Vb Wants Ya Baby!!
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Well.....not that I'm one to gossip of course....
Apparently four 18 yo FAs were overnighting in Melbourne recently and they got so drunk they all called in sick the next morning.
And then there's the one about the DJ FA who had to ask the Captain to close the door to the aircraft. Apparently it's only a CASA requirement that they know how to open the door.
Mmmmmm......
Apparently four 18 yo FAs were overnighting in Melbourne recently and they got so drunk they all called in sick the next morning.
And then there's the one about the DJ FA who had to ask the Captain to close the door to the aircraft. Apparently it's only a CASA requirement that they know how to open the door.
Mmmmmm......
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I work in the aviation industry, so Im aware of the fact that its perfectly feasable to have a 25 year old with the background required to command a 737. The problem is that the passengers down the back DONT have an aviation background, and know diddly squat about whats involved.
There is a common mental image the public has of what kind of person has the personality and experience to be an airline captain. If you asked them at what age they believed an individual had reached the point where they were settled down, well grounded, and had learnt through experience's both good and bad how to make sober judgement calls, I dont think many would pick 25. Look at it from an uninformed first time flyers point of view rather than from an insiders point of view. More seriously, look at it from an investigative journalists point of view on a slow news day after an incident.
There is a common mental image the public has of what kind of person has the personality and experience to be an airline captain. If you asked them at what age they believed an individual had reached the point where they were settled down, well grounded, and had learnt through experience's both good and bad how to make sober judgement calls, I dont think many would pick 25. Look at it from an uninformed first time flyers point of view rather than from an insiders point of view. More seriously, look at it from an investigative journalists point of view on a slow news day after an incident.
Knave,
'There is a common mental image the public has of what kind of person has the personality and experience to be an airline captain. If you asked them at what age they believed an individual had reached the point where they were settled down, well grounded, and had learnt through experience's both good and bad how to make sober judgement calls, I dont think many would pick 25.'
Is this a known common mental image or your belief of what the common mental image is?
'There is a common mental image the public has of what kind of person has the personality and experience to be an airline captain. If you asked them at what age they believed an individual had reached the point where they were settled down, well grounded, and had learnt through experience's both good and bad how to make sober judgement calls, I dont think many would pick 25.'
Is this a known common mental image or your belief of what the common mental image is?
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I think many pilots see this through rose coloured glasses and greatly inflated egos. In the 1940’s young men 25, flying bombers over Europe etc, were considered old! In the “unmentionable” years around 89/90 unmentionable airlines were shoehorning all sorts of has beens into the left hand seat to get their airlines back in the air.
Airliners did not fall out of the sky because they were being piloted by people of questionable background / age or experience.
If someone meets the standards set by reputable airlines, regardless of age or experience … so be it. The topic “Qantas bombs out in LOSA audit??” should be enough to silence the wingers. Get a life …. I am sure there are many fine GA pilots out there who given half a chance will make fine professional airline pilots, regardless of their perceived level of so called airline experience.
Airliners did not fall out of the sky because they were being piloted by people of questionable background / age or experience.
If someone meets the standards set by reputable airlines, regardless of age or experience … so be it. The topic “Qantas bombs out in LOSA audit??” should be enough to silence the wingers. Get a life …. I am sure there are many fine GA pilots out there who given half a chance will make fine professional airline pilots, regardless of their perceived level of so called airline experience.
Icarus
Can only hope a GA airline aspirant has the foresight to realise he spends 5 or so years in GA, but 20-30 years in airlines! Why erode future conditions?
Wages are pretty low at Freedom Air and as Knackered pointed out experience means nothing to Virgin Blue. So how about Virgin Blue "B" Scale?
Knave
You are alluding to the risk Virgin Blue is taking with training and experience. I think you are right. A serious incident will have them and CASA on the chopping block. The media will crucify them as their training shortcuts are well known amongst "Industry Consultants".
Knackered
You maybe a starry eyed office boy but I hope you realise that every million Mr C and Mr R shave off or maintain off your conditions at Virgin Blue would see about a 3% management bonus of those savings. So if they screw the pilot group a million in conditions they get a nice $30k bonus.
Time will tell on Virgin conditiuons. Corrigan has about 90% of the productivity he needs and the other 10% will come from payrises barely, if at all, keeeping up with inflation.
But many Virgin Blue pilots voting with their feet. One captain accepted last week into Dragonair and another 40 on the books.
