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A bit like haveing your cake and eating it too i'd say.......
If, as i understand it, the intergration agreement was in place before the 1900 pilots were made redundant they would have had a Qantaslink number as well as their imp number so they would have been able to get a slot in qantaslink where ever.
essio2 is that the way you se it...
It would have also saved a lot of hart ake in southern...
If, as i understand it, the intergration agreement was in place before the 1900 pilots were made redundant they would have had a Qantaslink number as well as their imp number so they would have been able to get a slot in qantaslink where ever.
essio2 is that the way you se it...
It would have also saved a lot of hart ake in southern...
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Ramjet, the best we could get from our pushes to get a dash drive is a promise of an interview and several haven't even got that. those that have had an interview have been offered nothing (do we feel triple shafted you bet) and now as we are not enjoying unemployed we talk integration, the upside for us has already been lost
Spinout, if we go to a dash job now(back that out as dreaming) under the current system we WILL be re-employed back onto the jet, probably the reason for the above. Understandable you probably think from Sunnies and Easterns prospective not to employ us but remember we do not know how long re-employment will take
essio2, stumbling block as mentioned will be our lack of opportunity if 717-200 are replaced or upgraded to bigger equip (as I read the proposal).
At the end of the day all I have to say if you want/need our support how about getting management to throw 30 odd blokes a bone(job).
Spinout, if we go to a dash job now(back that out as dreaming) under the current system we WILL be re-employed back onto the jet, probably the reason for the above. Understandable you probably think from Sunnies and Easterns prospective not to employ us but remember we do not know how long re-employment will take
essio2, stumbling block as mentioned will be our lack of opportunity if 717-200 are replaced or upgraded to bigger equip (as I read the proposal).
At the end of the day all I have to say if you want/need our support how about getting management to throw 30 odd blokes a bone(job).
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I'm with you, Zed.
One of the hardest things for the ex-B1900 pilots is the fact that no b*****d in GA or any other part of flying wants to touch them because they're just "going to quit in a few months and go to the 717." Well that would be great if it were true, but the truth is that no one from Qantas is saying when (or even if) there will ever be enough jets to pick all the pilots back off the street. It could be THREE YEARS, (or even NEVER!!!!!) Whether or not a guaranteed jet slot is on offer, 3 years out of flying is a bloody long time.
A logical, common-sense approach would have QF mainline and/or regionals recognise the extent to which they shafted all 33 1900 people and offer them employment on Dash-8s. Christ, even contract employment (much like the courtesy they offered some ex-Ansett Group pilots) would be an attractive option.
It seems that in their never-ending quest for profit, QF management has forgotten that people are just that. PEOPLE. Not a series of 6 digit numbers in a frikking database.
Allegedly.
One of the hardest things for the ex-B1900 pilots is the fact that no b*****d in GA or any other part of flying wants to touch them because they're just "going to quit in a few months and go to the 717." Well that would be great if it were true, but the truth is that no one from Qantas is saying when (or even if) there will ever be enough jets to pick all the pilots back off the street. It could be THREE YEARS, (or even NEVER!!!!!) Whether or not a guaranteed jet slot is on offer, 3 years out of flying is a bloody long time.
A logical, common-sense approach would have QF mainline and/or regionals recognise the extent to which they shafted all 33 1900 people and offer them employment on Dash-8s. Christ, even contract employment (much like the courtesy they offered some ex-Ansett Group pilots) would be an attractive option.
It seems that in their never-ending quest for profit, QF management has forgotten that people are just that. PEOPLE. Not a series of 6 digit numbers in a frikking database.
Allegedly.
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Yep, it was plain to see that the 1900 drivers were certainly disadvantaged when King Evil from the Empire courted little Gerry over a few beers and then handed the court jester a few mill to go away and leave the airline business to the people who know how to run airlines, maybe make money but don't give a flying zebra about the people that cut the coal from the coal face.
Exit left, 1900 pilots.
I don't know whether the pulse has a pilot council or whether you have anyone to represent you (come to think of it neither do we......) but there would appear to be some merit still in getting all the parties together to sort through this one.
I know I will get the "bloo8y impulse should be lucky they have jobs" garbage but the point is pilots are people and they all should have the same common goal, the same oportunities and the same support from their peers and colleages, but all I see is a concerted effort to devide and destroy the possibilities that can be explored.
Leave the axe grinding behind and find a way to beat the morons in high places!
Exit left, 1900 pilots.
I don't know whether the pulse has a pilot council or whether you have anyone to represent you (come to think of it neither do we......) but there would appear to be some merit still in getting all the parties together to sort through this one.
