Regional Jet Replacement
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Living next door to Alan
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My dick's bigger than yours?
Sure, when the jet takes off out of YSCB and beats me to YSSY by a minute or 2, then ATC says "can you accept a base turn now?" (while we are at 6000' on downwind and just past the landing threshold, while the "faster" jet is a few more miles ahead of us on downwind).
We then get vectored to a short final.
FLEXIBILITY......I'll take (and it seems ATC) flexibility anyday....
We've shut down and disembarked while the faster jet is still on mid-final.
Sure, jets rule
We then get vectored to a short final.
FLEXIBILITY......I'll take (and it seems ATC) flexibility anyday....
We've shut down and disembarked while the faster jet is still on mid-final.
Sure, jets rule
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: somewhere in Australia
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The difference between Jets and Props (dash 8) is money in the pay packet...
As for ATC i am sure the ATC guys and gals are able to operate the system better but the Pollies control Syd Airport...
As for ATC i am sure the ATC guys and gals are able to operate the system better but the Pollies control Syd Airport...
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Australia
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The Hard Sell
Last edited by Won tok; 9th Oct 2002 at 02:38.
If the points that Jim Thorn raise in his article are correct then it would be very hard to not buy (or lease) more B717's. I still see a need for a smaller aircraft (70 seats) for a number of routes so even though it is undesirable to introduce yet another aircraft type, there will be an order for the Brazilizn sports car.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Australia
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Wow, I didn't realise the 717 had a TAS of 500kts!!! (According to Jim, 70kts faster than a 146) Boeing should have sold thousands of these things.
Jim's a well respected guy, however I would have thought his aircraft knowledge (or basic research) would be of a better standard. He obviously has a bee under his bonnet regarding the 146 all of a sudden! And he doesn't have to fly them!!
"Crikey!"
Jim's a well respected guy, however I would have thought his aircraft knowledge (or basic research) would be of a better standard. He obviously has a bee under his bonnet regarding the 146 all of a sudden! And he doesn't have to fly them!!
"Crikey!"
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oz
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I'm sure passenger preference out of Perth would be the 747, but that just ain't gonna happen to Newman is it ?
The 73 only made around 10 mins on us up to KA, hardly the end of the world . ( and that was at our normal crz speed )
Is'nt ground speed directly related to TAS , given similar alts and same track ??
I wish all you blokes that could do 270 to the OM had been flying in Perth, I used to get sick of slowing down for the boats that were supposedly maintaining best speed to the field.
The 73 only made around 10 mins on us up to KA, hardly the end of the world . ( and that was at our normal crz speed )
Is'nt ground speed directly related to TAS , given similar alts and same track ??
I wish all you blokes that could do 270 to the OM had been flying in Perth, I used to get sick of slowing down for the boats that were supposedly maintaining best speed to the field.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Gate 69
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A Fast 146! He he
I can remember flying into DN in a boat and not being able to get 11 (only a few knots of d/wind) because a 146 was on a 1000nm final for 29 via HWS. As it was we had to slow up and fly a downwind until GTE. We could have kept Vmo until about 5nm and beat it in by heaps (have actually got to do it once and was shut down when it landed). They cruise ok and probably can fly flat out to the field, but when do they?
As for the Dash.... Sorry HJ, but if you find out that you are number two to a Dash, start slowing up right away, even if they are several miles in front, especially if it is a CW one. But you can not argue with their performance, payload vs TODR vs TAS.
My money is on the 717, especially if they can do what has be writen about them, eg. TODR 1900m at MTOW in + ISA. Can anyone who actually flys them post the normal cruise speed and field length req'd?
As for the Dash.... Sorry HJ, but if you find out that you are number two to a Dash, start slowing up right away, even if they are several miles in front, especially if it is a CW one. But you can not argue with their performance, payload vs TODR vs TAS.
My money is on the 717, especially if they can do what has be writen about them, eg. TODR 1900m at MTOW in + ISA. Can anyone who actually flys them post the normal cruise speed and field length req'd?
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
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Near Miss,
You are right when you boast that you can hold Vmo till short final in a turboprop. That's because flight idle in a turboprop produces a speed brake that a jet pilot would kill for! Remember, most turboprops and jets are doing about the same speed (250kts) below 10,000. The big difference is that by virtue of their much higher weight, the jet needs more airspace to slow down . The 146, through the big tail mounted airbrake, has some flexibility that many other jets lack, and if desired, can maintain 250kts till about 6-7nm (level flight) but full airbrake/speedbrake in any jet, does not feel that great from a pax viewpoint so its not the desired way of slowing down.
One day you might get to find out what it's like to get caught too close, too fast in a jet that doesn't want to slow down in a hurry. Suddenly you have to put your coffee down and pay full attention!
AA
You are right when you boast that you can hold Vmo till short final in a turboprop. That's because flight idle in a turboprop produces a speed brake that a jet pilot would kill for! Remember, most turboprops and jets are doing about the same speed (250kts) below 10,000. The big difference is that by virtue of their much higher weight, the jet needs more airspace to slow down . The 146, through the big tail mounted airbrake, has some flexibility that many other jets lack, and if desired, can maintain 250kts till about 6-7nm (level flight) but full airbrake/speedbrake in any jet, does not feel that great from a pax viewpoint so its not the desired way of slowing down.
