Qantas DOES buy 1/4 of ANZ!!
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I've noticed you like a good "Whinge" 
You and I both know that VB will fly the Tasman, they are just going to milk this QF/AirNZ deal for all it's worth to get the best deal for themselves, low terminal rents, baggage handling, Ldg fees, maybe try and force us to close or sell freedom, etc,etc so there wont be a monopoly. So you can relax old fella.
Secretly VB are probably happy about it as they can use it to there advantage. Watch for the horse trading!
You and I both know that VB will fly the Tasman, they are just going to milk this QF/AirNZ deal for all it's worth to get the best deal for themselves, low terminal rents, baggage handling, Ldg fees, maybe try and force us to close or sell freedom, etc,etc so there wont be a monopoly. So you can relax old fella.
Secretly
VB are probably happy about it as they can use it to there advantage. Watch for the horse trading!
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Barberspole
If Air NZ are so cheap, efficient and profitable then why do they want this deal at all?
Conversely, if Qantas are so inefficent and expensive then why are they posting record profits?
In fact why are Air NZ not going head to head with Qantas using the competitive advantage you claim they have?
Maybe you can rush into Head office and tell Ralph you found the secret formula for success and they can call off the whole Qantas deal.
I suggest you have a good look at the labour agreements on both sides of the Tasman and factor in all labour cost and productivity elements before you make sweeping statements.
If Air NZ are so cheap, efficient and profitable then why do they want this deal at all?
Conversely, if Qantas are so inefficent and expensive then why are they posting record profits?
In fact why are Air NZ not going head to head with Qantas using the competitive advantage you claim they have?
Maybe you can rush into Head office and tell Ralph you found the secret formula for success and they can call off the whole Qantas deal.
I suggest you have a good look at the labour agreements on both sides of the Tasman and factor in all labour cost and productivity elements before you make sweeping statements.
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BPAs the spokes person for ANZ you said
Freedom were on the scene way before VB to chase off Kiwi Air then kept around to ward off new players such as VB.
I read back thru a lot of your posts old fella and wonder which pedestal you see yourself on. Lets hope your cockpit doesn't run the same way..
well we did set freedom up to offer low cost airfares to the public and also to make it harder for VB to enter the market here
I read back thru a lot of your posts old fella and wonder which pedestal you see yourself on. Lets hope your cockpit doesn't run the same way..
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SB and your point is........?
I don't have a pedestal just some facts/opinions.
LJ It's "Qantas" thats been pushing hard for this deal, personally I hope it dosn't go thru, but I'm just another part number in the system.
I don't have a pedestal just some facts/opinions.
LJ It's "Qantas" thats been pushing hard for this deal, personally I hope it dosn't go thru, but I'm just another part number in the system.
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Sat "Sydney Morning Herald" 7/12/02
Air NZ at risk without Qantas alliance
By Mark Todd
December 7 2002
Air New Zealand's managing director, Ralph Norris, warned his carrier could become all but irrelevant in the global aviation industry if regulators blocked a proposed $520 million alliance with Qantas.
The collapse of the deal would leave Air New Zealand exposed to a brutally competitive market and could within a few years spell the end of its days as an international carrier. Mr Norris said that, by itself, Air New Zealand was a "minnow".
"Our time horizon has to be at least three to five years out," Mr Norris told an American Chamber of Commerce meeting in Wellington. "Without this alliance there is a high probability that within that time frame, Air New Zealand could be reduced to a domestic airline."
Under that stark scenario, Air New Zealand could be reduced to three key routes - Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch - which together are about a quarter the size of Sydney-Melbourne.
"Air New Zealand would be very isolated. They'd have a small market, less than 2 million passenger movements a year," said Peter Harbison, managing director of the Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation.
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Mr Norris went on to note the New Zealand domestic market is too small to support two-full service domestic airlines. And Air New Zealand expected a no-frills competitor to launch a service within three years.
Even if the planned Qantas-Air New Zealand alliance does proceed, the pair would account for less than 4 per cent of the world's commercial airline activity. Mr Norris also assured his New Zealand audience that the deal in no way represented a "Qantas takeover".
The airlines are due on Monday to submit economic arguments in favour of their partnership to the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission and New Zealand Commerce Commission. To win approval, Qantas and Air New Zealand will need to show that the benefits from the deal outweigh a decrease in competition in the trans-Tasman market.