Flying out of Brisbane( even if void of culture ) as a domestic airline pilot used to be the pinnacle of an aviation career. Not so with Virgin Blue. Poor conditions and tireless duties making it merely an extension of General Aviation.
Can only hope a GA airline aspirant has the foresight to realise he spends 5 or so years in GA, but 20-30 years in airlines! Why erode future conditions?
Wages are pretty low at Freedom Air and as Knackered pointed out experience means nothing to Virgin Blue. So how about Virgin Blue "B" Scale?
Knave
You are alluding to the risk Virgin Blue is taking with training and experience. I think you are right. A serious incident will have them and CASA on the chopping block. The media will crucify them as their training shortcuts are well known amongst "Industry Consultants".
Knackered
You maybe a starry eyed office boy but I hope you realise that every million Mr C and Mr R shave off or maintain off your conditions at Virgin Blue would see about a 3% management bonus of those savings. So if they screw the pilot group a million in conditions they get a nice $30k bonus.
Time will tell on Virgin conditiuons. Corrigan has about 90% of the productivity he needs and the other 10% will come from payrises barely, if at all, keeeping up with inflation.
But many Virgin Blue pilots voting with their feet. One captain accepted last week into Dragonair and another 40 on the books.
Flying out of Brisbane( even if void of culture ) as a domestic airline pilot used to be the pinnacle of an aviation career. Not so with Virgin Blue. Poor conditions and tireless duties making it merely an extension of General Aviation.
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Amazing.
There were a number of occasions on this thread, that the sheer testostrone fuelled chauvinism tempted me to edit or lock, but it has been too much fun and too interesting to watch.
The Princesses Woomera (27, BSc Hons, Senior Ministerial adviser on the environment, (her partner BSc Hons, BEng Hons, PhD running a NASA project), 24, BCom, Admin of large Electrical Trades Training Org were pressed into service to provide some balance for me.
It was the most I could do to prevent them from getting amongst it, but I am squeamish and hate the site of bleeding bodies and broken bones and they shoot the wounded too
These and many many other 'kids' are doing things at ages, that we would never have dreamed of, perhaps.
But when I think that my father, barely eighteen, was driving Wellingtons and Lancasters over Europe (delivered from the factory BTW by 'girls') and had me on his return in his 21st year, we always do underestimate youth.
Elektra makes a thoughtful and germane post and Gnadenbergs concerns regarding "experience" deserve reflection.
My only comment is to reflect on the introduction of the 'jet' into commercial service.
Might I suggest that there were then, very very few, except maybe the ex B47 or B52 drivers that had any "relevant" experience in "jet" operations.
Gazillion hours thrashing the old piston airliners around in the mid levels was scant preparation for the fundamentally different approach and skill sets required for jets.
May I suggest that the "experience" clock was effectively set to near zero for most, with some not making the transition at all.
Quality training did the job then and will do now.
'D P Davies' had much to say about this and it resulted in his seminal work on the subject.
Gender IMHO has never had anything to do with it, only the social mores of the time. Girls fly combat fighters at younger ages than that argued in this thread, I even found out that there was an all women crew on a Pacific Flight many days after. I couldn't tell.
Girlpower is here to stay dammit.
:edited by the Princesses and Mrs Woomera for politically correct dogma and doctrine.
There were a number of occasions on this thread, that the sheer testostrone fuelled chauvinism tempted me to edit or lock, but it has been too much fun and too interesting to watch.
The Princesses Woomera (27, BSc Hons, Senior Ministerial adviser on the environment, (her partner BSc Hons, BEng Hons, PhD running a NASA project), 24, BCom, Admin of large Electrical Trades Training Org were pressed into service to provide some balance for me.
It was the most I could do to prevent them from getting amongst it, but I am squeamish and hate the site of bleeding bodies and broken bones and they shoot the wounded too
These and many many other 'kids' are doing things at ages, that we would never have dreamed of, perhaps.
But when I think that my father, barely eighteen, was driving Wellingtons and Lancasters over Europe (delivered from the factory BTW by 'girls') and had me on his return in his 21st year, we always do underestimate youth.
Elektra makes a thoughtful and germane post and Gnadenbergs concerns regarding "experience" deserve reflection.
My only comment is to reflect on the introduction of the 'jet' into commercial service.
Might I suggest that there were then, very very few, except maybe the ex B47 or B52 drivers that had any "relevant" experience in "jet" operations.
