Greasing the ATC wheel, QF-style
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Who should be shouting the drinks?
In just about any other industry, the client is the one who receives a 'token' for their custom during the year. Why is it that some ATCs 'expect' to receive gifts from our clients - who already pay our salaries? Sounds embarrassingly like the old 'public service' mentality. (Anyone remember the six-pack we used to leave for the garbo?)
I am all for increased social interaction between all parts of the industry, but rather than complain about how tight-fisted the next bloke is, how about looking at our own organisation?
For example: Until recently, team leaders had a small budget to organise 'team days' for their staff. How about arranging to meet with QF, DJ etc. and buying them a drink? You may be surprised.
I am all for increased social interaction between all parts of the industry, but rather than complain about how tight-fisted the next bloke is, how about looking at our own organisation?
For example: Until recently, team leaders had a small budget to organise 'team days' for their staff. How about arranging to meet with QF, DJ etc. and buying them a drink? You may be surprised.
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I have sat back and watched this thread sink lower and lower into the mud...
Can I say that as a mainly East Coast 76 driver they standard of ATC, especially enroute, has improved considerably in he last 6 months- especially with regads to reports of turbulence, winds at different altitudes, and EARLY application of speed control (in the cruise) and sequencing/ high speed. As usual with all things in life, ther is a VERY SMALL minority that make it hard- one of my mates flew into Syd on Tuesday with a 76rr, 38 degrees outside, near max landing weight, one reverser inop, and a 40 minute transit.(think Brake temp) He REQUIRED roll through to Golf on 34L through approach. This should not have been a problem. Tower gave him a very hard time about it, sarcasm was VERY evident, even when the guys said thanks as they exited the RWY. What is the problem?? The 767 are very flexible, we don't need attitude.
Ps I hope the Company has made ATC aware of new company speed restrictions- 250 kts B050 and 210 kts at 12 n.m.
Can I say that as a mainly East Coast 76 driver they standard of ATC, especially enroute, has improved considerably in he last 6 months- especially with regads to reports of turbulence, winds at different altitudes, and EARLY application of speed control (in the cruise) and sequencing/ high speed. As usual with all things in life, ther is a VERY SMALL minority that make it hard- one of my mates flew into Syd on Tuesday with a 76rr, 38 degrees outside, near max landing weight, one reverser inop, and a 40 minute transit.(think Brake temp) He REQUIRED roll through to Golf on 34L through approach. This should not have been a problem. Tower gave him a very hard time about it, sarcasm was VERY evident, even when the guys said thanks as they exited the RWY. What is the problem?? The 767 are very flexible, we don't need attitude.
Ps I hope the Company has made ATC aware of new company speed restrictions- 250 kts B050 and 210 kts at 12 n.m.
Invertedlandings, anybody who has flown jets domestically in Australia is well aware of Qantas 767 speed restrictions, whether company imposed or whatever.
May I have a further little bitch about some QF 767 drivers?
Wasn't uncommon for some of you blokes a few years ago to query and almost backchat ATC over issues such as why are we holding? Why are we being radar vectored off the STAR and not the slower preceding? And one joker had the hubris or unprofessionalism to attempt to organise his own flow into Sydney on a busy night!
Not isolated incidents, alarmingly regular.
Professional courtesy. The QF lack of it brought up in many quarters.
And on your last, I will just wipe the coffee I have sprayed over the keyboard due laughter. QF 767s flexible? Well you have improved. Your habit of crying wolf and always demanding, sorry requiring, the longest runway had us all thinking ( with knowledge of the very sound 767 landing performance ) are these guys men or mice?
And to be told at a briefing from ATC that QF 767s manage to lose a few minutes when instructed to make a high speed descent so ATC doesn't bother requesting them.
Don't kid yourself about flexibility.
May I have a further little bitch about some QF 767 drivers?
Wasn't uncommon for some of you blokes a few years ago to query and almost backchat ATC over issues such as why are we holding? Why are we being radar vectored off the STAR and not the slower preceding? And one joker had the hubris or unprofessionalism to attempt to organise his own flow into Sydney on a busy night!
Not isolated incidents, alarmingly regular.
