USAF C17 Close Call with Terrain YBCS - No ATC Available

[markis10]

Originally Posted by compressor stall

But in a normal first world country there would be ATC guidance / alerts that would have prevented this from escalating.

Where was the controller?

Given exercise mobility guardian was in operation in uncontrolled airspace at the time (4x C17s were at CNS) with the aim to employ in contested, degraded, and operationally limited environments I suspect there is nothing to see here.

[Blind Dog]

Originally Posted by topdrop

Many years ago a USAF KC135 on a Cairns for Cairns tanking mission departed at night and were very slow on the left turn and went very close to Mt Yarrabah, despite ATC telling them to tighten up the turn, terrain ahead. Crew visited ATC next day and we had a friendly chat. They reckoned they probably missed the hill by about 200 ft.

Hello Topdrop, I was the approach controller that night in Cairns. There was 2 KC135s and the first one was on the standard 15SID with the left turn on to 030. Once airborne they maintained rwy heading to approximately 2nm before commencing a lazy left turn which took the aircraft through the narrow gap between Mt Yarrabah and Mt Murray Prior with a lateral clearence from Mt Yarrabah of approximately 200feet but well below the peaks of both mountains.
The second 135s crew were given a rather extensive explanation of the 15SID by the ADC and then when they were airborne the aircraft flew an identical flight path to the first 135.
The weather at time was strong southerly winds with heavy rain.
All these years later and i still wonder if it was some sort pre programed track.

[Check_Thrust]

Originally Posted by compressor stall

Not mine to promúlgate…

Ok, but can you at least inform us of the date and time?

[The Banjo]

Originally Posted by markis10

Given exercise mobility guardian was in operation in uncontrolled airspace at the time (4x C17s were at CNS) with the aim to employ in contested, degraded, and operationally limited environments I suspect there is nothing to see here.

Yep, They came to the best place to experience degraded, and operationally limited environments. Free of charge from AirServices Orstralia.

[dr dre]

Originally Posted by compressor stall

No kidding. If it reported as true (and not a NVMC dep with toys we don’t get to play with) then yes the crew clearly had a moment, but this thread is not about them -

Who said the thread is not about them? The absence of ATC added another hole to the Swiss cheese, but responsibility for the safety of the flight comes down to the crew, and if they failed to read the big words on the chart in capital letters - DO NOT DELAY TURN DUE HIGH TERRAIN TO THE SOUTH EAST - then that’s ultimately their problem. Those procedures are there to be followed with or without ATC.

Originally Posted by compressor stall

But in a normal first world country there would be ATC guidance / alerts that would have prevented this from escalating.

The vast majority of airports in this nation do not have 24hr ATC - yet we can safely fly in and out of them if we follow the basic published procedures. How this crew failed to is the ultimate question.

[Lead Balloon]

Originally Posted by compressor stall

I’ve overlaid the screen grab onto the 1:250k topo and reckon they had 300’ of air under them.

Amazing coincidence. While doing some armchair commentary practice, I googled “C17” and “low flying”. Jigger me with a barge pole if I don’t come across numerous reference to joint US/RAAF exercises in C17As. A bright and bushy tailed RAAF Flight Lieutenant is quoted in one recent article (May 2023) as saying:

We’ve been flying 300 feet above the terrain at speeds around 400 to 500 km/hour, sometimes in two or three aircraft formations, and that provides lots of fun and it is challenging for the pilot skills,” he says.

Methinks fellow armchair commentator, markis10, may be on the money.

[compressor stall]

If this is an event (and I’m being told it was a regular milk run not an low level exercise, but I have no proof of that) we’ll likely never find out in a report what happened being US MIL. There could be some interesting HF NTS issues.

What this alleged event may outline is the first demonstrable event where the reported lack of ATC has reduced the barriers of safety leading to a near miss. That’s the critical safety issue here relevant yo Aus aviation. Even if you do fly airliners in Class G.

LB the path in the pic - if true - flown looks like a leisurely right turn onto a ~ 060 heading (can’t check exactly as on phone) , but very leisurely low AoB and wide radius putting it along shoreline and over rapidly rising land. Any wider and we’d have a different thread.

[VHOED191006]

Originally Posted by Blind Dog

Hello Topdrop, I was the approach controller that night in Cairns. There was 2 KC135s and the first one was on the standard 15SID with the left turn on to 030. Once airborne they maintained rwy heading to approximately 2nm before commencing a lazy left turn which took the aircraft through the narrow gap between Mt Yarrabah and Mt Murray Prior with a lateral clearence from Mt Yarrabah of approximately 200feet but well below the peaks of both mountains.
The second 135s crew were given a rather extensive explanation of the 15SID by the ADC and then when they were airborne the aircraft flew an identical flight path to the first 135.
The weather at time was strong southerly winds with heavy rain.
All these years later and i still wonder if it was some sort pre programed track.

Even if it's programmed, they should have realised that it is a REQUIREMENT to have a minimum AOB of 25 degrees, and that there's a speed restriction of 190kts. Isn't this what the industry has been trying to prevent - pilots becoming children of the magenta line? Judging by what has been reported above, this C-17 crew didn't obey those two requirements, lazily banking and accelerating to 250kts. Isn't this covered in the preflight briefing?

Also, someone said that this was a transport flight, not a training exercise - difference types of mission, no?