Gazillion hours thrashing the old piston airliners around in the mid levels was scant preparation for the fundamentally different approach and skill sets required for jets.
May I suggest that the "experience" clock was effectively set to near zero for most, with some not making the transition at all.
Quality training did the job then and will do now.
'D P Davies' had much to say about this and it resulted in his seminal work on the subject.
Gender IMHO has never had anything to do with it, only the social mores of the time. Girls fly combat fighters at younger ages than that argued in this thread, I even found out that there was an all women crew on a Pacific Flight many days after. I couldn't tell.
Girlpower is here to stay dammit.
:edited by the Princesses and Mrs Woomera for politically correct dogma and doctrine.
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ftrplt
My opinions are my own, and I can only offer what I believe to be the public attitude towards airline pilots is at this time. Feel free to put this down to the grumpy ravings of an embittered old man insanely jealous of youth and beauty. I personally have no problem with 25 year old captains, and I am in no position to make a judgement of the training standards at Virgin, not having seen them myself. What I can tell you is that aviation is a lot more than just the operation and administration of a section of the transport industry. It used to be we were taken at our word as professionals, but since the New Zealand Dash 8 court case fiasco I believe we have to consider every possible angle. Time to think about public perception, insurance companies, hostile government entities and espescially a sensationalist media out for scalps.
Sure, during the war 25 year captains were the norm. In the military a lot of responsibility is put on young shoulders and if I was ex military Id probably agree 25 was fine. If I was 24, Id agree 25 was fine, but now Im middle aged and bits keep falling off me when I get out of bed, I wouldnt give a 25 year old the keys to the Kingswood. My concern is perception, not fact.
Before everyone wakes up in the morning and starts ripping bits of flesh off me on the subject of age and experience, I think Ill transfer my concerns to a new thread of their own and leave the Virgin debate in peace. Please feel free to rip into me there.
My opinions are my own, and I can only offer what I believe to be the public attitude towards airline pilots is at this time. Feel free to put this down to the grumpy ravings of an embittered old man insanely jealous of youth and beauty. I personally have no problem with 25 year old captains, and I am in no position to make a judgement of the training standards at Virgin, not having seen them myself. What I can tell you is that aviation is a lot more than just the operation and administration of a section of the transport industry. It used to be we were taken at our word as professionals, but since the New Zealand Dash 8 court case fiasco I believe we have to consider every possible angle. Time to think about public perception, insurance companies, hostile government entities and espescially a sensationalist media out for scalps.
Sure, during the war 25 year captains were the norm. In the military a lot of responsibility is put on young shoulders and if I was ex military Id probably agree 25 was fine. If I was 24, Id agree 25 was fine, but now Im middle aged and bits keep falling off me when I get out of bed, I wouldnt give a 25 year old the keys to the Kingswood. My concern is perception, not fact.
Before everyone wakes up in the morning and starts ripping bits of flesh off me on the subject of age and experience, I think Ill transfer my concerns to a new thread of their own and leave the Virgin debate in peace. Please feel free to rip into me there.
Knave,
not trying to rip shreds old man, sounds like you cant afford to lose too many more anyway!
I am starting to get old enough to see how perceptions change as you get older, but still have some way to go! I can see where you are coming from.
I still dont believe that someones progression through the ranks should be affected by a belief of what the majority public perception is; its the airlines responsibility to ensure that its assessment system and training department are sufficiently robust to deal with the investigative journalist you seem to be concerned about.
I dont know anything about the Dash 8 fiasco you mention.
not trying to rip shreds old man, sounds like you cant afford to lose too many more anyway!
I am starting to get old enough to see how perceptions change as you get older, but still have some way to go! I can see where you are coming from.
I still dont believe that someones progression through the ranks should be affected by a belief of what the majority public perception is; its the airlines responsibility to ensure that its assessment system and training department are sufficiently robust to deal with the investigative journalist you seem to be concerned about.
I dont know anything about the Dash 8 fiasco you mention.
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Gnadenburg
The salary and conditions offered by airlines like VB and Freedom are here to stay. Go back and read Australian history of the late 80’s or the US from the late 70’s.
Commercial aviation up until then was a proud profession but the likes of Frank Lorenzo destroyed the unity of pilots by dividing them and playing on the selfish instincts of some.