The airlines have promised economic benefits to Australia of more than $680 million over five years and about $NZ1 billion for New Zealand.
Under the deal, Qantas would acquire a 22.5 per cent stake in Air Zealand. The carriers would consolidate their trans-Tasman services - representing 10 per cent of Qantas's operations - and enter into a comprehensive codesharing agreement.
Meanwhile, Qantas took delivery yesterday in Toulouse, France, of its first Airbus aircraft. The Airbus A330-200 is one of 13 A330s Qantas will add to its fleet over the next three years as part of the airline's comprehensive fleet upgrade.
Qantas shares eased 5c to $3.66 as Salomon Smith Barney reduced its net profit estimate for the airline in 2002-03 by 5.3 per cent and 2.8 per cent for the year after. Nevertheless, SSB kept an "outperform" rating on Qantas and a valuation of $5.20 without the Air NZ alliance.
Air NZ at risk without Qantas alliance
By Mark Todd
December 7 2002
Air New Zealand's managing director, Ralph Norris, warned his carrier could become all but irrelevant in the global aviation industry if regulators blocked a proposed $520 million alliance with Qantas.
The collapse of the deal would leave Air New Zealand exposed to a brutally competitive market and could within a few years spell the end of its days as an international carrier. Mr Norris said that, by itself, Air New Zealand was a "minnow".
"Our time horizon has to be at least three to five years out," Mr Norris told an American Chamber of Commerce meeting in Wellington. "Without this alliance there is a high probability that within that time frame, Air New Zealand could be reduced to a domestic airline."
Under that stark scenario, Air New Zealand could be reduced to three key routes - Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch - which together are about a quarter the size of Sydney-Melbourne.
"Air New Zealand would be very isolated. They'd have a small market, less than 2 million passenger movements a year," said Peter Harbison, managing director of the Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation.
advertisement
Mr Norris went on to note the New Zealand domestic market is too small to support two-full service domestic airlines. And Air New Zealand expected a no-frills competitor to launch a service within three years.
Even if the planned Qantas-Air New Zealand alliance does proceed, the pair would account for less than 4 per cent of the world's commercial airline activity. Mr Norris also assured his New Zealand audience that the deal in no way represented a "Qantas takeover".
The airlines are due on Monday to submit economic arguments in favour of their partnership to the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission and New Zealand Commerce Commission. To win approval, Qantas and Air New Zealand will need to show that the benefits from the deal outweigh a decrease in competition in the trans-Tasman market.
The airlines have promised economic benefits to Australia of more than $680 million over five years and about $NZ1 billion for New Zealand.
Under the deal, Qantas would acquire a 22.5 per cent stake in Air Zealand. The carriers would consolidate their trans-Tasman services - representing 10 per cent of Qantas's operations - and enter into a comprehensive codesharing agreement.
Meanwhile, Qantas took delivery yesterday in Toulouse, France, of its first Airbus aircraft. The Airbus A330-200 is one of 13 A330s Qantas will add to its fleet over the next three years as part of the airline's comprehensive fleet upgrade.
Qantas shares eased 5c to $3.66 as Salomon Smith Barney reduced its net profit estimate for the airline in 2002-03 by 5.3 per cent and 2.8 per cent for the year after. Nevertheless, SSB kept an "outperform" rating on Qantas and a valuation of $5.20 without the Air NZ alliance.
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I notice John Palmer is telling everybody that will listen that if the QF takeover is knocked on the head that it will probably mean the end for AirNZ. There is nothing worse than listening to a Kiwi squeal like a stuffed pig
If it's the end for AirNZ then so be it. Who cares? The gap will be filled quickly. Look what happened in Australia. Let the market dictate who survives. If that lemon can't survive then good riddance to them.
If it's the end for AirNZ then so be it. Who cares? The gap will be filled quickly. Look what happened in Australia. Let the market dictate who survives. If that lemon can't survive then good riddance to them.
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ABC News online
Mon, Dec 9 2002 5:29 PM AEDT
NZ carrier says it's Qantas deal or air war
Air New Zealand and Qantas have appealed to competition authorities on both sides of the Tasman to allow a planned alliance to go ahead.
The airlines need to convince regulators the Qantas buy-in will be good for consumers.