I know I will get the "bloo8y impulse should be lucky they have jobs" garbage but the point is pilots are people and they all should have the same common goal, the same oportunities and the same support from their peers and colleages, but all I see is a concerted effort to devide and destroy the possibilities that can be explored.
Leave the axe grinding behind and find a way to beat the morons in high places!
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To start with I am not associated with Qantas, EAA, SAA,SSA or Impulse, just an outsider looking in.
Yes the Evil Empire has done a job on the 3 original regionals (EAA, SAA and SSA), but this has occured over many years and not since May last year when Qantas took control of Impulse. From what I've read and seen Qantas had been playing EAA, SAA and SSA against each other for years. They (Qantas) have been 'carrot dangling' new larger/jet aircraft to EAA, SAA and SSA since the mid-90s, to see pay each regional was willing to except.
And then out of the blue Qantas grab Impulse and it's a new ball game. In grabbing Impulse, Qantas achieved two things, they removed one of the competition and secondly gained a regional airline operating jet equipment that suits the leisure markets. And although the Impulse pilots have gained far better pay and conditions, they are a less than what the pilot groups of EAA,SAA and SSA would except if Qantas had given them the 717s. There is no point in blaming the Impulse pilots for what happened, Qantas made a business decision
Instead of trying to gain slots on the 717 the pilot groups at EAA, SAA and SSA should work together and look at the future. Think back 10-12 years ago, and look at what types of aircraft each of these regionals were operating. EAA had E110s, J31s and Dash 8s. SAA had C404s,Shorts 360 ? and Dash 8s. SSA had DHC6s, Shorts 330/360s and Dash 8s. So now what are these airlines operating, all Dash 8s plus 3 BA146s (at least for a few more months). So in 10 years these airlines have gone from operating large fleets of 19 seat or less aircraft to large fleets of 36-50 seat aircraft. 10 years ago the travelling public was happy to fly around in these smaller aircraft but now in 2002 they expect more and now the travelling public when flying Qantas are flying on 36-50 seat aircraft. So want will the travelling public expect in 5-10 years time, they will expect what those in the USA are getting now 'Regional Jets'. The first generation of RJ's are almost 10 years old now and with the introduction of the larger 70 seat aircraft starting to take place, many of the smaller 50 seat aircraft are entering the used aircraft market and the price of these aircraft is dropping. In 5 years time you will be able to buy a second hand ERJ-145 for the same price (if not less) than a Dash 8-300. In 5-10 years time the Qantaslink turboprop operation (Dash 8s) will expand to include a 50 seat RJ operation. Markets such as SY-CH, SY-BNA, SY -TW, SY-WG, SY-AY, SY-DU, BN-NTL, BN-GLA, BN-EMD, BN-LRE, ML-MIA,ML-DPO etc are routes that in 5-10 years could be operated by RJs. At a guess the average age of most of the Dash 8 pilots within Qantaslink would be 30-35. So if all the pilot groups work together they will get the chance to fly jet equipment.
Yes the Evil Empire has done a job on the 3 original regionals (EAA, SAA and SSA), but this has occured over many years and not since May last year when Qantas took control of Impulse. From what I've read and seen Qantas had been playing EAA, SAA and SSA against each other for years. They (Qantas) have been 'carrot dangling' new larger/jet aircraft to EAA, SAA and SSA since the mid-90s, to see pay each regional was willing to except.
And then out of the blue Qantas grab Impulse and it's a new ball game. In grabbing Impulse, Qantas achieved two things, they removed one of the competition and secondly gained a regional airline operating jet equipment that suits the leisure markets. And although the Impulse pilots have gained far better pay and conditions, they are a less than what the pilot groups of EAA,SAA and SSA would except if Qantas had given them the 717s. There is no point in blaming the Impulse pilots for what happened, Qantas made a business decision
Instead of trying to gain slots on the 717 the pilot groups at EAA, SAA and SSA should work together and look at the future. Think back 10-12 years ago, and look at what types of aircraft each of these regionals were operating. EAA had E110s, J31s and Dash 8s. SAA had C404s,Shorts 360 ? and Dash 8s. SSA had DHC6s, Shorts 330/360s and Dash 8s. So now what are these airlines operating, all Dash 8s plus 3 BA146s (at least for a few more months). So in 10 years these airlines have gone from operating large fleets of 19 seat or less aircraft to large fleets of 36-50 seat aircraft. 10 years ago the travelling public was happy to fly around in these smaller aircraft but now in 2002 they expect more and now the travelling public when flying Qantas are flying on 36-50 seat aircraft. So want will the travelling public expect in 5-10 years time, they will expect what those in the USA are getting now 'Regional Jets'. The first generation of RJ's are almost 10 years old now and with the introduction of the larger 70 seat aircraft starting to take place, many of the smaller 50 seat aircraft are entering the used aircraft market and the price of these aircraft is dropping. In 5 years time you will be able to buy a second hand ERJ-145 for the same price (if not less) than a Dash 8-300. In 5-10 years time the Qantaslink turboprop operation (Dash 8s) will expand to include a 50 seat RJ operation. Markets such as SY-CH, SY-BNA, SY -TW, SY-WG, SY-AY, SY-DU, BN-NTL, BN-GLA, BN-EMD, BN-LRE, ML-MIA,ML-DPO etc are routes that in 5-10 years could be operated by RJs. At a guess the average age of most of the Dash 8 pilots within Qantaslink would be 30-35. So if all the pilot groups work together they will get the chance to fly jet equipment.