Read some books like “Grounded – Frank Lorenzo and the Destruction of Eastern Airlines” or look at the following link.
http://www.pbs.org/kcet/chasingthesu.../florenzo.html
Abeles and his lap dog in Canberra later used similar tactics to divide the Australian profession. What you have left, condition wise, is now a way of life and a direct legacy of recent history.
There is no point whining about conditions in VB or other airlines, it was ALL of our own (pilots) doing.
If history repeats itself, things may go downhill even further.
The salary and conditions offered by airlines like VB and Freedom are here to stay. Go back and read Australian history of the late 80’s or the US from the late 70’s.
Commercial aviation up until then was a proud profession but the likes of Frank Lorenzo destroyed the unity of pilots by dividing them and playing on the selfish instincts of some.
Read some books like “Grounded – Frank Lorenzo and the Destruction of Eastern Airlines” or look at the following link.
http://www.pbs.org/kcet/chasingthesu.../florenzo.html
Abeles and his lap dog in Canberra later used similar tactics to divide the Australian profession. What you have left, condition wise, is now a way of life and a direct legacy of recent history.
There is no point whining about conditions in VB or other airlines, it was ALL of our own (pilots) doing.
If history repeats itself, things may go downhill even further.
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My reference to the Ansett NZ Dash 8 case was prompted by my own views on media treatment of the pilot community. Thats a subject deserving of a posting all of its own.. not that many years ago news was about reporting the facts and granting people the benefit of the doubt. The NZ police did their best to alter the image of pilots from victims to perps.
My nightmare scenario is 'A Current Affair' looking for a ratings buster exclusive after an incident. You can see the way it would go. The authorities refuse to give up anything juicy because the crash is under investigation, the company likewise. The reporter has a limited amount of time to get something to fill in time between the Fatbuster ads and the nappy commercial. The captain was 25, the F/O 23, and the cabin crew around 18 and 19. I very well may be paranoid. I agree that companies shouldnt let these kinds of scenarios affect their operations, but they should prepare to deal with them if they arise.
My nightmare scenario is 'A Current Affair' looking for a ratings buster exclusive after an incident. You can see the way it would go. The authorities refuse to give up anything juicy because the crash is under investigation, the company likewise. The reporter has a limited amount of time to get something to fill in time between the Fatbuster ads and the nappy commercial. The captain was 25, the F/O 23, and the cabin crew around 18 and 19. I very well may be paranoid. I agree that companies shouldnt let these kinds of scenarios affect their operations, but they should prepare to deal with them if they arise.
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Ye're "Knave" wholeheartedly agree with you, I really don't care what age is in the LHS but I have found over the years the difference is that when the "sh....t" hits the proverbial:
THEY WANT TO DO SOMETHING - ANYTHING
When I was a junior F/O one of Woomeras Dads mates told me when IT does happen, first item of recall "do nothing" THINK
Over almost 30yrs of "heavies" that advice has held me in very good stead. It worries me the 25 yr old "we gotta do something attitude"
THEY WANT TO DO SOMETHING - ANYTHING
When I was a junior F/O one of Woomeras Dads mates told me when IT does happen, first item of recall "do nothing" THINK
Over almost 30yrs of "heavies" that advice has held me in very good stead. It worries me the 25 yr old "we gotta do something attitude"
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leftfrontside
and
I agree wholeheartedly.
However IMHO the problem is that the 25 yr olds nowadays are at once much better and much worse educated than we were.
I have been humbled and many times amazed by my children and their peer groups "maturity" and "decision making and handling processes" in real world "situations".
I have despaired and been many times totally frustrated by their lack of knowledge of so many things that you and I would reckon they should know. Son (20) and his mates can take it to anyone with computer and mind boggling technical smarts, but and this includes the aforementioned daughters "PhD rocket scientist"
partner, would be hard pressed to show you where the dipstick is and how the engine works, that's assuming that they could find the bonnet latch.
And yeah, Dad and his mates did not have the luxury of gauranteed EFATO performance for example, that has been brought to us by the evolution of the design and certification process and such a crisis was generally a real crisis that demanded rapid resolution after the "correct" diagnosis to survive ......yup indeed, do nothing, thimk, identify, confirm and resolve in that order was a hard learnt lesson. But then Dad and his mates also knew how to find the dipstick in their cars.
We have been fortunate that the certification process and computers have all but removed the necessity for "normal" critical decisions or actions to be made "instinctively" or "instantly" and the youngsters know and are trained for that.