One day you might get to find out what it's like to get caught too close, too fast in a jet that doesn't want to slow down in a hurry. Suddenly you have to put your coffee down and pay full attention!
AA
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2 daddies,
I read the article again, and still come to the conclusion he says the 717 cruises 70kts faster than the 146. Nowhere does he mention groundspeed. A 146 at F310 will have the same/similar wind component in any case.
I also had a laugh at the comments regarding the 717 cruising at roughly the same speed (Mach .76) as the new 737-800 and the 767-300!
763 drivers must feel insulted about that one!
.76 is even below Econ Cruise for an NG.
They can write what they want, they do anyway, but my point still stands that aviation writers, in an aviation publication, should either know what they are talking about - or at least do a bit of research. I am a subscriber to AA and overall very happy with the magazine.
I read the article again, and still come to the conclusion he says the 717 cruises 70kts faster than the 146. Nowhere does he mention groundspeed. A 146 at F310 will have the same/similar wind component in any case.
I also had a laugh at the comments regarding the 717 cruising at roughly the same speed (Mach .76) as the new 737-800 and the 767-300!
763 drivers must feel insulted about that one!
.76 is even below Econ Cruise for an NG.
They can write what they want, they do anyway, but my point still stands that aviation writers, in an aviation publication, should either know what they are talking about - or at least do a bit of research. I am a subscriber to AA and overall very happy with the magazine.
Join Date: May 2002
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STH,
Definitely not! Anyone who knows the Chieftain, knows you must slow down slowly into the circuit unless you want to destroy a couple of turbochargers (Boss man not happy). Plus no lovely FA's to deliver hot beverages!
AA
Definitely not! Anyone who knows the Chieftain, knows you must slow down slowly into the circuit unless you want to destroy a couple of turbochargers (Boss man not happy). Plus no lovely FA's to deliver hot beverages!
AA
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Near miss, I think alot of it comes down to the driver and their knowledge/confidence with their aircraft, also I have found a major factor to be some peoples interpretation of slight, moderate and severe turbulence, ie;have heard guys slowing down for " moderate " turbulence only to find out it was a little light chop.
Join Date: Feb 2000
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Actually Airspeed Ambassador I have had the pleasure of finding myself a little too fast in a jet coming into land. :o Had to go flight idle and put out the boards to get her down to gear speed. I hate it went I'm half asleep and ATC turn you in a bit (10 track miles) earlier than normal. Oh well, we all want track shortening. But at the same time I have also had the pleasure of doing greater than 300 IAS turning base. And before any of you start with the 250 below 10 thing, read it closely, for I was IFR, in Class C, and not at either SY or ML. I was just having a little dig at the 146.
Turboprop vs Jet. I have flown both and think that they each have their advantages. We all know which the well informed pax want, but you can't run a 744 CB to SY 15 times a day. Nor can you run a B1900 SY to PH either. The question here is which one is the best for the job that QFL are going to ask of it? I would still like to get some actual normal (not "I'm giving it all I can Captain") cruise speeds, levels, TODR (at say ISA + 15 to 20) at MTOW, range, and the like for the 717, Dash 8 and 146/RJX, just to compare.
I'm with stupid totally agree. I think a lot more should be taught about what is what, not just with turbulence, but with runway condition and braking, etc.
But at the same time I have also had the pleasure of doing greater than 300 IAS turning base. And before any of you start with the 250 below 10 thing, read it closely, for I was IFR, in Class C, and not at either SY or ML. I was just having a little dig at the 146.Turboprop vs Jet. I have flown both and think that they each have their advantages. We all know which the well informed pax want, but you can't run a 744 CB to SY 15 times a day. Nor can you run a B1900 SY to PH either. The question here is which one is the best for the job that QFL are going to ask of it? I would still like to get some actual normal (not "I'm giving it all I can Captain") cruise speeds, levels, TODR (at say ISA + 15 to 20) at MTOW, range, and the like for the 717, Dash 8 and 146/RJX, just to compare.
I'm with stupid totally agree. I think a lot more should be taught about what is what, not just with turbulence, but with runway condition and braking, etc.
Near Miss,
I can give you rough figures on the 146. I mainly fly the 300 series, therefore i will give you those figures.
87 pax.
payload 10,600kg i.e. crew and catering etc already taken into account.
cruise speed, well that varies. Say from M.62 approx 380 kts up to M.72 around 450 kts.
Range around 1500nm.
With max payload around 1350nm
Don't have the appropriate paperwork with me but we can depart Gove which is 2050mts TORA so some where around 2000 mts.
The above figures vary slightly but would be close for all altitudes between approx F240-F310.
Rough but pretty close.
I can give you rough figures on the 146. I mainly fly the 300 series, therefore i will give you those figures.
87 pax.
payload 10,600kg i.e. crew and catering etc already taken into account.
cruise speed, well that varies. Say from M.62 approx 380 kts up to M.72 around 450 kts.
Range around 1500nm.
With max payload around 1350nm
Don't have the appropriate paperwork with me but we can depart Gove which is 2050mts TORA so some where around 2000 mts.
The above figures vary slightly but would be close for all altitudes between approx F240-F310.
Rough but pretty close.