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I too work at the pulse, hence the sarcastic remark on the other thread re intergration huge I was joking...take your blood pressure pills!!!
I have reviewed the propsal and I along with more than light it up would agree to acknowledge, have differing views to him.
go ahead the phase 1's.....you idiot go back to the 1900....loser.
DO NOTjudge the impulse view on this caught in the past phase one idiot. No wonder impulse is considered lucky, fools like you drag us into the mud.
I have reviewed the propsal and I along with more than light it up would agree to acknowledge, have differing views to him.
go ahead the phase 1's.....you idiot go back to the 1900....loser.
DO NOTjudge the impulse view on this caught in the past phase one idiot. No wonder impulse is considered lucky, fools like you drag us into the mud.
Last edited by flyswat; 25th Sep 2002 at 03:59.
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Hey Flyswat, are you serious? if you are I don't think many pulse boys and girls agree with you.
Lightitup, is right on the money.
Having a dig at one of your own? Where do you get off on that?
RE: your last post - say again all after "I have reviewed the prop(o)sal..."
Lightitup, is right on the money.
Having a dig at one of your own? Where do you get off on that?
RE: your last post - say again all after "I have reviewed the prop(o)sal..."
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Redeployment of the B1900 drivers into the Dash 8 fleet, is a difficult issue and one which I'm sure has been examined thoroughly.
To repeat what may have already been said - while such a decision rests with management alone, it is conceivable that 2 obstacles exist prohibiting the option - an unquestionable loss of training investment when eventual expansion recalls redundant flight crew; the potential industrial issue of Impulse flight crew enjoying non-reciprocal employment rights (until mutual Agreements are formulated). Hypothetically, if a Dash 8 crewmember is made redundant, would he currently be entitled to the first available B717 F/O position? Many SAA pilots face that very situation equally with no reciprocal rights - it is a complex argument which will have no solution until a formal policy is put in place, dare I say it, by closer co-operation of all Qantaslink flight crew.
To reflect on the concerns of redundant B1900 crew - I'm confident that your futures with Impulse are assured and well within the 3 year guarantee period - stay positive.
I hope that any other concerns in relation to the proposed Agreement are constructively addressed to the IPC negotiating team for future resolution.
To repeat what may have already been said - while such a decision rests with management alone, it is conceivable that 2 obstacles exist prohibiting the option - an unquestionable loss of training investment when eventual expansion recalls redundant flight crew; the potential industrial issue of Impulse flight crew enjoying non-reciprocal employment rights (until mutual Agreements are formulated). Hypothetically, if a Dash 8 crewmember is made redundant, would he currently be entitled to the first available B717 F/O position? Many SAA pilots face that very situation equally with no reciprocal rights - it is a complex argument which will have no solution until a formal policy is put in place, dare I say it, by closer co-operation of all Qantaslink flight crew.
To reflect on the concerns of redundant B1900 crew - I'm confident that your futures with Impulse are assured and well within the 3 year guarantee period - stay positive.
I hope that any other concerns in relation to the proposed Agreement are constructively addressed to the IPC negotiating team for future resolution.
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bentandtwisted and ESS102, "2 thumbs up" for the most informative look into this issue. Your predictions of the future are just as likely as any of the "slit your wrists" variety. Alot of mud gets thrown around on these forums, so I just had to make it a point to say thanks.
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BAH Humbug.......forget it. If he is at the pulse he'll know what I mean.
Having a go at one of our own? I thought I was allowed to sport an opinion? maybe I'm on the communist pprune?
Having a go at one of our own? I thought I was allowed to sport an opinion? maybe I'm on the communist pprune?
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Well what can one say... It would appear that I stand corrected. My esteemed colleague Won Tok has shown me the light...
I had no idea that everyone at the pulse was so keen on intergration.
