Making the air...err...clearer?
Nunc est bibendum
Gnadenburg, to be honest, who knows? It isn't unknown for QF guys to take each other on over percieved poor form on the airways. Would management even know? As for the 'alarmingly regular' bit, I'd say that on average I hear a QF tailed drive make a prat of themselves on the radio about the same ratio as other carriers in Australian Airspace. The difference here is that with 100 or so mainline jets, you are just more likely to hear it from a QF driver.
Does VB deal with their blokes? (I only gave two examples but I have a half dozen or so more but I'm not big into 'point scoring' in that way) Have they? That wasn't the crux of my point.
Frank, I don't particularly like it when people's come back to QF bashing is the 'did you get knocked back 10 times' tag although I have been known to ask the question without the 'ten times' bit though! It aids with understanding the contributors context. That you make you comments about QF with a background in 'safety investigations' I find just flabbergasting. Such close mindedness and confirmation bias I find dissappointing in someone who already has airline experience and is about to start with a new one.
Honestly, one bloke may have been a prat on the radio and here we are getting stuck into each other as to who is more professional and has or hasn't got into QF. Talk about a storm in a tiny tea cup. Amazing how 'precious' we can all be at times though. Good to see that we're all focussing on the big picture.
Does VB deal with their blokes? (I only gave two examples but I have a half dozen or so more but I'm not big into 'point scoring' in that way) Have they? That wasn't the crux of my point.
Frank, I don't particularly like it when people's come back to QF bashing is the 'did you get knocked back 10 times' tag although I have been known to ask the question without the 'ten times' bit though! It aids with understanding the contributors context. That you make you comments about QF with a background in 'safety investigations' I find just flabbergasting. Such close mindedness and confirmation bias I find dissappointing in someone who already has airline experience and is about to start with a new one.
Honestly, one bloke may have been a prat on the radio and here we are getting stuck into each other as to who is more professional and has or hasn't got into QF. Talk about a storm in a tiny tea cup. Amazing how 'precious' we can all be at times though. Good to see that we're all focussing on the big picture.
I can only agree with you Keg. Just goes to show what a close knit and supportive group pilots aren't. No wonder the GA drivers get continually screwed by the dodgy opertors, no solidarity..."I'll do it for less than him plus I'm better"
It is poor form for DJ guys to make smart a.rse comments about someone elses landing as it is equally poor form for the QF guy to "dob" in the DJ guy.
We all have a little dig every now and then about something - but it is one thing to have a joke with your offsider on the flight deck and quite another to push the PTT and transmit it to the world.
Having said that you occasionally get carried away with the moment and push the button - it however doesn't make it right.
If a DJ guy has the specifics of a transgression reported to head office - it is investigated - it is not a witch hunt - but a quiet question will be asked to see if there is any basis to the report - you would be surprised at how many vexatious reports are received - the majority made with no basis in fact - just people trying to s.hit on other people.
Sad really....
We all have a little dig every now and then about something - but it is one thing to have a joke with your offsider on the flight deck and quite another to push the PTT and transmit it to the world.
Having said that you occasionally get carried away with the moment and push the button - it however doesn't make it right.
If a DJ guy has the specifics of a transgression reported to head office - it is investigated - it is not a witch hunt - but a quiet question will be asked to see if there is any basis to the report - you would be surprised at how many vexatious reports are received - the majority made with no basis in fact - just people trying to s.hit on other people.
Sad really....
Evertonian
Thread Starter
Strewth!
This one got a few hits!!!
Gnadenburg. Didn't get the specifics of the exact nature of the reporting, but I believe it was on the ground, not over the air. Having said that, he strikes me as the kind of guy every organisation ends up with, due to the law of averages.
Kaptin. Thanks for answering my question. My company frequently uses autoland on our aircraft (os), if the facilities are in place at Australian airports, is there any restriction in our use of the autoland equipment?
EPIRB. Shorthaul. Definately, shorthaul.
As an airline employee for quite some time now (on the ground), I have seen a slow erosion of respect for "the other carrier". Obviously, I can't speak for the pilot body, but sadly, we were all played for fools by bean counters and aggressive little Hitlers in our respective HO's. Profits, it seemed, could only come from burying the other guy.
It's not hard to determine when this started, but is it at all possible to return to the days of mutual respect, spares pooling, friendly banter etc?
Gnadenburg. Didn't get the specifics of the exact nature of the reporting, but I believe it was on the ground, not over the air. Having said that, he strikes me as the kind of guy every organisation ends up with, due to the law of averages.
Kaptin. Thanks for answering my question. My company frequently uses autoland on our aircraft (os), if the facilities are in place at Australian airports, is there any restriction in our use of the autoland equipment?