Heavens to Murgatroyd; bubble sextant, drift sight, VAR, doppler nav, Decca chains, Loran even VLF/Omega............what the?
You mean you didn't have an FMC in your Lancaster pop.?
So I don't think it is the "operation" of the aircraft that is the problem nowadays, it is dealing with the problems that Mother Nature throws up at random, that's something that only "experience", (if I may plagiarise and edit your quote,)
can provide:
They are way better educated than Pop and ourselves and will be even more so in the future, as they won't even get on the " list", without a degree of some sort.
Whether this will be a good thing is moot, but until they can come up with a better "filter" it will most probably be the go.
So here we have bright motivated and educated kids sitting next to what they most probably see as eccentric old duffers, (my son and I would not be good together at least not for my ego anyway), who have much to teach them, notwithstanding that they already "know" everything.
The answer to that IMHO is our problem not theirs.
How do we pick our way through that lot and keep em motivated without stifling their progress.?????? 
Oh and something I nearly forgot to ask.
Do we want the brightest and the best in the front office of our birds.?
If we do, then we are going to have to make it interesting, challenging and attractive because there are more "career" options out there than I could have dreamed possible ALL competing for the same kids.
Or will the system as we know it, weed em out and leave us with the rest.?
I and many others my age (mid 50's), have already had several separate careers and the kids can expect at least 2 to 3 quite separate careers in their longer working lifetime which is going towards their late seventies.
Why should they not have a "career" in airlines to say 35-40 and go off and do something else.?
"do nothing" THINK
It worries me the 25 yr old "we gotta do something attitude"
However IMHO the problem is that the 25 yr olds nowadays are at once much better and much worse educated than we were.
I have been humbled and many times amazed by my children and their peer groups "maturity" and "decision making and handling processes" in real world "situations".
I have despaired and been many times totally frustrated by their lack of knowledge of so many things that you and I would reckon they should know. Son (20) and his mates can take it to anyone with computer and mind boggling technical smarts, but and this includes the aforementioned daughters "PhD rocket scientist"
partner, would be hard pressed to show you where the dipstick is and how the engine works, that's assuming that they could find the bonnet latch.
And yeah, Dad and his mates did not have the luxury of gauranteed EFATO performance for example, that has been brought to us by the evolution of the design and certification process and such a crisis was generally a real crisis that demanded rapid resolution after the "correct" diagnosis to survive ......yup indeed, do nothing, thimk,
identify, confirm and resolve in that order was a hard learnt lesson. But then Dad and his mates also knew how to find the dipstick in their cars. We have been fortunate that the certification process and computers have all but removed the necessity for "normal" critical decisions or actions to be made "instinctively" or "instantly" and the youngsters know and are trained for that.
Heavens to Murgatroyd; bubble sextant, drift sight, VAR, doppler nav, Decca chains, Loran even VLF/Omega............what the?
You mean you didn't have an FMC in your Lancaster pop.?
So I don't think it is the "operation" of the aircraft that is the problem nowadays, it is dealing with the problems that Mother Nature throws up at random, that's something that only "experience", (if I may plagiarise and edit your quote,)
(the difference when the "sh....t" hits the proverbial),
They are way better educated than Pop and ourselves and will be even more so in the future, as they won't even get on the " list", without a degree of some sort.
Whether this will be a good thing is moot, but until they can come up with a better "filter" it will most probably be the go.
So here we have bright motivated and educated kids sitting next to what they most probably see as eccentric old duffers, (my son and I would not be good together at least not for my ego anyway), who have much to teach them, notwithstanding that they already "know" everything.
The answer to that IMHO is our problem not theirs.
How do we pick our way through that lot and keep em motivated without stifling their progress.??????
Oh and something I nearly forgot to ask.
Do we want the brightest and the best in the front office of our birds.?
If we do, then we are going to have to make it interesting, challenging and attractive because there are more "career" options out there than I could have dreamed possible ALL competing for the same kids.
Or will the system as we know it, weed em out and leave us with the rest.?
I and many others my age (mid 50's), have already had several separate careers and the kids can expect at least 2 to 3 quite separate careers in their longer working lifetime which is going towards their late seventies.
Why should they not have a "career" in airlines to say 35-40 and go off and do something else.?
Last edited by Woomera; 10th Jan 2003 at 00:45.
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WW2 pilots !!??, do we really want the safety record of world war 2 pilots ( and I'm not including getting shot down ).