You would be the first in the company to be for the proposal.
Kinda makes it hard to believe that you do work the pulse...
And if you do we really should start talking to who does the hiring....
I had no idea that everyone at the pulse was so keen on intergration.
You would be the first in the company to be for the proposal.
Kinda makes it hard to believe that you do work the pulse...
And if you do we really should start talking to who does the hiring....
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Hey Flyswat, yes everyone is entitled to their opinion but if you want to write someting like that, how about putting your post on Qrewroom. If you want call one of your fellow workers(if that is what you are!), a loser then do it then do it properly!
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Wednesday September 25, 12:16 PM
Qantas/Fleet Upgrade -2: Speaking To Reporters
SYDNEY (Dow Jones)--Qantas Airways Ltd. (A.QAN) chief executive Geoff Dixon said Wednesday that the national carrier will make a decision on the upgrade of its domestic regional operation QantasLink early next year.
But Dixon, speaking to reporters after a luncheon address to the Australia-Israeli Chamber of Commerce, had no comment when asked about the progress of a A$4.20 a share offer to retail investors that closes Friday and has been forecast to raise A$200 million. Institutional investors recently subscribed for A$600 million at this price.
With concerns about another Gulf War and higher fuel prices, the stock has slumped to a current low of A$3.72.
In his speech, Dixon said Qantas is also considering spending more money to upgrade its Australian regional operations.
"One of the next important decisions that Qantas will face is a possible A$2 billion re-equipment of the QantasLink fleet over the next 10 years to sustain and grow regional services," he said.
-By Lilly Vitorovich; Dow Jones Newswires;
61-2-8235-2963; [email protected]
Qantas/Fleet Upgrade -2: Speaking To Reporters
SYDNEY (Dow Jones)--Qantas Airways Ltd. (A.QAN) chief executive Geoff Dixon said Wednesday that the national carrier will make a decision on the upgrade of its domestic regional operation QantasLink early next year.
But Dixon, speaking to reporters after a luncheon address to the Australia-Israeli Chamber of Commerce, had no comment when asked about the progress of a A$4.20 a share offer to retail investors that closes Friday and has been forecast to raise A$200 million. Institutional investors recently subscribed for A$600 million at this price.
With concerns about another Gulf War and higher fuel prices, the stock has slumped to a current low of A$3.72.
In his speech, Dixon said Qantas is also considering spending more money to upgrade its Australian regional operations.
"One of the next important decisions that Qantas will face is a possible A$2 billion re-equipment of the QantasLink fleet over the next 10 years to sustain and grow regional services," he said.
-By Lilly Vitorovich; Dow Jones Newswires;
61-2-8235-2963; [email protected]
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Light it up - Hey I agree with everything you said, I am in no way for intergration as I can not see the benefits for the pulse.
I may have misunderstood flyswats post - not too hard to do. I just don't think he should be ditching on 1900 Drivers!
A side line approach I think would be prudent to see what comes of the intergration proposal for the pulse.
ESSI02 - Wasn't the command from the top, integration for EAA and SAA only? Why would Impulse want integration? Why would Qantas want integration?
Impulse have an excellent pilot culture and considering integration assures all other QF regional pilots progression to 717's should they choose, Impluse may not desire some of these militant types on the flight deck. ie bypassing the selection process.
I may have misunderstood flyswats post - not too hard to do. I just don't think he should be ditching on 1900 Drivers!
A side line approach I think would be prudent to see what comes of the intergration proposal for the pulse.
ESSI02 - Wasn't the command from the top, integration for EAA and SAA only? Why would Impulse want integration? Why would Qantas want integration?
Impulse have an excellent pilot culture and considering integration assures all other QF regional pilots progression to 717's should they choose, Impluse may not desire some of these militant types on the flight deck. ie bypassing the selection process.
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firstly I was not ditching on 1900 pilots.
That was the first mis-conception.
second, I was merely showing my contempt for a fellow workers narrow minded view.
But who really cares anyway...we are after all only shootin the sh!t, I mean lets face it as if the evil empire are going to allow this. Surely this would undermine the fact that impulse are QF's leg into the low cost structure that would continue to fatten the pockets of the exec's.
I think that a bigger bat might be better for all as we march into the future.
I hope this clears up my previous post.
That was the first mis-conception.
second, I was merely showing my contempt for a fellow workers narrow minded view.
But who really cares anyway...we are after all only shootin the sh!t, I mean lets face it as if the evil empire are going to allow this. Surely this would undermine the fact that impulse are QF's leg into the low cost structure that would continue to fatten the pockets of the exec's.
I think that a bigger bat might be better for all as we march into the future.