In a submission to New Zealand's Commerce Commission, Air New Zealand argues the alliance would create 200 new jobs in the airline and at least 2500 extra jobs in the country's tourism industry.
Airline chairman John Palmer has admitted Air New Zealand wants Qantas to buy a 22.5 per cent stake to ensure its long-term survival.
Mr Palmer says Qantas would engage in a war of attrition if the two airlines are not allowed to form an alliance.
Mr Palmer says Air New Zealand does not have the financial resources to fight such a battle.
ABC News Online
==========================================
AFX News
Qantas to resist Singapore "open skies" agreement
Qantas Airways Ltd is likely to resist efforts by the Federal government to reach an "open skies" agreement with Singapore as a trade-off for Qantas' proposed 550 million nzd equity alliance with Air New Zealand Ltd, the Australian Financial Review reported citing unidentifed Qantas sources.
Government officials are to travel to Singapore this month to negotiate liberalising the bilateral agreement on air services rights between the two countries but Qantas has serious reservations about a deal in the near term, believing it would not benefit as much from it as Singapore Airlines.
Singapore has open skies agreements with New Zealand and the US, with a similar deal with Australia possibly enabling it to fly direct between Australia and the US in competition with Qantas.
Qantas is concerned that because it faces constraints on the capacity it can operate to ports such as Paris, its ability to take advantage of reciprocal rights to fly beyond Singapore will be limited.
© AFX News
============================================
ABC News Online
Mon, Dec 9 2002 8:04 PM AEDT
Air NZ admits Qantas deal 'anti-competitive'
Air New Zealand has admitted to the country's Commerce Commission that its proposed alliance merger with Qantas is anti-competitive, but argues the deal is necessary for its survival.
Qantas and Air New Zealand have now begun the difficult task of convincing regulators the proposed 22.5 per cent buy-in will be good for consumers.
In a submission to the Commerce Commission the airlines argue although the deal will lessen competition, it will also bring a net benefit to both countries of hundreds of millions of dollars.
The airlines have also conceded the deal could lead to fare increases within New Zealand and on trans-Tasman flights.
But Air New Zealand has told the commission it cannot afford to refuse the $500 million offer from Qantas.
Its chairman John Palmer says the company could be wiped out if the two companies are not allowed to form an alliance.
The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission says the proposal is very complex and it will take some months to assess whether the benefits to the travelling public outweigh the costs.
Virgin
The airlines told the regulators the alliance would encourage Virgin Blue to fly the trans-Tasman route if it has only one competitor.
Executives from Virgin Blue have met with New Zealand officials to argue against the alliance.
Virgin's head of commercial David Huttner says consumers will lose if the deal goes ahead.
"It's certainly not good for the travelling public, they're going to stitch up a monopoly where you have Air New Zealand's domestic dominance and Qantas's very deep pocket to go out and spend and stitch up the Tasman for years to come," he said.
Mon, Dec 9 2002 5:29 PM AEDT
NZ carrier says it's Qantas deal or air war
Air New Zealand and Qantas have appealed to competition authorities on both sides of the Tasman to allow a planned alliance to go ahead.
The airlines need to convince regulators the Qantas buy-in will be good for consumers.
In a submission to New Zealand's Commerce Commission, Air New Zealand argues the alliance would create 200 new jobs in the airline and at least 2500 extra jobs in the country's tourism industry.
Airline chairman John Palmer has admitted Air New Zealand wants Qantas to buy a 22.5 per cent stake to ensure its long-term survival.
Mr Palmer says Qantas would engage in a war of attrition if the two airlines are not allowed to form an alliance.
Mr Palmer says Air New Zealand does not have the financial resources to fight such a battle.
ABC News Online
==========================================
AFX News
Qantas to resist Singapore "open skies" agreement
Qantas Airways Ltd is likely to resist efforts by the Federal government to reach an "open skies" agreement with Singapore as a trade-off for Qantas' proposed 550 million nzd equity alliance with Air New Zealand Ltd, the Australian Financial Review reported citing unidentifed Qantas sources.
Government officials are to travel to Singapore this month to negotiate liberalising the bilateral agreement on air services rights between the two countries but Qantas has serious reservations about a deal in the near term, believing it would not benefit as much from it as Singapore Airlines.
