WITH DOGS YOU GET FLEAS- TRUE, but it is a condition.

It's called "STOCKHOLM SYNDROME"

Said my bit."


FarQ2,

I would agree that you are entitled to your opinion, just as anyone else here is entitled to theirs.

I thought I made my position clear on my last post on this thread, but just for you, here it is again,


> When the AFAP told us it was "OK" now to
> apply, I received the same response as
> everyone else, basically, "get stuffed!"

> About a year later (after going through the
> same recruitment "B###Sh##" as an intake > F/O), I was offered a postion in Melbourne
> as an "intake F/O". I was stripped of any
> recognition of previous service.

> I think you can, "get the idea".

> I can't remember the exact date, but I think it > was about six months or so are being
> "re-employed", that I decided to resign from > the AFAP

> This was a decision that I made myself with > no pressure from anyone else.

> I don't give a Sh**t, if some people here
> don't like it . I have a clear conscience do
> they? (you would be surprised at some of
> the stories I heard from the "Scabs" about
> who applied and when!)

FarQ2 thinks, "It's called "STOCKHOLM SYNDROME"

I know it's called an "AB INITIO PILOT BOND"

As far as I know, no "Scabs" were required to sign this.

Now remember, I had worked for Ansett for over 10 Years, and had a flawless record. I also had a First Class ATPL, which I obtained during my retirement, by updating my old Senior Commercial licence. (which I obtained at the the age of 21, before joining Ansett)

I was re-employed as an F/O and after the collapse I was still an F/O. I watched many of the junior "Scabs" get their commands, and will never forget listening to one of them telling me that he got his command because he "scabbed early"



Here is a copy of the "Bond",


By this Bond I, Capt Zoolander (hereinafter referred to as "the Pilot") an employee of ANSETT AIRLINES OF AUSTRALIA of 501 Swanston Street Melbourne, in the State of Victoria (hereinafter referred to as "the Company") bind myself to the Company for the payment to it of the sum of $25,000 (twenty-five thousand dollars) payable by way of liquidated damages and not by way of penalty.

Sealed with my seal this ** day of ***** 1991

WHEREAS it has been agreed between the company and the Pilot that the Company shall at its own expense provide for the Pilot and the Pilot shall undertake tuition and schooling to enable the Pilot to qualify for and obtain a First Class/Second Class Airline Transport Pilot Licence subject to the following conditions:-

1. That during the period five years computed from date hereof -

(a) the Pilot will not leave or resign from the employment of the Company to engage in employment as a pilot with another employer.

(b) the Pilot will faithfully serve the Company

2. That the Pilot shall execute the above-writen obligation conditioned as is hereinafter expressed.

NOW THE ABOVE-WRITTEN OBLIGATION is conditioned to be void in case the Pilot shall faithfully observe and perform the condition number (1) hereinbefore recited. The Pilot hereby irrevocably authorises the Company in the event of this Bond becoming enforceable to apply any monies to which the Pilot may be entitled to be paid by the Company in or towards satisfaction of the said sum. This sum shall relate to the unexpired period of this bond.

[FarQ2]

Well Capt Zoolander you have no one but yourself to blame it's in your post.
I would sooner dug a ditch than sign a piece of sh..t like that, I didn't and stayed in the industry without crossing the line.

[Clive]

Without "crossing the line". That's a concept you should explain sir.

You see if you are referring to the picket "line" then that particular line was removed by our union some 10 - 12 months prior to our group obtaining employment. It was officially removed when the union announced that all were free to re-apply for our jobs should we wish. History shows that about 300 applications went in, 100 or so were interviewd and 13 or so were offered positions. If it is some mythical "moralistic" line then we are getting into some very subjective territory there. Guess you were in a slightly stronger position at the time.

"I would sooner dug (sic) a ditch than sign a piece of sh..t like that". Another interesting concept! I'd bet London to a brick that that you were senior enough, with the experience required, to obtain a position within the industry. If you had spent some quality time to read our posts you would have noted that the Zoo boy and I were junior lads, unwanted by the industry and virtually unemployable some 18 months after the action, which we supported so valiantly, began. Our options were just that.... leave the industry and go digging ditches or swallow a bitter pill to remain in a career we had worked towards all our lives.

Sorry if we don't fit your mould of "good boys".

[FarQ2]

What a bunch of "prima donnas" to proud to dig a ditch, you lot obviously go round saying "I can only fly planes"

And I bet you drive to work with your cap on display on the back shelf of the car.

[Capt_Zoolander]

To Quote FarQ2,


"Well Capt Zoolander you have no one but yourself to blame it's in your post. I would sooner dug a ditch than sign a piece of sh..t like that, I didn't and stayed in the industry without crossing the line."

and

"What a bunch of "prima Donnas" to proud to dig a ditch, you lot obviously go round saying "I can only fly planes"

And I bet you drive to work with your cap on display on the back shelf of the car"


Yawn....


Are you the silver Bodgie, FarQ2?

Wasn't "Prima Donna" one of the terms "Bootlicker Bob" used during the dispute?

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

i'll wage that farQ2 was one of the applicants that never got a berth with one of the majors after the march capitulation. it's a shame the membership didn't realise the game was over in october '89 when Brian Mac tried to get the union members back to work.

companies reply ; too little too late. too bad that!