EPIRB. Shorthaul. Definately, shorthaul.
As an airline employee for quite some time now (on the ground), I have seen a slow erosion of respect for "the other carrier". Obviously, I can't speak for the pilot body, but sadly, we were all played for fools by bean counters and aggressive little Hitlers in our respective HO's. Profits, it seemed, could only come from burying the other guy.
It's not hard to determine when this started, but is it at all possible to return to the days of mutual respect, spares pooling, friendly banter etc?
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Aust
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Buster, you left out price fixing in your last paragraph 
De-regulation and an obsession with competition policy killed the warm and fuzzies. I believe mutual respect and friendly banter is down to the individuals involved. From what appears on these forums every day I don't like the chances of it making a comeback.
De-regulation and an obsession with competition policy killed the warm and fuzzies. I believe mutual respect and friendly banter is down to the individuals involved. From what appears on these forums every day I don't like the chances of it making a comeback.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: messemate way to bondi icebergs
Posts: 411
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Question for the peanut gallery. What would the QF's captain have to gain by "reporting" the DJ A/C. 
Friendly Banter every now and then is healthy, eg someone landing long, you are oblidged to say - roll through approved. Play nicely boys, we are all pilots. Happy flying
Drshmoo
Friendly Banter every now and then is healthy, eg someone landing long, you are oblidged to say - roll through approved. Play nicely boys, we are all pilots. Happy flying
Drshmoo
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Sea of Tranquility
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Honestly guys, I am doing fine with the QF rejection. I went home and swung the cat for about 15 minutes then realised there are other airlines out there. So I can assure you Ozzy, it's ok, but thanks for your judgement.
The point I wanted to make is don't pidgeon hole someone for something that they don't fit. Just because someone loathes an airline, they aren't bitter and twisted, but as I feel I need no more justifying, I'll leave it at that.
Keg, go and be flabbergasted and I take your point, but it was made in the context to Ozzy that people have no need to be bitter and twisted if they get a knock back especially if they are like me and have other qualifications, so sorry if that came across as a confirmation bias, it was not meant in that way.
Personally in the past I have used a knockback from an airline as impetus to work harder and improve myself for the next interview. Can't see how one can be bitter and twisted for that.
The point I wanted to make is don't pidgeon hole someone for something that they don't fit. Just because someone loathes an airline, they aren't bitter and twisted, but as I feel I need no more justifying, I'll leave it at that.
Keg, go and be flabbergasted and I take your point, but it was made in the context to Ozzy that people have no need to be bitter and twisted if they get a knock back especially if they are like me and have other qualifications, so sorry if that came across as a confirmation bias, it was not meant in that way.
Personally in the past I have used a knockback from an airline as impetus to work harder and improve myself for the next interview. Can't see how one can be bitter and twisted for that.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
"Got a few hits"......most of them along the lines of "My d1ck's bigger than your's." 
Still who am I to judge..."Let him without sin cast the first stone", and that "him" sure as hell ain't me.
However, the action of this ONE QANTAS pilot - in addition to being unprofessional - has now added more fuel to the fire, for those who see QF pilots as self-appointed "Sky Gods" (to quote an earlier contributor).
Could it be, that as the QF captain who reported the DJ guy was "Shorthaul. Definately, shorthaul." (to quote Buster), he is still carrying baggage from 14 years ago? His type were divisive in Australian aviation then, and it appears STILL are today.
In answer to your last question, wrt autoland, Buster, the main restrictions on autoland-capable aircraft are the accuracy and reliability of the ground equipment (localiser and glide slope integrity), and a requirement for the aircraft to have demonstrated its proficiency to make a successful autoland within the last (usually) one month. There are also decreased x-wind and tailwind limitations ie. the maximum wind values are less than normal.
There is crew training involved, but as you can imagine, the emphasis is on monitoring the autopilot and autothrottle. Passive failure(s), or a sudden dynamic failure near to the ground requiring immediate manual intervention.
As I said earlier, autolands allow (qualified) crew to make an approach and landing under zero visibility conditions (Cat 3C) at certain approved airports.
Still who am I to judge..."Let him without sin cast the first stone", and that "him" sure as hell ain't me.
However, the action of this ONE QANTAS pilot - in addition to being unprofessional - has now added more fuel to the fire, for those who see QF pilots as self-appointed "Sky Gods" (to quote an earlier contributor).
Could it be, that as the QF captain who reported the DJ guy was "Shorthaul. Definately, shorthaul." (to quote Buster), he is still carrying baggage from 14 years ago? His type were divisive in Australian aviation then, and it appears STILL are today.