Singapore has open skies agreements with New Zealand and the US, with a similar deal with Australia possibly enabling it to fly direct between Australia and the US in competition with Qantas.
Qantas is concerned that because it faces constraints on the capacity it can operate to ports such as Paris, its ability to take advantage of reciprocal rights to fly beyond Singapore will be limited.
© AFX News
============================================
ABC News Online
Mon, Dec 9 2002 8:04 PM AEDT
Air NZ admits Qantas deal 'anti-competitive'
Air New Zealand has admitted to the country's Commerce Commission that its proposed alliance merger with Qantas is anti-competitive, but argues the deal is necessary for its survival.
Qantas and Air New Zealand have now begun the difficult task of convincing regulators the proposed 22.5 per cent buy-in will be good for consumers.
In a submission to the Commerce Commission the airlines argue although the deal will lessen competition, it will also bring a net benefit to both countries of hundreds of millions of dollars.
The airlines have also conceded the deal could lead to fare increases within New Zealand and on trans-Tasman flights.
But Air New Zealand has told the commission it cannot afford to refuse the $500 million offer from Qantas.
Its chairman John Palmer says the company could be wiped out if the two companies are not allowed to form an alliance.
The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission says the proposal is very complex and it will take some months to assess whether the benefits to the travelling public outweigh the costs.
Virgin
The airlines told the regulators the alliance would encourage Virgin Blue to fly the trans-Tasman route if it has only one competitor.
Executives from Virgin Blue have met with New Zealand officials to argue against the alliance.
Virgin's head of commercial David Huttner says consumers will lose if the deal goes ahead.
"It's certainly not good for the travelling public, they're going to stitch up a monopoly where you have Air New Zealand's domestic dominance and Qantas's very deep pocket to go out and spend and stitch up the Tasman for years to come," he said.
Last edited by Wirraway; 9th Dec 2002 at 08:10.
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.........The airlines have also conceded the deal could lead to fare increases within New Zealand and on trans-Tasman flights. But Air New Zealand has told the commission it cannot afford to refuse the $500 million offer from Qantas. Its chairman John Palmer says the company could be wiped out if the two companies are not allowed to form an alliance.
If the merger doesn't go ahead - The Kiwi taxpayer will continue to support the airline and even fund a 'war of attrition'.
Can Qantas outspend the NZ government?. Quite possible given their current Warchest.
A government supported AirNZ could well become the 'Olympic Airlines' of the South Pacific.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Seems as though New Zealand, and Air New Zealand, are being RELUCTANTLY FORCED into this deal.
According to what I heard on a BBC "Business Report", this morning, New Zealand's Prime Minister - Helen Clark - was reported as:
"An angry New Zealand Prime Minister, Helen Clark, stated that up to 25% of national carrier, Air New Zealand, could be taken over by QANTAS, the Australian monolith.
One of the jewels of the Pacific, Air New Zealand was a likely candidate to be picked up for its on-carriage rights" [My interpretation].
Perhaps it's STILL a game of chess with SINGAPORE AIRLINES - QANTAS thinking that by holding the QF/TE cards they hold ALL the Aces.
Enter Air Nauru!!
The Dark Horse - who ALSO holds many of the destinations desired by SQ!
According to what I heard on a BBC "Business Report", this morning, New Zealand's Prime Minister - Helen Clark - was reported as:
"An angry New Zealand Prime Minister, Helen Clark, stated that up to 25% of national carrier, Air New Zealand, could be taken over by QANTAS, the Australian monolith.
One of the jewels of the Pacific, Air New Zealand was a likely candidate to be picked up for its on-carriage rights" [My interpretation].
Perhaps it's STILL a game of chess with SINGAPORE AIRLINES - QANTAS thinking that by holding the QF/TE cards they hold ALL the Aces.
Enter Air Nauru!!
The Dark Horse - who ALSO holds many of the destinations desired by SQ!
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It will be interesting to see what happens when G. W. Bush starts his "revive the US economy" war. Price of fuel up, upset Arabs blowing things up and spreading small pox through aircraft air conditioning systems.
I think it is better for these two airlines to join forces and the governments on boths sides of the Tasman should tell Branson to get lost. These low cost operations are a death sentence for any normal airline.
I think it is better for these two airlines to join forces and the governments on boths sides of the Tasman should tell Branson to get lost. These low cost operations are a death sentence for any normal airline.