[Spad]

Here’s a story – some might say a parable – that some will (and some will not) think has any bearing at all to this thread…

A long time ago, two young Iraqis who were the best of friends left school together and went out to start their working lives. They were both very idealistic, but equally ambitious. Like men the world over, they aspired to a better life and to be able to provide a good home and education for the children they hoped one day to have. But neither came from wealthy families, so going into a private business that had any real chance of prospering wasn’t really an option, so they both opted for Government service and were accepted into the police force.

They shared many experiences as junior and, as their careers advanced, middle level officers. But then a new government came into power, and it didn’t take them long to see that the men running this new government were a very different breed to those they had forcefully replaced. So subtly at first that they hardly noticed it, they found themselves enforcing a new and very disturbing system of policing. No one could have objected to the first widespread arrests they were ordered to make – the men were malcontents and subversives who were clearly a threat to society. However, soon a net they were ordered to cast included many ordinary citizens whose only crime appeared to be that they came from the wrong tribal group or had been reported by neighbours for making the most innocuous criticisms of the government. Then they were told they must inform on any colleague or acquaintance who expressed any dissent or suffer punishment themselves.

The two men had remained close – what Australians would call ‘mates’ – and disturbed by the way things were progressing, they sat down one night and talked at length, both agreeing that they would never stoop to informing. But the informer network was already so well entrenched that someone else reported their meeting and both were separately taken in and questioned at length about the other’s loyalty to the regime.

One stuck to the promise he had made to his friend and said nothing, even when he was threatened with dismissal from the force. The other, promised rapid promotion and an easy life in the ‘new order’, saw the way things were going in the new Iraq and decided his first loyalty was to his family, (now there’s a familiar phrase), so for the sake of his family, he told his questioners what they wanted to hear, not just about his friend, but about others as well. He rationalized – (quite correctly, many here would say I’m sure) – that this was the only sensible course of action to take. People who insisted to standing by promises they had made in easier times were not being ‘realistic’, for it was obvious that the new government was here to stay.

And for twenty years or more, he prospered as one of the elite in a society where the elite lived a very good life. He was able to rationalize that the things he was asked to do in the execution of his everyday duties were quite normal, for the men who worked with him seemed to have no problem carring those duties out. But in the weeks after March 21st and the American invasion of his country, the safe cocoon he thought he’d built for himself came tumbling down, and suddenly bereft of that safe cocoon, he sought out his old friend, whose life had not been an easy one in the years since his dismissal from the force, and sought forgiveness. He was sure his friend would understand that it hadn’t been personal – everything he’d done, he’d done for his family. And his betrayal, had, after all, been over twenty years ago, and so much water had passed under the bridge since then that surely they could both put it all behind them?

[Ted Hunter]

Clive and Zoolander
it took courage and common sense to recover your positions in 1990,not everyone chose to jump off that cliff with them.
You do'nt need to qualify what was a great decision on your parts.
Your efforts and personalities was appreciated by all of us.


Ted

[amos2]

You are,of course,having clive and Zoo on,aren't you Ted?

[sniffer dog]

Interesting Clive and capt Zoo's bleatings about not being employable because of low time airlines etc, etc.

A very junior F/O (actually he wasn't chkd out on type-his first) went O/S with the rest of us in late '89 and became an F/O with a SE Asian carrier at the time, took his wife and new born with him DID it very hard for a while BUT had the support of his peers for his GUTS and CONVICTIONS.

This friend is now a 744 Captain and is only 36 yrs old so much for the "bull" of not being employable because of low time.

[amos2]

Yes, well said Sniffer!...Clive,Zoo,and their ilk really are .... wonders aren't they?

About time they accepted their lot, stopped trying to justify themselves, got on with life and accepted the fact that they will never be accepted for anything other than what they are!

[Eastwest Loco]

Again good people, I think we are still overlooking some of the pertinent points here, and one that has missed much attention is the roles of Brian and the AFAP in the debacle.

Our good and true '89er and "hero" mates did a Jack Newton following the lead of the AFAP directly into the path of a spinning propellor.

The forces that set the propellor in motion, ie: the Fat Dude and his minions with the SB for comedy relief knew just what to prey on, and did it perfectly.

Clarry the blind miner could see what was coming early on, but one small word explains why the impact was not seen earlier.

EGO.

Be honest gentlemen, ego is far from a dirty word, but it is what caused the "Custer's Last Stand" of the Australian industry.

Ego is something that you had to have in the first place to become what you are or were in your positions as Captains, FO's or Flight engineers as there still were then.

It is not a bad thing, but as it was only recognised by a few. The downside to an ego, the thing that allowed your self belief that facilitated your rise through the ranks is that it installed a feeling of invunerability. The shame is that the self belief is what makes an Airline Pilot what he or she is, and what makes you the consumate aviators you are or were.

So here we have a group of people, lead by someone hopelessly outgunned going head to head with an enemy that had all the I's dotted and the T's crossed, ready for every single move.

Many fell because of the approach taken, still convinced hey were invincible. Slowly some sat back and reviewed the data available and saw this, took a realism check and went back.

The division was another point of contention that the foe had preordained to further weaken the resolve of the now split factions, and it was played on to great effect.

Gentlemen, we from the bagchucker right through to the senior check Captain were had. It is time that was realised.

The villian, management/government. The catalyst, Ego. The victims, all of us.

Some still allow their ego to rule thoughts of this period. Now may be a very good time for review.

Best all

EWL