PIC command authority
In short you are covered if something out of your control inadvertently puts you into a situation that requires you to break a law. However you can not push on into known weather, or through a known flock of birds, fly with known aircraft issues that could affect safety, and expect to be completely exonerated. If during the Investigation there is evidence of criminal or negligent behavior then that info may/will be passed on to law enforcement agencies to look into. If you are found to have contributed to the situation in some manner that's less than criminal or pure neglect then civil action may be available to those physically or financially affected. The ATSB may not concern themselves with legal matters, but if the report hints you created the problem then the lawyers will use that information to dig. Advice = Stay away from legal grey areas, operate well within the law, take being PIC seriously.
And same with me, the legal burden does not bother me at all, because it only applies if you 'sail too close to the wind'. The road is far more of a legal minefield. And most of us will speed, rush around pushing yellow lights, even use the phone whilst driving at some point, and if you happen to crash in any of those scenarios and injure somebody you could be in a world of legal hurt. Luckily in Australia the road system has the TAC and strict insurance requirements or it would be very nasty for many. I've been involved in a number of aviation incidents, none of which have gone beyond ATSB interest. However I do know a few unlucky souls that have made simple mistakes, that could easily have been avoided and ended up with large financial burdens.
I’m just trying to explain how the regulatory regime works (and stay sane), in response to the OP's 'simple' question. Nearly 40 years in, none of the above has ever bothered me when I’m flying. As the earlier poster said: “I have no hesitation in confidently exercising the full privileges of a PIC”. None of the above matters. Until it does.
Last edited by 43Inches; 14th Jan 2024 at 23:47.
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Not entirely related to thread, but a good example of what happens when you do break the law and death and injury is a result. The driver of the Hunter Valley bus crash has just had his charge count increased and upgraded to 10 counts of Manslaughter, among 80 odd other charges. My initial thoughts was that the driver has not shown much remorse over the occurrence which I will not label an accident, so the charges just keep piling on as the investigation continues. Sounds like he may be spending a long time in jail over a situation he could have easily avoided. He may not have even been speeding when the bus toppled (most likely was significantly over the corner speed for that vehicle), but his actions leading up to the crash have definitely hung, drawn and quartered him.
PS If you do drive road vehicles where passengers can stand up and will not listen to your demands to sit down and buckle up, pull over and don't move until they comply. As driver, like the PIC of an aircraft you are responsible for the occupants. When they are non compliant it just makes the situation complicated.
PS If you do drive road vehicles where passengers can stand up and will not listen to your demands to sit down and buckle up, pull over and don't move until they comply. As driver, like the PIC of an aircraft you are responsible for the occupants. When they are non compliant it just makes the situation complicated.
Last edited by 43Inches; 15th Jan 2024 at 23:39.
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Nothing I've added is about 'expert commentary', however if one pilot reads this and decides not to push low cloud down the valley of death today on the basis of using 'stress of weather' as a defence, then I'm happy.
Tell you what - I do enjoy reading about our legal system at times. Why's that? Well, 16 of the charges to which 43I refers are "drive furiously in motor vehicle causing bodily harm". That's something I've never heard of before in NSW, so I Google'd it, and the legislation is so quaint it makes me smile.
oGoogle also found this YT showing the roundabout in question not long after it happened, showing the route he's taken. If ol' mate in his car has to go that slow round there, makes you wonder just what the goose in the bus was thinking!
And now, back to your regularly scheduled thread derailment!
CRIMES ACT 1900 - SECT 53
Injuries by furious driving etc
53 Injuries by furious driving etc
Whosoever, being at the time on horseback, or in charge of any carriage or other vehicle, by wanton or furious riding, or driving, or racing, or other misconduct, or by wilful neglect, does or causes to be done to any person any bodily harm, shall be liable to imprisonment for two years.
Injuries by furious driving etc
53 Injuries by furious driving etc
Whosoever, being at the time on horseback, or in charge of any carriage or other vehicle, by wanton or furious riding, or driving, or racing, or other misconduct, or by wilful neglect, does or causes to be done to any person any bodily harm, shall be liable to imprisonment for two years.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled thread derailment!
oGoogle also found this YT showing the roundabout in question not long after it happened, showing the route he's taken. If ol' mate in his car has to go that slow round there, makes you wonder just what the goose in the bus was thinking!
Anyway, big thread drift....
My point in including it, was not just for the legal issues that are arising from this crash, but also I hope that there will be some insight into the human factors. What caused the bus driver to drive so 'furiously', abandon the law, and drive well beyond his abilities, was it habitual, was he set off by the passengers not complying, etc etc. I wonder if there is anything that can be crossed over to aviation to use, to learn from, about slowing down, and taking it easy when things get aggravating, not as you want. Was there a hint of 'hurry up' I'll just get them to the destination as fast as possible and get rid of this mob, was it just a bad day for him, who knows...
Anyway, big thread drift....
Anyway, big thread drift....
Anyways....In terms of what we can learn from that in an aviation environment, there's probably several factors, including needing the skillset to not allow passengers to get under your skin. Now that's probably not a huge issue for most airline pilots granted, but for cabin crew and gate agents, it's a different story. How often have we seen reports of SLF being off-loaded because they've done or said something the CC didn't like, and then the FA's gone on a power trip? That Doctor in the US who was offloaded and beaten because they "needed" to have a deadheading crew on the flight and didn't give a damn about what the Doctor needed. Our way or the highway! was the mentality, and no one seemed to consider asking if anyone else would be happy to get off. And look where that little incident took the airline!
Another aspect could well be being less prone to impulsivity and along with that knowing the limits of your vehicle - be it an airborne one or not. There was no need for him to go that hard round the roundabout, but by the same token, if he had needed to, say to try to expedite medical attention for a passenger or something, you need a better idea of what you can do with your vehicle. Again, for us, we have SOP's and the like, but what happens when you have an uncontained cabin fire? Would you stop your nose-down input at the barberpole, or would you go a bit beyond? How far beyond is safe? Have you read the certification standards to know what your 737 has actually been tested to - not just what the ASI says is the limit?
Finally, and most importantly, as the boating mantra goes, "You're the Skipper - You're responsible!"