Professional courtesy. The QF lack of it brought up in many quarters.
And on your last, I will just wipe the coffee I have sprayed over the keyboard due laughter. QF 767s flexible? Well you have improved. Your habit of crying wolf and always demanding, sorry requiring, the longest runway had us all thinking ( with knowledge of the very sound 767 landing performance ) are these guys men or mice?
And to be told at a briefing from ATC that QF 767s manage to lose a few minutes when instructed to make a high speed descent so ATC doesn't bother requesting them.
Don't kid yourself about flexibility.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 27th Nov 2002 at 23:56.
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4711, see my earlier post above yours - I've already offered to shout any pilots some drinks, no problemo.
Too many people have misread this post and finding room for spleen venting. As usual it call comes down to none of us knowing the other's jobs. Unfortunately our managers don't like to do much about that.
Go back to the original message (and my followup) before commenting further, thanks.
Too many people have misread this post and finding room for spleen venting. As usual it call comes down to none of us knowing the other's jobs. Unfortunately our managers don't like to do much about that.
Go back to the original message (and my followup) before commenting further, thanks.
Coral,
After a piece of particularly inept controlling, the controller said to me on the phone (I rang him) that he had to look after QF coz he had shares in them!!
Good one...
After a piece of particularly inept controlling, the controller said to me on the phone (I rang him) that he had to look after QF coz he had shares in them!!
Good one...
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I am starting to wonder if some of the spleen venting going on here is symptomatic of a general lessening of understanding of the relative pressures and even the mechanics of each job.
As a QF 767 pilot I have been on the receiving end of my share of poor vectors and impossible requests (lose 8 minutes in 120 track miles, for instance.... sorry that is not possible, but I do my best and let the system sort itself out).
If I do get a substandard vector or such, I don't go blaming the entire ATC community of incompetence or lack of flexibility, and I would ask that ATC realise that in the 500 or so QF 767 pilots you encounter, you will find a variance of operational experience and personality and therefore I expect the same courtesy.
As we pilots see only a fraction of your job, so you see only a fraction of ours.
I recently was presented with an aircraft with an anti-skid problem. This meant that I was required to use the full length of 16 in Melbourne. The aircraft was a light domestic load but I was also required to use full rated thrust.
Consequently, after requiring the full length of the longest runway, I was airborne before the intersection. I recieved a semi-sarcastic comment from the tower before transferring to departures but I was to busy to explain the situation to him and frankly all he was exhibiting was an ignorance of some of the operations of his "customers".
My point is that either we become aware that the two jobs have different operation constraints accept this and try to make the effort to learn what makes the other job tick, or we can indulge in some of the pointless name calling going on here.
As a QF 767 pilot I have been on the receiving end of my share of poor vectors and impossible requests (lose 8 minutes in 120 track miles, for instance.... sorry that is not possible, but I do my best and let the system sort itself out).
If I do get a substandard vector or such, I don't go blaming the entire ATC community of incompetence or lack of flexibility, and I would ask that ATC realise that in the 500 or so QF 767 pilots you encounter, you will find a variance of operational experience and personality and therefore I expect the same courtesy.
As we pilots see only a fraction of your job, so you see only a fraction of ours.
I recently was presented with an aircraft with an anti-skid problem. This meant that I was required to use the full length of 16 in Melbourne. The aircraft was a light domestic load but I was also required to use full rated thrust.
Consequently, after requiring the full length of the longest runway, I was airborne before the intersection. I recieved a semi-sarcastic comment from the tower before transferring to departures but I was to busy to explain the situation to him and frankly all he was exhibiting was an ignorance of some of the operations of his "customers".
My point is that either we become aware that the two jobs have different operation constraints accept this and try to make the effort to learn what makes the other job tick, or we can indulge in some of the pointless name calling going on here.
Back to the topic at hand...
There may be some discussion about a Qantas donation here but the real shame is... How much does Airservices put in? sfa.
In years past I attended 2 Ansett crissy parties for nix. Thanks very much. Those same years at Airservces (under a previous name) we , got , nothing.
