CASA considering cockpit recorders in ALL aircraft
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Strathallan, Relaxed, Scotland
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CASA considering cockpit recorders in ALL aircraft
This appeared on the ABC news, Posted: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 0:20 AEST
QUOTE
CASA to investigate light plane recorders after 'ghost flight'
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) says it will investigate the feasibility of installing flight recorders in all small aircraft in Australia.
It follows recommendations from the Western Australian coroner investigating a plane crash, which killed seven mine workers and a pilot.
The plane, heading for the Goldfields town of Leonora, flew across the country on autopilot before crashing on a remote Queensland property.
Coroner Alastair Hope says if there had been some sort of inflight recording device, many answers about the crash could have been available.
CASA spokesman Peter Gibson says fitting all light aircraft with the devices would be expensive.
"Currently these small aircraft are not built with flight recorders in them," Mr Gibson said. ..."
UNQUOTE
The stage is now set for CASA to "suddenly discover" that video recorders are not expensive at all - they are fitted to many Sydney Taxis already.
This proposal combines in a very sinister way with the Transport Safety Investigation Bill, which is to be debated in the House next Wednesday, 18th September. That Bill robs cockpit recordings of the protection they should have and will allow tremendous abuse.
Why do we Australians allow ourselves to be assaulted like this? It's one thing to play a recording tyo find out what happened after all aboard are dead. It is quite another to empower a bureaucrat to seize a tape after a completely uneventful flight on the basis of an anonymous, malicious, and false phone call.
Airliners have voice recorders which only record the last 30 minutes of conversation. What we private owners are looking at here is video recorders which record the entire flight (because the Coroner found everyone died during the first 20 minutes, but the plane flew on for many hours, so a 30-minute voice recorder would have captured nothing at all).
I urge every Australian pilot to oppose the Transport Safety Investigation Bill. Fax or e-mail AIR SAFETY AUSTRALIA and we'll tell you how to do so effectively.
Boyd Munro
AIR SAFETY AUSTRALIA
Phone:08 8357 9596 Fax:02 9225 9127 E-mail: [email protected]
QUOTE
CASA to investigate light plane recorders after 'ghost flight'
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) says it will investigate the feasibility of installing flight recorders in all small aircraft in Australia.
It follows recommendations from the Western Australian coroner investigating a plane crash, which killed seven mine workers and a pilot.
The plane, heading for the Goldfields town of Leonora, flew across the country on autopilot before crashing on a remote Queensland property.
Coroner Alastair Hope says if there had been some sort of inflight recording device, many answers about the crash could have been available.
CASA spokesman Peter Gibson says fitting all light aircraft with the devices would be expensive.
"Currently these small aircraft are not built with flight recorders in them," Mr Gibson said. ..."
UNQUOTE
The stage is now set for CASA to "suddenly discover" that video recorders are not expensive at all - they are fitted to many Sydney Taxis already.
This proposal combines in a very sinister way with the Transport Safety Investigation Bill, which is to be debated in the House next Wednesday, 18th September. That Bill robs cockpit recordings of the protection they should have and will allow tremendous abuse.
Why do we Australians allow ourselves to be assaulted like this? It's one thing to play a recording tyo find out what happened after all aboard are dead. It is quite another to empower a bureaucrat to seize a tape after a completely uneventful flight on the basis of an anonymous, malicious, and false phone call.
Airliners have voice recorders which only record the last 30 minutes of conversation. What we private owners are looking at here is video recorders which record the entire flight (because the Coroner found everyone died during the first 20 minutes, but the plane flew on for many hours, so a 30-minute voice recorder would have captured nothing at all).
I urge every Australian pilot to oppose the Transport Safety Investigation Bill. Fax or e-mail AIR SAFETY AUSTRALIA and we'll tell you how to do so effectively.
Boyd Munro
AIR SAFETY AUSTRALIA
Phone:08 8357 9596 Fax:02 9225 9127 E-mail: [email protected]
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Oz
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Torres
Don't worry. Read the press release critically. CASA say it will be very expensive. It won't happen below RPT.
Just anothe BM beatup to grab headlined and panick the flock. Typical really.
Chuck
Don't worry. Read the press release critically. CASA say it will be very expensive. It won't happen below RPT.
Just anothe BM beatup to grab headlined and panick the flock. Typical really.
