EBA negotiations...a hypothetical?
You have to remember this is the same AFAP mafia that brought Sunstate and Eastern pilots the ‘Spill and Fill’, remember that? Where all pilots Rank, Base and Type was magically dissolved for 10 days, whilst the AFAP and the company reordered your life.
The same characters in a conflicted drama that involves using Sunstate, Eastern and Network pilots as canon fodder in a Qantas subsidiary PIA strategy. Nothing to do with flexing muscle to AIPA pilots in the vein hope for membership at Qantas, with Short Haul EBA open and Long Haul soon to be.
Isn’t the President of AFAP a Sunstate Committee member and the approval process for PIA requires AFAP Executive voting from pilots that work for competitor airlines? Sound like a conflict of interest? Surely not…
How do Bargaining Reps working for the Sunstate and Eastern pilots fail to take a $17 an Hour DHA (50-60%) increase offer from the company in favour of the Lead Negotiators DHAA lifestyle enhancement. Taking money out of the pockets of members who pay for that privilege.
Now there are no Roadshows, we are in a rush to avoid scrutiny and blow back from the pilots around FO pay and DHA. Dial in to your committee…is what you get for your membership.
This treatment of hard working Sunstate pilots by the same characters trying to take advantage of their work mates has a long history. Australian Industrial Relations Commission; AFAP V Sunstate 1996 (N5169).
The same characters in a conflicted drama that involves using Sunstate, Eastern and Network pilots as canon fodder in a Qantas subsidiary PIA strategy. Nothing to do with flexing muscle to AIPA pilots in the vein hope for membership at Qantas, with Short Haul EBA open and Long Haul soon to be.
Isn’t the President of AFAP a Sunstate Committee member and the approval process for PIA requires AFAP Executive voting from pilots that work for competitor airlines? Sound like a conflict of interest? Surely not…
How do Bargaining Reps working for the Sunstate and Eastern pilots fail to take a $17 an Hour DHA (50-60%) increase offer from the company in favour of the Lead Negotiators DHAA lifestyle enhancement. Taking money out of the pockets of members who pay for that privilege.
Now there are no Roadshows, we are in a rush to avoid scrutiny and blow back from the pilots around FO pay and DHA. Dial in to your committee…is what you get for your membership.
This treatment of hard working Sunstate pilots by the same characters trying to take advantage of their work mates has a long history. Australian Industrial Relations Commission; AFAP V Sunstate 1996 (N5169).
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the committee's behaviour around the spill was shameful, a beautiful case of doesn't affect us, so you are on your own. especially for those that were going to be forced out of their base
And don't forget those captains that lost their rank, yes they were Direct Entry captains (ex-sunnies in at least one case) but they had legally enforceable contracts that would have been upheld at the FWC...but for some unexplained reason the AFAP and Sunstate committee chose to endorse the arrangement. Rumour has it that a particular senior Cairns based captain was the architect of the 'Spill'.
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I’m completely confused. I got an email saying we had to show the company how angry we are, then all of a sudden a short message that we were going to be in principle and now radio silence.
It seems almost everyone in ADL feels like they have been completely forgotten about again. The unborn will get their 18 months freeze and won’t be able to bid across to Qld. Combine that insult with DHAA which will only really benefit CNS more than anyone. Apparently Eastern were offered a DHA increase of 50%, ADL would have every right to be upset. A lot of drivers in BNE seem unhappy as well and I’ve heard the classic drivers in SYD are fuming that it wasn’t taken.
Such a divisive payment, surely it’s not going to change any rostering practices?
It seems almost everyone in ADL feels like they have been completely forgotten about again. The unborn will get their 18 months freeze and won’t be able to bid across to Qld. Combine that insult with DHAA which will only really benefit CNS more than anyone. Apparently Eastern were offered a DHA increase of 50%, ADL would have every right to be upset. A lot of drivers in BNE seem unhappy as well and I’ve heard the classic drivers in SYD are fuming that it wasn’t taken.
Such a divisive payment, surely it’s not going to change any rostering practices?
This meant some DECs became FOs. Some people were forced to move base. Captains were demoted from the Q400 to the Classic and in some cases to FO.
COVID in 2020. To save money the classic fleet wasn't needed in QLD anymore, so they needed a way to work out how to reassign the Sunstate seniorty list because the Briz base was going all Q400. Similar thing with Eastern because they took the Q400s out of Victoria.
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And don't forget those captains that lost their rank, yes they were Direct Entry captains (ex-sunnies in at least one case) but they had legally enforceable contracts that would have been upheld at the FWC...but for some unexplained reason the AFAP and Sunstate committee chose to endorse the arrangement. Rumour has it that a particular senior Cairns based captain was the architect of the 'Spill'.
Been very quiet since the email late two Saturday’s ago which pretty much said “Hurry, hurry! We’ll get the zoom meetings organised so you can all vote yes and get your money!”
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Agreed. The radio silence has been deafening. I’ve heard from one of my mates down there that apparently down south 15-20% of Eastern is AIPA now and their bargaining reps are still trying for more. Something more is definitely needed, the mood around this deal doesn’t seem great.
AFAP?
No surprise about how the AFAP treats its members..sacrificing the v. many to benefit the v. few, has long been in its culture.