Arguing amongst ourselves about flow instructions and required runway length as opposed to actual usage here is futile as the relationships between ATC and the Airlies must be forged at higher levels and continued down the chain to the console operator and line pilot. With the disdain shown by Airservices to its employees I am fairly safe to say that the industry from which we operate is shunned as well.
A couple of drinks at a party attended by the back scratchers and fanboys donated by an arline will not help this. I can just see the idiots drinking their shandys and gawfawing amongst themselves as to how the enemies beers are so sweet. Until a group of 12 or so in middle to upper middle management are culled from the heap these things will not change (2 down so far).
There may be some discussion about a Qantas donation here but the real shame is... How much does Airservices put in? sfa.
In years past I attended 2 Ansett crissy parties for nix. Thanks very much. Those same years at Airservces (under a previous name) we , got , nothing.
Arguing amongst ourselves about flow instructions and required runway length as opposed to actual usage here is futile as the relationships between ATC and the Airlies must be forged at higher levels and continued down the chain to the console operator and line pilot. With the disdain shown by Airservices to its employees I am fairly safe to say that the industry from which we operate is shunned as well.
A couple of drinks at a party attended by the back scratchers and fanboys donated by an arline will not help this. I can just see the idiots drinking their shandys and gawfawing amongst themselves as to how the enemies beers are so sweet. Until a group of 12 or so in middle to upper middle management are culled from the heap these things will not change (2 down so far).
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375ml
Perhaps the 'misreading' of the post has a lot to do with the title - which has been mentioned by other ATCs. 'Greasing the wheel' smacks of quid pro quo. If that is the way that these gestures have been seen in the past, then perhaps it is time fix that view.
My points were not specifically addressed to you, but also to some of the offensive and unprofessional comments about only providing a 'service' to airlines which provide free beer, flights etc. One can only hope that some were misguided attempts at humour.
My points were not specifically addressed to you, but also to some of the offensive and unprofessional comments about only providing a 'service' to airlines which provide free beer, flights etc. One can only hope that some were misguided attempts at humour.
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I tend to agree with Binoculars and AusATCO but NFR has a good point too.
I remember the good old days at Bankstown where ATC would put on a Christmas Party to which ALL pilots and flying organisations at the field were invited without fear or favour.
I also remember having slabs of liquid goodies left at the Briefing Office and the TWR in the spirit of Christmas and in NO WAY intending to "Grease the ATC wheel".
The Media in particular were very good to us - who could forget the red chopper alighting in the ATC car park to personally deliver the Christmas Cheer one year!
Anyway, I don't remember AusATCO refusing to partake of the refreshments at the time - right, mate?
I remember the good old days at Bankstown where ATC would put on a Christmas Party to which ALL pilots and flying organisations at the field were invited without fear or favour.
I also remember having slabs of liquid goodies left at the Briefing Office and the TWR in the spirit of Christmas and in NO WAY intending to "Grease the ATC wheel".
The Media in particular were very good to us - who could forget the red chopper alighting in the ATC car park to personally deliver the Christmas Cheer one year!
Anyway, I don't remember AusATCO refusing to partake of the refreshments at the time - right, mate?
Borg and QF others.
Yes, I'm sure ATC make a few mistakes. Regrettably, one factor consistant, you rarely,if ever, see exAN, Virgin Blue, Impulse drivers slagging of on Pprune or worse still, airborne backchat. That is a trait that seems to have been introduced by QF 767 Domestic.
Can not believe your management has not stamped down. Airborne backchat is discourteous, unprofessional and dangerous. Though having been professionally associated with a former QF 767 fleet manager at AN, I understand this Sky Pig attitude to some degree.
Borg, the sarcastic comment re rwy use stems from a long and unprofessional QF 767 domestic history. ATC and other professional pilots noted for years the common QF 767 practice of requiring the longest runway. Sydney the classic. Air NZ, Ansett, Air Canada and every other 767 operator would be landing on 07/25, but the QF 767s would require 34.
Another common QF 767 trait was to go to extreme measures to fly under preceding opposition traffic, to take number one position for arrival. The merit in this debatable, but a previous Pprune thread established this common practice. Trouble being, it is real easy to wind on Mach, a lot harder to manage speed efficiently on descent, in the case of QF 767s.