Sure, not too many lancs were invoved in CFIT or loss of orientation accidents, but you are unlikely to run into the ground at 25000'
The comparison of ww2 pilots to todays commercial/airline pilot is at best ridiculous, and remember, they did'nt send teenagers up in bombers and fighters because of an excess of experienced pilots did they?? it's called necessity.
Sure, not too many lancs were invoved in CFIT or loss of orientation accidents, but you are unlikely to run into the ground at 25000'
The comparison of ww2 pilots to todays commercial/airline pilot is at best ridiculous, and remember, they did'nt send teenagers up in bombers and fighters because of an excess of experienced pilots did they?? it's called necessity.
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I'm with stupid
Whoa there big fella!.
There's some real tender egos round here, I have to keep reminding myself that there are pilots around here.
I don't think Woomera was comparing WW2 pilots to todays commercial/airline pilots.
If you read carefully, what he/she said, I think you will find that he/she was responding to leftfrontseats comment
as being the early post war airline Captains who were almost exclusively those that survived WW2.
NOT comparing WW2 with airlines.
If you haven't already done so I can recommend you should read "Fate is the Hunter" by Ernie Gann. It's all explained in there.
As a matter of interest most of the post WW2 airliners were in any event derivatives of the WW2 bombers and transports.
Whoa there big fella!.
There's some real tender egos round here, I have to keep reminding myself that there are pilots around here.
I don't think Woomera was comparing WW2 pilots to todays commercial/airline pilots.
If you read carefully, what he/she said, I think you will find that he/she was responding to leftfrontseats comment
When I was a junior F/O one of Woomeras Dads mates told me when IT does happen, first item of recall "do nothing" THINK
NOT comparing WW2 with airlines.
If you haven't already done so I can recommend you should read "Fate is the Hunter" by Ernie Gann. It's all explained in there.
As a matter of interest most of the post WW2 airliners were in any event derivatives of the WW2 bombers and transports.
Excellent post Woomera, summed up the differences between the young of today, andyesterday better than I ever could.
Some things to ponder.
From CNN,
Pilot and nav on an F15 heading to the Gulf this week, 21 and 23.
KC10 crew intervied last week, captain 23. FO 22. Boom operator 21, crew chief 27.
Avarage age of the guys operating on the decks of the US aircraft carriers, 19.
The surgeon who implanted a kidney in my mum a few years back, 26.
I think it more the individual and the system they operate in rather than saying someone a age x has this much maturity.
Some things to ponder.
From CNN,
Pilot and nav on an F15 heading to the Gulf this week, 21 and 23.
KC10 crew intervied last week, captain 23. FO 22. Boom operator 21, crew chief 27.
Avarage age of the guys operating on the decks of the US aircraft carriers, 19.
The surgeon who implanted a kidney in my mum a few years back, 26.
I think it more the individual and the system they operate in rather than saying someone a age x has this much maturity.
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well done ladies
Congrats to young ladies
Boyz ~ Isn't it more pleasant to sit across and make pleasant conversation with a well kept young female pilot during the long days tearing up and down the east coast in the flying tampons.
Q: Whats min age for a F/A ~ someone made reference to four 18 year old F/A ~ surely to young.
and again
Congrats to young ladies
Boyz ~ Isn't it more pleasant to sit across and make pleasant conversation with a well kept young female pilot during the long days tearing up and down the east coast in the flying tampons.
Q: Whats min age for a F/A ~ someone made reference to four 18 year old F/A ~ surely to young.
and again
Congrats to young ladies
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Just back after 4 days on the road, and only the quick infrequent glimpse at PPRuNe...feeding the addiction.
Whilst away, I had been thinking about this thread, and some of the issues raised - no the usual, "[They SHOULD have picked me instead of him/her!" - but the age vs age, however in a slightly different context.
Most - but not ALL - humans can be taught skills, and I daresay that by starting at an early age, it would be possible to have a 12 year old (male or female) out-performing our "too young" 21 y.o's
But that has been argued to death.
The issue I would like to raise, goes back to the WW2 pilots, and those who immediately succeeded them as airline pilots. At the periods of time in which they received their commands at a relatively early age, it was because of a shortage of pilots - in other words a NECESSITY, to allow the burgeoning airline companies to grow with the new demands for their services.
There is NO such shortage today.
It was pretty much the "I'm the CAPTAIN" personality that evolved within the airlines during this era (ala 411A), that was eventually recognised as being an often common CAUSE of incidents and accidents, and eventually resulting in the "discovery" of CRM.