This would be o.k. if "the few" were "needy underdogs", (in typical Aussie tradition) but in their case, THEIR few form their "top elite"...
Shame on you AFAP....have you not learned anything in your long and once proud history of the true values that set you above all other unions? Your back door deals, brown paper bags and bully-boy tactics make you no better than blue collar unions these days.
How can you promote, without any check-measure, the imbecilic, misguided and disturbed ideals of one irelevant old-timer to the exclusion of the new-generation of pilots?
Aren't you ashamed and embarassed that it is only the MBF that now gives you any credibility or appeal? Remove this and membership would leave in droves..
You are so overdue for self-reflection..
This would be o.k. if "the few" were "needy underdogs", (in typical Aussie tradition) but in their case, THEIR few form their "top elite"...
Shame on you AFAP....have you not learned anything in your long and once proud history of the true values that set you above all other unions? Your back door deals, brown paper bags and bully-boy tactics make you no better than blue collar unions these days.
How can you promote, without any check-measure, the imbecilic, misguided and disturbed ideals of one irelevant old-timer to the exclusion of the new-generation of pilots?
Aren't you ashamed and embarassed that it is only the MBF that now gives you any credibility or appeal? Remove this and membership would leave in droves..
You are so overdue for self-reflection..
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Agreed. The radio silence has been deafening. I’ve heard from one of my mates down there that apparently down south 15-20% of Eastern is AIPA now and their bargaining reps are still trying for more. Something more is definitely needed, the mood around this deal doesn’t seem great.
short of it is, every EAA and SAA pilots position was “dissolved” or “spilled” and pilots were required to re-bid for a position. Several bases changed their fleet makeup.
This meant some DECs became FOs. Some people were forced to move base. Captains were demoted from the Q400 to the Classic and in some cases to FO.
This meant some DECs became FOs. Some people were forced to move base. Captains were demoted from the Q400 to the Classic and in some cases to FO.
AFAP or AIPA
Only time will tell if the EA's get voted up!
What it will bring to the fore is which union provides better service to its members.
AFAP have long ridden on the coattails of the MBF which no doubt is great benefit to those pilots who are able to receive a refund of the contributions made by the company (capped at 65K) upon reaching 20 years in the fund.
Union fees 1%
Legal is outsourced
AIPA Union fees 0.88% (FOC until CTL)
Established in house legal team with experience in negotiation of multiple QF agreements.
Stayed at the table during negotiations.
Keep working towards an effective agreement that wouldn't discriminate between pilots who preferred to do day duties rather than overnights.
Sure PIA gets managements attention, but given that they were quick to jump on an in principal agreement after getting a whopping vote to proceed with PIA I'm sure some of the AFAP membership will be a little disappointed with the outcome.
Both unions have their good and bad points it will be interesting to see if the membership leans from one side to the other in the wash-up !
What it will bring to the fore is which union provides better service to its members.
AFAP have long ridden on the coattails of the MBF which no doubt is great benefit to those pilots who are able to receive a refund of the contributions made by the company (capped at 65K) upon reaching 20 years in the fund.
Union fees 1%
Legal is outsourced
AIPA Union fees 0.88% (FOC until CTL)
Established in house legal team with experience in negotiation of multiple QF agreements.
Stayed at the table during negotiations.
Keep working towards an effective agreement that wouldn't discriminate between pilots who preferred to do day duties rather than overnights.
Sure PIA gets managements attention, but given that they were quick to jump on an in principal agreement after getting a whopping vote to proceed with PIA I'm sure some of the AFAP membership will be a little disappointed with the outcome.
Both unions have their good and bad points it will be interesting to see if the membership leans from one side to the other in the wash-up !
Remember the union is as good as its members.
It’s company reps who negotiate the agreements. The union is a collective of other pilots. The union with the most members and deeper pockets has the most clout when taking on a legal behemoth like Qantas.
So if it’s a bad result, it’s the company volunteers in the union. Not the union itself.
It’s company reps who negotiate the agreements. The union is a collective of other pilots. The union with the most members and deeper pockets has the most clout when taking on a legal behemoth like Qantas.
So if it’s a bad result, it’s the company volunteers in the union. Not the union itself.
After old mate kept the long of claims Supa secret it was funny to hear that the bravo afap committee just sent their log of claims to all their members. Slightly different degree of accountability there
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I think it would require a few of us to vote with our feet and take up membership there. I wouldn’t be surprised if some from ADL lead the charge, AFAP have forgotten there is even a base there. They have every right to feel this in principle is to suit an individual’s needs. Word around the traps is they are all leaning towards a no vote.
I think it would require a few of us to vote with our feet and take up membership there. I wouldn’t be surprised if some from ADL lead the charge, AFAP have forgotten there is even a base there. They have every right to feel this in principle is to suit an individual’s needs. Word around the traps is they are all leaning towards a no vote.
The timeless AIPA v AFAP argument is wasted time. Its not the name on the door (the door we fund, mind you) of the organisation that matters. It’s the people who sit on your council who will make a difference in the negotiations. Rather than splitting into two unions - which undermines your power….. Get a bunch of smart people together and replace the current dead wood with pilots who won’t just look out for themselves.
Make the company negotiate against people who can hold them to account - or even better, who aren’t too proud to call on a professional negotiator for help!
That’s how you will get change.