With aircraft seperation becoming a problem, QF would be asked to make a high speed descent or keep the speed on for as long as possible. Again, by the admission of members of the QF 767 community on another thread, not uncommon to see a QF 767 driver commencing speed reduction, in this high speed/best speed scenario, at 30 miles!
We all realise that being a S/O may not be the best preparation for being an efficient, domestic airline pilot. It takes a few years to cut your teeth.
What makes this all abhorrent is the Sky Pig attitude of bagging others(ATC especially), without looking in your own backyard and realising what a pain in the ass your community can be in a professional environment.
Never had a real problem with Aussie ATC. The odd minor hiccup, but then my odd mistake provided ATC with minor hiccups on occassion too. Professional courtesy!
Yes, I'm sure ATC make a few mistakes. Regrettably, one factor consistant, you rarely,if ever, see exAN, Virgin Blue, Impulse drivers slagging of on Pprune or worse still, airborne backchat. That is a trait that seems to have been introduced by QF 767 Domestic.
Can not believe your management has not stamped down. Airborne backchat is discourteous, unprofessional and dangerous. Though having been professionally associated with a former QF 767 fleet manager at AN, I understand this Sky Pig attitude to some degree.
Borg, the sarcastic comment re rwy use stems from a long and unprofessional QF 767 domestic history. ATC and other professional pilots noted for years the common QF 767 practice of requiring the longest runway. Sydney the classic. Air NZ, Ansett, Air Canada and every other 767 operator would be landing on 07/25, but the QF 767s would require 34.
Another common QF 767 trait was to go to extreme measures to fly under preceding opposition traffic, to take number one position for arrival. The merit in this debatable, but a previous Pprune thread established this common practice. Trouble being, it is real easy to wind on Mach, a lot harder to manage speed efficiently on descent, in the case of QF 767s.
With aircraft seperation becoming a problem, QF would be asked to make a high speed descent or keep the speed on for as long as possible. Again, by the admission of members of the QF 767 community on another thread, not uncommon to see a QF 767 driver commencing speed reduction, in this high speed/best speed scenario, at 30 miles!
We all realise that being a S/O may not be the best preparation for being an efficient, domestic airline pilot. It takes a few years to cut your teeth.
What makes this all abhorrent is the Sky Pig attitude of bagging others(ATC especially), without looking in your own backyard and realising what a pain in the ass your community can be in a professional environment.
Never had a real problem with Aussie ATC. The odd minor hiccup, but then my odd mistake provided ATC with minor hiccups on occassion too. Professional courtesy!
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Ahhh, Zarg, memories of good times past.
They were, weren't they? A simpler life in simpler times when everyone just got the job done the best way ...
... with no @#$%^&* paper trails, accountants, lawyers, and all that c r a p. Just professional skill and expertise exercised by all.
Including the odd pint expertly and skillfully quaffed
AA
They were, weren't they? A simpler life in simpler times when everyone just got the job done the best way ...
... with no @#$%^&* paper trails, accountants, lawyers, and all that c r a p. Just professional skill and expertise exercised by all.
Including the odd pint expertly and skillfully quaffed
AA
Last edited by Ausatco; 1st Dec 2002 at 02:25.
Dear Oh Dear, My Mailbag Is Full!
It would seem many in the profession concur with my observations of the Sky Pig attitude of all too many in the QF 767 community.
The professional courtesy and positions of some of these Ppruners prevents them from making comment here, but they are all united in their disbelief that QF Flight Management has not stamped down on the unprofessional practice of backchat.
I feel, for the benefit of some QF 767 drivers, a seperate thread warranted. Aviation etiquette maybe an appropriate title.
OK, speed management is tough, there are them that can and them that can't, but if you are going to wind on Mach and go underneath people, show some manners. Don't slow down at 30 miles and mess up seperation and other professionals' day!
And on back chat, pull your head in fellows. This gives us real insight into your situation awareness; skypigs act and think they are the only airlines in the sky.
Keg are you on leave? Usually the voice of reason for QF.
It would seem many in the profession concur with my observations of the Sky Pig attitude of all too many in the QF 767 community.