In answer to your last question, wrt autoland, Buster, the main restrictions on autoland-capable aircraft are the accuracy and reliability of the ground equipment (localiser and glide slope integrity), and a requirement for the aircraft to have demonstrated its proficiency to make a successful autoland within the last (usually) one month. There are also decreased x-wind and tailwind limitations ie. the maximum wind values are less than normal.
There is crew training involved, but as you can imagine, the emphasis is on monitoring the autopilot and autothrottle. Passive failure(s), or a sudden dynamic failure near to the ground requiring immediate manual intervention.
As I said earlier, autolands allow (qualified) crew to make an approach and landing under zero visibility conditions (Cat 3C) at certain approved airports.
What's wrong with this thread?
Very bad professional manners and the individual lambasted on pprune.
Some QF fellows felt that the attack on them rather than their culture. Or maybe they just don't like critisism.
Frank, sometimes you can be lucky to miss out on an airline, though this not realised until years later. There are a significant number of pilots who missed out on their dream job at Ansett in the mid 90s. Some I know are Captains in Emirates, Dragon, Virgin Blue and F/Os in QF.
I have found that once in a career airline you rest on your laurels, where as a bloke still in the open market strives for opportunities. Most make it in the end, I must add being blackbanned does not help from what i have witnessed recently!
Very bad professional manners and the individual lambasted on pprune.
Some QF fellows felt that the attack on them rather than their culture. Or maybe they just don't like critisism.
Frank, sometimes you can be lucky to miss out on an airline, though this not realised until years later. There are a significant number of pilots who missed out on their dream job at Ansett in the mid 90s. Some I know are Captains in Emirates, Dragon, Virgin Blue and F/Os in QF.
I have found that once in a career airline you rest on your laurels, where as a bloke still in the open market strives for opportunities. Most make it in the end, I must add being blackbanned does not help from what i have witnessed recently!
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Sunnie Coast
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keg
Out of interest, after arriving from HKG and sticking it on the markers, how did you arrive at the conclusion that it was a DJ crew that made that unwelcome transmission?
Were they the only A/C who witnessed your arrival?
Was the tower closed?
Were there no amatuer clowns with handhelds that morning?
Or did you just assume it was them..... ?
Out of interest, after arriving from HKG and sticking it on the markers, how did you arrive at the conclusion that it was a DJ crew that made that unwelcome transmission?
Were they the only A/C who witnessed your arrival?
Was the tower closed?
Were there no amatuer clowns with handhelds that morning?
Or did you just assume it was them..... ?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Living next door to Alan
Posts: 1,521
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The entire way Qantas runs its business needs to be changed. Financially the airline is a powerhouse. In terms of staff morale and customer service at best Qantas is tolerated. At worst it is laughed at. Loudly.
How long until safety is effected as a result of bully-boy tactics?Gidday Keg. I spend a lot of time in the airspace between ML/SY/BN as you know. I'm sorry to say that there are a lot of your colleagues "misbehaving" on the radio.
We just have a good laugh in the flight deck when we hear it. ATC must grit their teeth though
Quick question from the peanut gallery: Why do the QF 767's taxi with ALL their taxi/landing lights on at night? It makes it extremely difficult for us mere mortals to do our job if we are heading in the opposite direction.
It seems to be a unique set of SOP's as no other operator of this type into Oz seems to do it.
Happy new year
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reading this post I've been wondering - If a QF Capt. and FO run into or pass a DJ Capt and FO at work or in the carpark/ hotel (whatever) do they say "G'day" or just ignore eachother? What about in the days of Ansett?
Where I work (GA) we are all good mates with the oppositions pilots. United in having a whinge about our bosses from time to time and united in having beer.
Am I just living in a rare set of circumstances? Do things change when you get into an airline?
Where I work (GA) we are all good mates with the oppositions pilots. United in having a whinge about our bosses from time to time and united in having beer.
Am I just living in a rare set of circumstances? Do things change when you get into an airline?
Nunc est bibendum
RaTa, got it in one. Pretty easy when the next comment after his 'doh' was 'Virgin XXX, line up' and when the acknowledgment came back from the VB a/c the voices were identical to the 'doh' maker. Claka, I've been on PPRUNE for a while now. Those regulars here would know that whilst I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve when it comes to my company, I'm not one to make up a story or post info about an occurence unless I'm pretty confident about the accuracy of it.
Hugh, perhaps you're lack of relative speed also means that you're in the airspace where this happens a lot longer than I am . Seriously though, point taken.