I hope this clears up my previous post.
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I'm allright, Jack.
Looks like we're heading down that path.
Hypothetically, I wonder how certain individuals on this thread would feel if they found out that there were no more B-XYZ's coming to Australia, and that the Evil Empire decided that the way of the future was EMB170's and they were going to ABC airlines (neither of the current jet operators)?
Pity, because if an integration deal had been stitched up, it may have had benefits for the whole group, not just ABC's pilot group.
You lot have a lot to learn. ESSI02 is a lot closer to the action than you know, and speaks a lot of sense.
I'm allright Jack
Hypothetically, I wonder how certain individuals on this thread would feel if they found out that there were no more B-XYZ's coming to Australia, and that the Evil Empire decided that the way of the future was EMB170's and they were going to ABC airlines (neither of the current jet operators)?
Pity, because if an integration deal had been stitched up, it may have had benefits for the whole group, not just ABC's pilot group.
You lot have a lot to learn. ESSI02 is a lot closer to the action than you know, and speaks a lot of sense.
I'm allright Jack
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Integration by nature has the potential to introduce benefits and disadvantages for both management and flight crews, the scope is vast and the 'greys' initially overrun the 'black-and-whites'. The resolution rests within the ability to find optimal middle ground and balancing the pros and cons around this generic focal point.
Negotiations so far have addressed the perceived inequity by placing current Impulse flight crew ahead of all other Qantaslink flight crew in their rights and privileges permanently.
Despite this, there's been a lot of expressions of "nothing in it for us" sentiment and "what if we get something bigger". As already stated, the problem with that view is that you're unable to know or measure exactly how much better or worse off you will be without the venerable crystal ball.
A perfect example: much of the debate has been focussed on the "what-if's" of a larger aircraft down the track - how do you now feel about the handling of a smaller aircraft introduction? Should Impulse crews be excluded from this potential opportunity, in compliance with their own set of conditions?
The passing of a day, a news report concerning regional expenditure and the potential future career landscape changes once again.
A single group of Qantaslink flight crew from which to draw resource, paralleling the single group of mainline flight crew, will reasonably address most potential future difficulties.
Some comment has been passed on management's willingness to adopt such a view. Discussions such as these are certainly undertaken at a higher level than this forum and should remain so. Here too however, the advantages must outweigh the disadvantages and a case can be made in support of this.
Company culture, work ethic, militancy?
I'd suggest that a turboprop flight crew member, stagnant in their career opportunities and restricted in income-earning capacity, yet conversant with company procedures, would prove to be a compliant and self-satisfied employee in the long term and a perfect candidate - by contrast, a remarkable upward-moving career path earns small merit to the individual as a true test of the virtues of a devoted employee.
Militant, a convenient and unfounded description, if the facts are examined.
Negotiations so far have addressed the perceived inequity by placing current Impulse flight crew ahead of all other Qantaslink flight crew in their rights and privileges permanently.
Despite this, there's been a lot of expressions of "nothing in it for us" sentiment and "what if we get something bigger". As already stated, the problem with that view is that you're unable to know or measure exactly how much better or worse off you will be without the venerable crystal ball.
A perfect example: much of the debate has been focussed on the "what-if's" of a larger aircraft down the track - how do you now feel about the handling of a smaller aircraft introduction? Should Impulse crews be excluded from this potential opportunity, in compliance with their own set of conditions?
The passing of a day, a news report concerning regional expenditure and the potential future career landscape changes once again.
A single group of Qantaslink flight crew from which to draw resource, paralleling the single group of mainline flight crew, will reasonably address most potential future difficulties.
Some comment has been passed on management's willingness to adopt such a view. Discussions such as these are certainly undertaken at a higher level than this forum and should remain so. Here too however, the advantages must outweigh the disadvantages and a case can be made in support of this.
Company culture, work ethic, militancy?
I'd suggest that a turboprop flight crew member, stagnant in their career opportunities and restricted in income-earning capacity, yet conversant with company procedures, would prove to be a compliant and self-satisfied employee in the long term and a perfect candidate - by contrast, a remarkable upward-moving career path earns small merit to the individual as a true test of the virtues of a devoted employee.
Militant, a convenient and unfounded description, if the facts are examined.
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essio2, reference the type of future aircraft it is not really a case of introduction of bigger jets, the big problem is that if there was a change of type operated current pulse drivers will be relegated to the back of the line. Like it or not Impulse is the current and most likely future jet operator and therefore we (I) would rather see some jet protection not just B717 protection and than I would start thinking integration might be worthwhile. As far as if new jets go to company abc we would be just as screwed if integration went ahead or not.