The professional courtesy and positions of some of these Ppruners prevents them from making comment here, but they are all united in their disbelief that QF Flight Management has not stamped down on the unprofessional practice of backchat.
I feel, for the benefit of some QF 767 drivers, a seperate thread warranted. Aviation etiquette maybe an appropriate title.
OK, speed management is tough, there are them that can and them that can't, but if you are going to wind on Mach and go underneath people, show some manners. Don't slow down at 30 miles and mess up seperation and other professionals' day!
And on back chat, pull your head in fellows. This gives us real insight into your situation awareness; skypigs act and think they are the only airlines in the sky.
Keg are you on leave? Usually the voice of reason for QF.
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Gnadenburg,
Obviously I am in the minority here as as Qf 767 driver- but as I said in an earlier post, the 30 nm speed reduction will be typical now for the 767 with 250kts B050 restriction- a typical gate for the 767 ( I know that you probably already know this) is 250 kts at 5000 at 20 nm. If we are doing a high speed descent say 340 kts, it will take around 1.5- 2minutes to slow at 500 fpm( typical VANV slowdown). 1.5-2 minutes at around an average of 300 kts is 10 miles.
As for backchat, there must be only a small minority out there doing it - I have done around 350 domestic sectors this year and not heard it.
AS for winding up Mach at lower levels- one of the few things mangagement has been on our back for in the last 6 months (other than rushed approaches which is huge at the moment) is schedule, which is our No 1 complaint at the moment from the pax. Guys are trying to do thier best at the moment with regards to this flying around Fl280, we now have 1 hr 25minute block SYD-MEL (up from 1.20) which has made a big difference, especially if it 34L.
Anyway, as for beers with you guys, love to- I spent 3 hours in Mel Tower with a guy I knew from a regional tower- those guys would love to, but I'm not holding my breath for money from QF mangement - all Qf pilots got their Christmas bonus on Friday- a 2003 diary worth about 20 cents! YIPPEE
And as for the ex 767 fleet manger you met at AN- there was a reason he didn't fly at AN...
Obviously I am in the minority here as as Qf 767 driver- but as I said in an earlier post, the 30 nm speed reduction will be typical now for the 767 with 250kts B050 restriction- a typical gate for the 767 ( I know that you probably already know this) is 250 kts at 5000 at 20 nm. If we are doing a high speed descent say 340 kts, it will take around 1.5- 2minutes to slow at 500 fpm( typical VANV slowdown). 1.5-2 minutes at around an average of 300 kts is 10 miles.
As for backchat, there must be only a small minority out there doing it - I have done around 350 domestic sectors this year and not heard it.
AS for winding up Mach at lower levels- one of the few things mangagement has been on our back for in the last 6 months (other than rushed approaches which is huge at the moment) is schedule, which is our No 1 complaint at the moment from the pax. Guys are trying to do thier best at the moment with regards to this flying around Fl280, we now have 1 hr 25minute block SYD-MEL (up from 1.20) which has made a big difference, especially if it 34L.
Anyway, as for beers with you guys, love to- I spent 3 hours in Mel Tower with a guy I knew from a regional tower- those guys would love to, but I'm not holding my breath for money from QF mangement - all Qf pilots got their Christmas bonus on Friday- a 2003 diary worth about 20 cents! YIPPEE
And as for the ex 767 fleet manger you met at AN- there was a reason he didn't fly at AN...
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IVL, are you saying that QF go to those low levels to meet ontime performance? 1.20-25 is made quite easily no matter what runway you get into Sy, and now that there are about 50 less aircraft into Sy (post AN) there's not that much holding or slowing down. I can only imagine the amount of extra fuel that you must be consuming. Can anyone tell me how much fuel is used on a QF 737 fro Mel to Syd at low levels?
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Gnadenburg, you are obviously coming from a point of view that sees Reds under the bed everywhere.
Backchat: I am with invertedlandings. As a veteran of many years of domestic flying now, I have never heard it. Maybe you heard it once and extrapolated that to better suit your own bias.
Inverted also mentions the use of the lower level cruise to get back on schedule. If the use of that technique gets you ahead of the VB 737 hanging itself up in the gale at FL390, so be it. I am sure our passengers appreciate it. I once took off about 15 minutes after a AN 767 heading for Perth and was in the crew bus heading for the hotel by the time AN landed.