Yes it happens (and not just 767 drivers and something I've never denied), yes I've cringed when the boss has asked me to make what I would consider to be a 'dumb' request/ comment but again I'd say that the proportions are probably equal as far as number of aircraft in the air from each company are concerned. I will grant that I'm one of the trees in the forest and so the view may be a little different from where I am however I don't tar any airline just because of the half dozen or so prats who frequent the airways on a continual basis.
Hat, gotta say that I love talking to crews from different airlines. Anything that I can learn about the way they operate could be useful to me at some stage in the future. I'm not too humble to admit that the majority of lessons in aviation have equal application across the range of carriers and I never know when I can pick up some gen from the 'other side'. But thats just me. Can't say that I've ever come across Virgin drivers face to face though. I certainly won't judge them by the comments of two of their drivers though!
Anyway, who am I to stand in the middle of a QF bashing thread. Have at it lads. It's been a while. Was getting kind of boring with people bashing VB and Gnadenburg always leaping to their defence!
Jarse, forgot the landing lights bit. SOP for us is nose gear taxi light and runway turn off lights. Should be a total of three all up. The 200s and GE 300s have seperate nose wheel taxi and take off lights, the Rollers have a 'combined' nose light.
I try and remember that your height is right at our light level.Even when I've asked the boss to turn them off to avoid blinding whoever I very occaisionally get some bloke who believes that we're compromising safety by not having ourselves lit up like a Christmas tree. Funnily enough, my standard response of 'I don't know how safe it'll be when he taxis into us because he can't see a damn thing' doesn't normally engender a change of heart from them.
Catch you round.
Hugh, perhaps you're lack of relative speed also means that you're in the airspace where this happens a lot longer than I am
. Seriously though, point taken.Yes it happens (and not just 767 drivers and something I've never denied), yes I've cringed when the boss has asked me to make what I would consider to be a 'dumb' request/ comment but again I'd say that the proportions are probably equal as far as number of aircraft in the air from each company are concerned. I will grant that I'm one of the trees in the forest and so the view may be a little different from where I am however I don't tar any airline just because of the half dozen or so prats who frequent the airways on a continual basis.
Hat, gotta say that I love talking to crews from different airlines. Anything that I can learn about the way they operate could be useful to me at some stage in the future. I'm not too humble to admit that the majority of lessons in aviation have equal application across the range of carriers and I never know when I can pick up some gen from the 'other side'. But thats just me. Can't say that I've ever come across Virgin drivers face to face though. I certainly won't judge them by the comments of two of their drivers though!
Anyway, who am I to stand in the middle of a QF bashing thread. Have at it lads. It's been a while. Was getting kind of boring with people bashing VB and Gnadenburg always leaping to their defence!
Jarse, forgot the landing lights bit. SOP for us is nose gear taxi light and runway turn off lights. Should be a total of three all up. The 200s and GE 300s have seperate nose wheel taxi and take off lights, the Rollers have a 'combined' nose light.
I try and remember that your height is right at our light level.
Even when I've asked the boss to turn them off to avoid blinding whoever I very occaisionally get some bloke who believes that we're compromising safety by not having ourselves lit up like a Christmas tree. Funnily enough, my standard response of 'I don't know how safe it'll be when he taxis into us because he can't see a damn thing' doesn't normally engender a change of heart from them. Catch you round.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
John Tullarmarine I agree whole heartedly. This entire shambles (jaundiced sledging) is descending into farcical terms. Nowhere else in the world have I seen/heard such derision and unprofessionalism from so called "professionals". We here in DJ have our percentage of morons, absolutely no argument there. However generally I think they are very few and far between from what I have witnessed. I am equally sure the majority of QF lads are similar. However..... there does appear to be an "element" in QF that are nothing less than childish with some of the ridiculous banter over the radio. The antagonism of ATC by some is a bl@@dy disgrace to say the least. I have cringed on many ocassions at some of the head wrecking. mind numbing vacuous diatribe released from the mouths of some in this country. Yes I know they (ATC) don't always get right, either do I! A little bit of give and take goes a long way gentlemen.
Everywhere else in the world pilot's just try and get on. Why is it so difficult to do the same here? Those without the experience of flying abroad have little concept of just how stupid we are down here at times. It really is as simple as that. I for one will not descend into this pathetic paradigm of neanderthal thinking. If a QF crew want the wind and ride I'll give it to them accurately. If they are in a hurry and it wont affect my schedule adversely, I will offer them a speed reduction (mine) etc. I want to get away on time and get in on time, just as QF do. I don't engage in any child like antics. I have kids to do that!
Why don't we all try something different when we go to work next. As soon as we experience something that really pi$$es us off, take a deep breath and let it ride. You will get a good deal of satisfaction from your restraint, not to mention a whole lot more respect from your peers! If keeping it in doesn't do it for you, go the the gym and punch the cr@p out of a punching bag. Just please let the rest of us get on with our job as PROFESSIONALS!