Chuck
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: YBBN
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ulm
Ah…but it has happened already. Any aircraft with a MTOW above 5700 kg that is turbine powered shall not be flown unless it is equipped with an approved cockpit voice recorder system (CAO 20.18 para 6.1 refers.)
Therefore such aircraft even though operated privately must be so equipped.
Don't worry. Read the press release critically. CASA say it will be very expensive. It won't happen below RPT.
Therefore such aircraft even though operated privately must be so equipped.
Last edited by Blue Hauler; 13th Sep 2002 at 11:04.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Bai, mi go long hap na kisim sampla samting.
Posts: 2,849
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If things keep going the way they are we wont have anything below RPT any way. they seem to be systematically closing down charter and small operators with there rules and regs and "soft target" attacks.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Oz
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
wiz
You are right there, But there is an organisation doing the hard work, commenting on Part 121B, commenting in the press and lobbying Govt. That is the way to change stuff.
There is another organisation running around with headline banners
"All aircraft must have wings"
Panick panick, write to the Minister, P!ss off his staff. Make a bl@@dy fool of yourself. Scream wail and thrash, make personal attacks on Toller. But never never try to understand the issues or negotiate rationally.
Then once we, F-FA, beat this evil regulation we can claim credit for everything anyone else does.
And then we will come back and change it all next year when you have all forgotten.
Boring Moron.
Flight Farce Australia
You are right there, But there is an organisation doing the hard work, commenting on Part 121B, commenting in the press and lobbying Govt. That is the way to change stuff.
There is another organisation running around with headline banners
"All aircraft must have wings"
Panick panick, write to the Minister, P!ss off his staff. Make a bl@@dy fool of yourself. Scream wail and thrash, make personal attacks on Toller. But never never try to understand the issues or negotiate rationally.
Then once we, F-FA, beat this evil regulation we can claim credit for everything anyone else does.
And then we will come back and change it all next year when you have all forgotten.
Boring Moron.
Flight Farce Australia
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Strathallan, Relaxed, Scotland
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello Ulm,
Just so you are aware of the facts.
1. AIR SAFETY AUSTRALIA has never made a personal attack on Mr. Toller.
2. AIR SAFETY AUSTRALIA does not urge its members to write to the Minister - and that's not because we are afraid of irritating his staff. We urge our members to write to their own MP because that gets better results.
3. The kinds of issues that we fight, such as the nasty provisions in the TSI Bill, the proposal to put recorders in ALL aircraft, require leaders who are prepared - when necessary - to be called fools, and to sing a different tune from that sung by CASA and its Choir of Quislings. AIR SAFETY AUSTRALIA's only consideration is the interest of its members.
4. AIR SAFETY AUSTRALIA always analyses issues very carefully and understands them. Our negotiations are always rational, but we do not shrink from using such weapons as are at our command to re-inforce them
Anyone who is concerned about having every word uttered in the cockpit of a private aircraft being compulsorily tape recorded should contact AIR SAFETY AUSTRALIA to take part in organised, effective opposition to this proposal.
Boyd Munro
AIR SAFETY AUSTRALIA
Phone:08 8357 9596 Fax:02 9225 9127 E-mail: [email protected]
Just so you are aware of the facts.
1. AIR SAFETY AUSTRALIA has never made a personal attack on Mr. Toller.
2. AIR SAFETY AUSTRALIA does not urge its members to write to the Minister - and that's not because we are afraid of irritating his staff. We urge our members to write to their own MP because that gets better results.
3. The kinds of issues that we fight, such as the nasty provisions in the TSI Bill, the proposal to put recorders in ALL aircraft, require leaders who are prepared - when necessary - to be called fools, and to sing a different tune from that sung by CASA and its Choir of Quislings. AIR SAFETY AUSTRALIA's only consideration is the interest of its members.
4. AIR SAFETY AUSTRALIA always analyses issues very carefully and understands them. Our negotiations are always rational, but we do not shrink from using such weapons as are at our command to re-inforce them
Anyone who is concerned about having every word uttered in the cockpit of a private aircraft being compulsorily tape recorded should contact AIR SAFETY AUSTRALIA to take part in organised, effective opposition to this proposal.