Requiring the longest runway: AIPA has a directive current that requires, when a runway such as 07 in SYD is being used for noise abatement and the crosswind is more than 15 knots and another longer runway has less crosswind, that we must require the use of the more in to wind runway. This is a safety issue. If you blithely accept 25 knots of crosswind and 5 knots of downwind on a short runway on the basis that of "professionalism", then I must disagree.
Speed control: Inverted has mentioned the blanket speed control regime now being implemented. Once again, it is a safety issue designed to prevent rushed approaches. I agree with it, but in any case, it is QF policy and is unlikely to change.
In short, I would ask that perhaps you examine your current bias re QF767 drivers in the light of the above. Cheers
Backchat: I am with invertedlandings. As a veteran of many years of domestic flying now, I have never heard it. Maybe you heard it once and extrapolated that to better suit your own bias.
Inverted also mentions the use of the lower level cruise to get back on schedule. If the use of that technique gets you ahead of the VB 737 hanging itself up in the gale at FL390, so be it. I am sure our passengers appreciate it. I once took off about 15 minutes after a AN 767 heading for Perth and was in the crew bus heading for the hotel by the time AN landed.
Requiring the longest runway: AIPA has a directive current that requires, when a runway such as 07 in SYD is being used for noise abatement and the crosswind is more than 15 knots and another longer runway has less crosswind, that we must require the use of the more in to wind runway. This is a safety issue. If you blithely accept 25 knots of crosswind and 5 knots of downwind on a short runway on the basis that of "professionalism", then I must disagree.
Speed control: Inverted has mentioned the blanket speed control regime now being implemented. Once again, it is a safety issue designed to prevent rushed approaches. I agree with it, but in any case, it is QF policy and is unlikely to change.
In short, I would ask that perhaps you examine your current bias re QF767 drivers in the light of the above. Cheers
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I am surprised anybody agrees with the new descent restrictions really. Flying 250/5000 and 210/12 isnt how you should fly a jet. You should fly it efficiently and comfortable to intercept the third degree.
The restrictions aren't going to stop people being 250/5000 at 10nm or 210kts at 12 nm at 5000' leading to rushed approaches.
The restrictions aren't going to stop people being 250/5000 at 10nm or 210kts at 12 nm at 5000' leading to rushed approaches.
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Have to agree with GTR that especially 210 kts at 12nm is not going to stop anyone do a rushed approach- the example of the 767 at 16 MEL where it was flaps 1, 1500ft at around 200kts is an example that management are showing at the LOSA briefings at the moment....
betedete- 1.25 SYD-MEL is better than it was, but if you depart 34R ( about a 15 minute taxi) and then fly the full Marub Departure (passport required) it makes it fairly tight.
Extra fuel for a 767 SYD_MEL at FL280 compared with 380- around 600kg, depending on wind- Mangement think schedule is more important than fuel efficiency so they are happy for us to do it. As for less traffic SYD-MEL-SYD, VB are now every 1/2 hour during peak- I would say approx 1 in 8 of my flights have speed/ time/ vector restrictions, a lot better than it was.
Have fun
betedete- 1.25 SYD-MEL is better than it was, but if you depart 34R ( about a 15 minute taxi) and then fly the full Marub Departure (passport required) it makes it fairly tight.
Extra fuel for a 767 SYD_MEL at FL280 compared with 380- around 600kg, depending on wind- Mangement think schedule is more important than fuel efficiency so they are happy for us to do it. As for less traffic SYD-MEL-SYD, VB are now every 1/2 hour during peak- I would say approx 1 in 8 of my flights have speed/ time/ vector restrictions, a lot better than it was.
Have fun
Borg
I believe professional courtesy to be lacking in your community. I raised the issue and to my surprise, my Pprune mailbag filled with industry people in concurrence. As I mentioned, their professional courtesy prevents a slanging match on pprune. But not me, and with their encouragement, I will procede.
You are a veteran of many years? I can safely assume you were on the scene when QF 767s blasted into Australian domestic aviation, for my "bias" begins here.