Everywhere else in the world pilot's just try and get on. Why is it so difficult to do the same here? Those without the experience of flying abroad have little concept of just how stupid we are down here at times. It really is as simple as that. I for one will not descend into this pathetic paradigm of neanderthal thinking. If a QF crew want the wind and ride I'll give it to them accurately. If they are in a hurry and it wont affect my schedule adversely, I will offer them a speed reduction (mine) etc. I want to get away on time and get in on time, just as QF do. I don't engage in any child like antics. I have kids to do that!
Why don't we all try something different when we go to work next. As soon as we experience something that really pi$$es us off, take a deep breath and let it ride. You will get a good deal of satisfaction from your restraint, not to mention a whole lot more respect from your peers! If keeping it in doesn't do it for you, go the the gym and punch the cr@p out of a punching bag. Just please let the rest of us get on with our job as PROFESSIONALS!
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In Frozen Chunks (Cloud Cuckoo Land)
Age: 17
Posts: 1,521
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lets be honest, there are prats everywhere including QANTAS, Virgin Blue and the rest. What annoys me from first hand experience (and this I am sure is not just QANTAS) is the absolute immaturity, lack of common courtesy and straight out rudeness displayed by some QF skippers on the flight deck.
In many cases absolutely unbelievable. They can behave like little 5 year old johnny down the road and chuck a tantrum over absolutely nothing. A complete disgrace.
:o
In many cases absolutely unbelievable. They can behave like little 5 year old johnny down the road and chuck a tantrum over absolutely nothing. A complete disgrace.
:o
Keg you are terribly confused.
Leaping to the defence of Virgin Blue, are you kidding.
Only once, when QF pilots having a dig at their wages. I pointed out there was an active B Scale at QF which had put pressure on Ansett wages. What choice does a QF S/O have in accepting 737 B Scale? About as much a choice as a young bloke out of GA when he gets his first 737 job at Virgin.
Short memories but QF pilots did not see the point.
And the sanctimonious private message I received from you- " I assume you are a Virgin pilot and real proud of your airline.....blah blah....but we only want your cost base to be up around ours blah blah....so no pressure on our wages".
No, I am not and nor do I have aspirations to fly for Virgin Blue( never say never but expat life all rosey at the moment ).
My beef with QF on the table, justified and corroborated and from my vantage point of a former airline pilot with Ansett.
Professional bad manners such as backchat, dobbing and woeful and disruptive speed management by the 767 group.
I could never be accused of not having a good dig at Virgin.
I must add that Captain Steve Waugh's innings today one of the greatest I have seen. Never lost faith in you Tugga.
Leaping to the defence of Virgin Blue, are you kidding.
Only once, when QF pilots having a dig at their wages. I pointed out there was an active B Scale at QF which had put pressure on Ansett wages. What choice does a QF S/O have in accepting 737 B Scale? About as much a choice as a young bloke out of GA when he gets his first 737 job at Virgin.
Short memories but QF pilots did not see the point.
And the sanctimonious private message I received from you- " I assume you are a Virgin pilot and real proud of your airline.....blah blah....but we only want your cost base to be up around ours blah blah....so no pressure on our wages".
No, I am not and nor do I have aspirations to fly for Virgin Blue( never say never but expat life all rosey at the moment ).
My beef with QF on the table, justified and corroborated and from my vantage point of a former airline pilot with Ansett.
Professional bad manners such as backchat, dobbing and woeful and disruptive speed management by the 767 group.
I could never be accused of not having a good dig at Virgin.
I must add that Captain Steve Waugh's innings today one of the greatest I have seen. Never lost faith in you Tugga.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Living next door to Alan
Posts: 1,521
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airmanship and professional courtesy.....
Thanks for the response Keg.
The total number of lights is usually around 5 (wings and nosewheel). They are very effective, if you know what I mean
These guys don't even switch them off at the holding point. And there can be other A/C on the opposite hold point.
Airmanship and professional courtesy.....
I've even had to politely ask them to switch them off when making an approach to the runway they are holding for, only to get compliance and a flippant remark.....
Airmanship and professional courtesy......
Happy newyear!
The total number of lights is usually around 5 (wings and nosewheel). They are very effective, if you know what I mean
These guys don't even switch them off at the holding point. And there can be other A/C on the opposite hold point.
Airmanship and professional courtesy.....
I've even had to politely ask them to switch them off when making an approach to the runway they are holding for, only to get compliance and a flippant remark.....
Airmanship and professional courtesy......
Happy newyear!