Boyd Munro
AIR SAFETY AUSTRALIA
Phone:08 8357 9596 Fax:02 9225 9127 E-mail: [email protected]
Last edited by Boyd Munro; 13th Sep 2002 at 16:59.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: YBBN
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Boyd,
Just a touch melodramatic there old chap. Every aircraft I have operated with a CVR records just the past thirty minutes of cockpit voice and sounds. They all carry an erase button that may be depressed after landing to completely erase the tape (or chip in the more modern units). Not a ‘big brother’ device at all!
I understand in the Lear accident that claimed the life of Paines Stewart the CVR was useless as the occupants were deceased during the last thirty minutes, and such would probably have been the case in the B200 incident. But no doubt the CVR is an effective tool in accident investigation and therefore must have preventative capabilities.
Anyone who is concerned about having every word uttered in the cockpit of a private aircraft being compulsorily tape recorded...
I understand in the Lear accident that claimed the life of Paines Stewart the CVR was useless as the occupants were deceased during the last thirty minutes, and such would probably have been the case in the B200 incident. But no doubt the CVR is an effective tool in accident investigation and therefore must have preventative capabilities.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Strathallan, Relaxed, Scotland
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What Coroner Hope wants
Hello Blue Hauler,
VH-SKC flew on for many hours after Coroner Hope found that all occupants were dead.
What Coroner Hope wants is some sort of recording device that will provide answers, and one which held only the last 30 minutes would not have provided any. He has asked for a new kind of device.
What CASA is going to discover is that 12-hour audio/video recorders are now widely available and affordable - indeed thay are already in a large proportion of Sydney's taxi fleet. And, let's face it, an audio recorder is not usually going to be of much use in a single-crew aircraft - you'll need a video recorder as well.
There is real risk here.
Boyd Munro
VH-SKC flew on for many hours after Coroner Hope found that all occupants were dead.
What Coroner Hope wants is some sort of recording device that will provide answers, and one which held only the last 30 minutes would not have provided any. He has asked for a new kind of device.
What CASA is going to discover is that 12-hour audio/video recorders are now widely available and affordable - indeed thay are already in a large proportion of Sydney's taxi fleet. And, let's face it, an audio recorder is not usually going to be of much use in a single-crew aircraft - you'll need a video recorder as well.
There is real risk here.
Boyd Munro
Last edited by Boyd Munro; 13th Sep 2002 at 16:54.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: NSW
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What Boyd said is correct.
Beware........"we are here to help you".
If you think that big business is not going to use every tool available to win their case in a legal action and investigation then you are wrong.
Wait until you are in the witness box, in which I have had several experiences - both as a target and and a contributor - and watch how the smallest of statements, movements, inuendos can be manipulated - and not in the interest of flight saferty!
The NZ Dash 8 saga should be warning enough.
And hasn't our indsutry been brutalised enough.
We all make mistakes and heaven forbid when the time comes that we are brought to account for a genuine human failing through the conduit of a voice/flight/video recorder used for prosecution which is totally counter-productive to genuine flight safety.
And please, please be nice. Being jerk=like is un-nice isn't it?
Beware........"we are here to help you".
If you think that big business is not going to use every tool available to win their case in a legal action and investigation then you are wrong.
Wait until you are in the witness box, in which I have had several experiences - both as a target and and a contributor - and watch how the smallest of statements, movements, inuendos can be manipulated - and not in the interest of flight saferty!
The NZ Dash 8 saga should be warning enough.
And hasn't our indsutry been brutalised enough.
We all make mistakes and heaven forbid when the time comes that we are brought to account for a genuine human failing through the conduit of a voice/flight/video recorder used for prosecution which is totally counter-productive to genuine flight safety.
And please, please be nice. Being jerk=like is un-nice isn't it?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr or Ms Ulm,
"Panick panick, write to the Minister, P!ss off his staff. Make a bl@@dy fool of yourself."
After receiving a request from Air Safety Australia to write to my local MP, I did so, and within a week, the Minister decided to allow the use of TAFMs to continue to be used and get rid of this stupid idea to use manufacturers' AFMs (some near impossible to obtain, or at least very costly) in lieu of TAFMs.
Or is this outcome just a coincidence?
"Panick panick, write to the Minister, P!ss off his staff. Make a bl@@dy fool of yourself."
After receiving a request from Air Safety Australia to write to my local MP, I did so, and within a week, the Minister decided to allow the use of TAFMs to continue to be used and get rid of this stupid idea to use manufacturers' AFMs (some near impossible to obtain, or at least very costly) in lieu of TAFMs.
Or is this outcome just a coincidence?