On airborne backchat, I have witnessed it on numerous occassions. My mailbag indicates others in the industry disappointed your management has not quashed this practice.
On recent "possible" backchat, go back a few threads to the SY ATIS thread. The response to a QF 767 querying the ATIS was a supposed terse ATC response and offer of a phone number. I feel the tone of this thread, and others, not unlike the airbone tone and discourtesy evident over many years from your community. Can I quickly add, why not brief the ILS? Bases covered. And on the remark that "main reason QF 1" and proceding to blame Asian ATC, a professional failing with few lessons learnt?
On winding on Mach. I feel from day one, a little more than just company policy. Not unlike the tarmac aggression the QF pilot community have displayed at airports Australia wide. That is a daily event!
By the very admission of the QF 767 community on previous threads, speed control not standard in the terminal area. The green band of some, very thin! Infuriating to have all the drama( making ATCs job hard) and aggressive positioning (consistantly attempting to fly underneath opposition traffic) only to have a QF 767s prematurely commence speed reduction.
Are these new speed reductions borne of management realising speed management a lost art, possibly due long haul-short haul cross pollination, or a technical issue?
On requiring 34/16 when the duty rwy 07/25. A little patronising but I do respect the AIPA directive. It was very common in the early days, light winds clear skies, for QF 767s to require 16/34. It was reprehensible and a Skypig attitude. Probably due professional laziness or an amatuer commercial factors mindset.
I realise I am hanging on like a Blue Healer, but some very basic professional courtesy,human factors and CRM in the above. Rembering the aforementioned extend beyond your own Flight Deck!
From Gnadenburg's Mailbag-"You are spot on. QF domestic management would be well advised to recognise and correct the reasons why their fleet is held in such disregard by such a cross section of the industry"
and "Thanks for stating the obvious to all but the QF 767 drivers. Watch them wriggle and squirm. Instead of taking the well proven civil approach".
I believe professional courtesy to be lacking in your community. I raised the issue and to my surprise, my Pprune mailbag filled with industry people in concurrence. As I mentioned, their professional courtesy prevents a slanging match on pprune. But not me, and with their encouragement, I will procede.
You are a veteran of many years? I can safely assume you were on the scene when QF 767s blasted into Australian domestic aviation, for my "bias" begins here.
On airborne backchat, I have witnessed it on numerous occassions. My mailbag indicates others in the industry disappointed your management has not quashed this practice.
On recent "possible" backchat, go back a few threads to the SY ATIS thread. The response to a QF 767 querying the ATIS was a supposed terse ATC response and offer of a phone number. I feel the tone of this thread, and others, not unlike the airbone tone and discourtesy evident over many years from your community. Can I quickly add, why not brief the ILS? Bases covered. And on the remark that "main reason QF 1" and proceding to blame Asian ATC, a professional failing with few lessons learnt?
On winding on Mach. I feel from day one, a little more than just company policy. Not unlike the tarmac aggression the QF pilot community have displayed at airports Australia wide. That is a daily event!
By the very admission of the QF 767 community on previous threads, speed control not standard in the terminal area. The green band of some, very thin! Infuriating to have all the drama( making ATCs job hard) and aggressive positioning (consistantly attempting to fly underneath opposition traffic) only to have a QF 767s prematurely commence speed reduction.
Are these new speed reductions borne of management realising speed management a lost art, possibly due long haul-short haul cross pollination, or a technical issue?
On requiring 34/16 when the duty rwy 07/25. A little patronising but I do respect the AIPA directive. It was very common in the early days, light winds clear skies, for QF 767s to require 16/34. It was reprehensible and a Skypig attitude. Probably due professional laziness or an amatuer commercial factors mindset.
I realise I am hanging on like a Blue Healer, but some very basic professional courtesy,human factors and CRM in the above. Rembering the aforementioned extend beyond your own Flight Deck!
From Gnadenburg's Mailbag-"You are spot on. QF domestic management would be well advised to recognise and correct the reasons why their fleet is held in such disregard by such a cross section of the industry"
and "Thanks for stating the obvious to all but the QF 767 drivers. Watch them wriggle and squirm. Instead of taking the well proven civil approach".