Personal experience of one of these individuals is a recollection of a quip he made to me following a CRM course, "I don't need to waste my time doing all that guff - I already knew it before they started!!". He was one guy who could have done 1,000 CRM courses, and he would still remain THE CAPTAIN, unwilling to consider any opinions other than His.
So the question is not one of whether he or she is too young for the lhs, but whether the time spent in the rhs has been long enough to acquire the psychological and "people-management" skills required for a long, long career in the lhs. Because ultimately, the overall safety of each flight and its payload will depend upon how well (or otherwise) the crew are able to act as a TEAM.
Whilst away, I had been thinking about this thread, and some of the issues raised - no the usual, "[They SHOULD have picked me instead of him/her!" - but the age vs age, however in a slightly different context.
Most - but not ALL - humans can be taught skills, and I daresay that by starting at an early age, it would be possible to have a 12 year old (male or female) out-performing our "too young" 21 y.o's
But that has been argued to death.
The issue I would like to raise, goes back to the WW2 pilots, and those who immediately succeeded them as airline pilots. At the periods of time in which they received their commands at a relatively early age, it was because of a shortage of pilots - in other words a NECESSITY, to allow the burgeoning airline companies to grow with the new demands for their services.
There is NO such shortage today.
It was pretty much the "I'm the CAPTAIN" personality that evolved within the airlines during this era (ala 411A), that was eventually recognised as being an often common CAUSE of incidents and accidents, and eventually resulting in the "discovery" of CRM.
Personal experience of one of these individuals is a recollection of a quip he made to me following a CRM course, "I don't need to waste my time doing all that guff - I already knew it before they started!!". He was one guy who could have done 1,000 CRM courses, and he would still remain THE CAPTAIN, unwilling to consider any opinions other than His.
So the question is not one of whether he or she is too young for the lhs, but whether the time spent in the rhs has been long enough to acquire the psychological and "people-management" skills required for a long, long career in the lhs. Because ultimately, the overall safety of each flight and its payload will depend upon how well (or otherwise) the crew are able to act as a TEAM.
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Woomera,
Fabulous that your female relatives / spouses / whatever have degrees and are high achievers.
I can see how, not being airline pilots, they would misinterpret the heart of the issue in this thread.
Its about experience.
Not about age, sex or how you look.
Airline flying requires experience to develop decision making methodologies which are valid, safe and commerically efficient for all circumstances likely to be encountered in the operating environment.
You can train and employ pilots without this experience, but you open up the holes in Prof Reasons piece of 'liveware' swiss cheese - you are increasing your exposure to risk.
If this wasnt the case, companies would not have minimum requirements, both internal and external.
The entire industry knows that VB is sailing close to the wind in this area. The chief pilot is prepared to accept this because in his judgement the operating environment in Aust is benign enough to get away with it.
I am not making comment on the enthusiasm or manipulative proficiency of the young ladies concerned, but there is no subject for experience and that takes time
FS
Fabulous that your female relatives / spouses / whatever have degrees and are high achievers.
I can see how, not being airline pilots, they would misinterpret the heart of the issue in this thread.
Its about experience.
Not about age, sex or how you look.
Airline flying requires experience to develop decision making methodologies which are valid, safe and commerically efficient for all circumstances likely to be encountered in the operating environment.
You can train and employ pilots without this experience, but you open up the holes in Prof Reasons piece of 'liveware' swiss cheese - you are increasing your exposure to risk.
If this wasnt the case, companies would not have minimum requirements, both internal and external.
The entire industry knows that VB is sailing close to the wind in this area. The chief pilot is prepared to accept this because in his judgement the operating environment in Aust is benign enough to get away with it.
I am not making comment on the enthusiasm or manipulative proficiency of the young ladies concerned, but there is no subject for experience and that takes time
FS
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Airline flying requires experience to develop decision making methodologies which are valid, safe and commerically efficient for all circumstances likely to be encountered in the operating environment.
Ask the crew of the Concorde crash a few years ago......ask the crew of the B1900 accident a couple of days ago.
Most - hopefully.
ALL - if only that were possible.
The entire industry knows that VB is sailing close to the wind in this area. The chief pilot is prepared to accept this because in his judgement the operating environment in Aust is benign enough to get away with it.
Last edited by Kaptin M; 11th Jan 2003 at 06:53.