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Am I missing something here?

Old 7th Nov 2002, 00:08
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Question Am I missing something here?

Taxiing The World's Slowest Jet at Gove the other day, we had a 4 or 5 minute delay for the preceding aircraft to backtrack RWY13 and then be ready for take off. That's life.

Just as we entered the runway, up pops bloggs (C402 I think) on MBZ and asks can he follow us down and depart as number 1. I can only assume that Bloggs didn't want to wait his turn, given that he asked us to allow him to depart as #1.

My question is, if he didn't want to wait his turn, why would he think we'd want to wait longer than required for our turn? Not to mention that at a guess his climb speed would have been about 120 KIAS, our V2 about 130 KIAS increasing to 250 KIAS, thus requiring a wait until AIP separation standard was met!
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Old 7th Nov 2002, 00:16
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Grandpa Aerotart
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Easy Clarry...just say "NO"!

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Old 7th Nov 2002, 00:24
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Trying to avoid a 3 minute wake turbulence delay I guess.
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Old 7th Nov 2002, 07:26
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I'm with you on this one Capt Claret. Had a similar thing the other day. Not only did a 206 (same mob as the 402) cut in on us during the final segment of an instrument approach. But took forever to vacate the runway, causing us to go around!

Then on departure, we waited TEN MINUTES, burning many lbs of Jet A1, at the holding point as a BN2, 206, 310 and every other machine in the NT joined downwind. Not one extended downwind just a little to let us out. When asked, "No sorry, turning close base now".

Before that a 402 cut underneath us making us do a really long downwind. To make me even happier, a 210 asked could he go number 2 to the 402, seeing as how we were on such a long downwind. Yeah right!

To the guys with the Red and Yellow aircraft, how about a little courtesy?
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Old 7th Nov 2002, 08:12
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Cap'n Claret/ Near Miss,
The incidents you relate are unfortunately a classic example of the old maxim.
'Common sense is not so common'
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Old 7th Nov 2002, 10:47
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Talking Here's an idea!

How about you guys chip in and employ me as the Gove Air Traffic Controller? Mmmmmm, fishing.....

Then again, most pilots tell us that 'air traffic controllers are not necessary and we could do a better job ourselves!'

Just joking guys. See ya in the skies,


PS: Do pilots submit CAIRS on these types of incidents or is it all down to airmanship and not really reportable? Ta.
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Old 7th Nov 2002, 11:52
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I took the easy way!

p.s. enjoy LRE.

89 steps ..

I hadn't thought of that possibility until I read your post. On reflection though, I reckon that had Bloggs taxied at a walking pace the 3 mins would have been almost gone. Additionally I'd guess that a 402 would get airborne well before a heavyish Slow jet.


Not worth a CAIR report, I don't think it classes as an incident as such.

I suspect that asking to follow some one down the runway is seen as somewhat trendy.

I don't have a problem in principal as long as the follower is happy to line up and depart after the person they're following, and not using the technique to jump up in the sequence.
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Old 7th Nov 2002, 12:05
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Just finished one as a matter of fact! Some time next week we must share one, I just bought a couple and they are OK.

Re Gove, I have found them quite helpfull.

I have regularly found the opposite scenario to you, where the MAF guys are ready to line up ahead of us, I ask politely can we follow them down and depart behind them, have never had a problem.

I have also had them depart ahead. I reckon it takes 6-7 mins from off blocks for the F/A's to do their stuff so if you taxi down and let them go its only a min or two and off you go. If you don't like that idea, anything against letting them follow you down and depart as number 2. Its their problem re tryuing to avoid the massive jet blast!


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Old 7th Nov 2002, 12:11
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The cabin was secure before we left the holding point an entered the wunway, that's runway.

No problem with them taxiing behind and departing as #2. It's the "can I follow you and go No1" that I find is a bit too forward.

And a drop or two would be good.
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Old 7th Nov 2002, 19:50
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Question Cowboy Ops??

So if you have a couple of A/C on the RWY at the same time and let's say, you are RTOW limited to the full length: How do you actually use the full length if there is another A/C behind you (assuming you use the required seperation)?

What about potential stone damage to the following A/C?

Most regional airports that I go to don't have data available for TWY intersections, hence all RTOW data is based upon the full length. If you're not really using the full length (don't give me the "I know it'll get airborne in the remaining length), how would you explain a mishap that, let's say, caused an overrun, or worse, an engine failure above V1? Damn those hills!

Somebody help me here?

I just say NO.
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Old 7th Nov 2002, 22:08
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Can't even post a joke on here without getting hammered!

RENURPP, just give it a break will ya. Cheers,

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Old 8th Nov 2002, 01:46
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G'day Jarse,

With the turning nodes at Gove there would be enough room for Bloggs to follow, hold in the corner of the node, out of the way of the massively powerful jet blast, and then line up and take his/her chances with the wake turbulence.

p.s. Will you be/can you be, anywhere near Cannnnbra late Dec for a bevvy?
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Old 8th Nov 2002, 04:54
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Clarrie me old

I suspect that asking to follow some one down the runway is seen as somewhat trendy.
Game set and match on that one.

I've seen it all before, they probably saw a lighter heavy doing it by following behind a heavy heavy needing the full length.
The speeds as you say, are relative and no problem given the time it will take the heavy heavy to get to the TO end the light heavy will be way beyond the DER.
I've had em do it to me unannounced on the longer dirt uncontrolled mining strips and as you turn around and start to open the taps whilst keeping rolling to minimise FOD, there in front of you is a windscreen full of dust and disappearing tail, now we gotta turn around yet again to regain the full RWY length, with more dust and FOD flying.........unflattering words followed.

To put an ultralight in front just isn't gonna play and a little thought by the ultralight mob would see the logic.

Having said that, as Chuck says, ultralight or not if it goes pear shaped, it will be difficult to explain to the insurance company why you did not use the full length available regardless of whether it is in excess of your requirement.

Monkey see monkey do.
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Old 8th Nov 2002, 09:39
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I used to get this sort of stuff a lot back in Broome. When a 146 landed on RWY 28 it used to take them four minutes from crossing the threshold to clearing the runway after taxiing to the node and back traking full length. In reverse, when departing on 10 the jet drivers never had a problem with the 210's and 206's back tracking behind and taking off from the intersection. To the best of my knowledge we never ever held one of them up and I certainly never heard of a complaint.

In the circuit I'd try to stay out of the way of the big fellas but a couple of the drivers used to tell us to hurry up so they wouldn't hold us up.

Works both ways!!

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