[Blind Dog]

I would like to see the flight path of the C17 compared to the KC135s.
My guess is they are identical

[Lead Balloon]

I’ve done some armchair research and come to the disturbing conclusion that these US people are flying these C17 aircraft all over the place. Apparently:

• The C-17 is operated by Air Mobility Command from Travis AFB, California; Dover AFB, Delaware. Joint Base Lewis-McChord, Washington; Joint Base Charleston, and Joint Base McGuire-Dix-Lakehurst, New Jersey.
• Pacific Air Forces operates C-17s from Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson, Alaska, and Joint Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam, Hawaii.
• The Air National Guard operates C-17s from Jackson, Mississippi, Stewart ANG Base, New York, Memphis, Tennessee, Martinsburg, West Virginia, Charlotte, North Carolina.
• The Air Force Reserve Command operates C-17s at March Air Reserve Base, California, and Wright Patterson AFB, Ohio.
• Air Force Materiel Command has one C-17 on loan from JB Charleston, S.C., to conduct tests at Edwards AFB, California.

The crews of these aircraft are, apparently, trained by the Air Education and Training Command at Altus AFB, Oklahoma. And get this: That’s the same Command responsible for training KC135 crews! The contact details for Altus AFB are here. I do hope that those with strong opinions about the safety risks caused by US C17 and C135 aircraft operations in Australia will contact Altus AFB, ASAP. The interests of air safety demand it.

I reckon the 4 dead in an IFR mid air near Mangalore and the incidents at Ballina are among the many recent examples already demonstrating the inadequacies of Australia’s ANSP and airspace arrangements - before resource mismanagement resulted in the systemic use of TIBA/TRA. I very much doubt that the US military will have much to learn from Australian civilians’ views as to how the most powerful defence force on the planet should be flying its aircraft - but might as well give it a try.

[sunnySA]

Originally Posted by Lead Balloon

I reckon the 4 dead in an IFR mid air near Mangalore and the incidents at Ballina are among the many recent examples already demonstrating the inadequacies of Australia’s ANSP and airspace arrangements - before resource mismanagement resulted in the systemic use of TIBA/TRA. I very much doubt that the US military will have much to learn from Australian civilians’ views as to how the most powerful defence force on the planet should be flying its aircraft - but might as well give it a try.

Thanks LB, particularly salient references to Mangalore and Ballina.

I'll try to provide my viewpoint. Probably 30/15 or 15/30 depending on your perspective.

Since 28-June I have been tracking the AsA TIBA/TRA/OPR Restrictions, so 3 months now.
ASA TIBA / TRA etc.
The thread has probably missed quite a few NOTAMs, and is by no means authoritative or to be used for navigation.

There have been a couple of CS Approach TIBA/TRAs in these 3 months. These NOTAMs are an example, one is a Brisbane FIR NOTAM search, the other from a Cairns NOTAM search.

C578/23
TEMPO RESTRICTED AREA ACT
IN CLASS C AIRSPACE INCLUDING CTR C. DESIGNATED AIRSPACE HANDBOOK
(DAH) SECTOR VOLUME NAMES AFFECTED ARE: CAIRNS APPROACH.
INCLUDES CLASS C AIRSPACE WI 36NM OF CAIRNS VOR/DME FM SFC TO FL180.
CONTINGENCY MAP (LISTED UNDER CAIRNS IN THE BN FIR) AVBL AT
HTTP://WWW.AIRSERVICESAUSTRALIA.COM/NOTAMMAPS/INDEX.ASP
ATS IN THIS AIRSPACE IS SUBJ TO CONTINGENCY DUE OPR RESTRICTIONS.
RELEVANT APPROVAL FM CONTROLLING AUTHORITY REQUIRED.
APCH CTL SER NOT AVBL. AD CTL SER AVBL ON MANOEUVRING AREA.
CAIRNS TWR WILL ISSUE LANDING AND TAKEOFF CLEARANCE ON 124.9 MHZ.
CTC CAIRNS TWR ON 124.9 MHZ PRIOR TO JOINING OR APPROACHING CIRCUIT
AREA.

PRIOR TO OPR IN THE TEMPO RESTRICTED AREA, PILOTS/OPERATORS MUST:
1. OBTAIN A BRIEFING ON CONTINGENCY PROCEDURES FM AIRSERVICES
AUSTRALIA ON [phone].
2. OBTAIN A LANDING, DEPARTURE OR TRANSIT TIME.

PILOTS-IN-COMMAND ARE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR TERRAIN AND COLLISION
AVOIDANCE WI THE AFFECTED AIRSPACE.
AUTHORISATION TO ENTER THIS TEMPO RESTRICTED AREA DOES NOT CONSTITUTE
CLEARANCE TO ENTER ANY ADJ OR EMBEDDED RESTRICTED AREAS.
SARWATCH FOR INBOUND IFR ACFT LANDING AT CAIRNS WILL BE HELD BY
CAIRNS TWR ON ADC FREQ 124.9 MHZ.
FIS PROVIDED BY CAIRNS TWR ON ADC FREQ 124.9 MHZ AND MAY BE AVBL FM
ADJ ATS UNITS OR HF.
TFC INFO BCST BY ACFT AND MANDATORY BCST PROC ON FREQ 118.4 MHZ.
THESE PROCEDURES DO NOT APPLY TO OPS IN ACTIVE MIL CTR AND RESTRICTED
AREAS.
SFC TO FL180
FROM 07 201355 TO 07 201945

C1187/23
TEMPO RESTRICTED AREA ACT
IN CLASS C AIRSPACE INCLUDING CTR C. DESIGNATED AIRSPACE HANDBOOK
(DAH) SECTOR VOLUME NAMES AFFECTED ARE: CAIRNS APPROACH.
INCLUDES CLASS C AIRSPACE WI 36NM OF CAIRNS VOR/DME FM SFC TO FL180
CONTINGENCY MAP (LISTED UNDER CAIRNS IN THE BN FIR) AVBL AT
HTTP://WWW.AIRSERVICESAUSTRALIA.COM/NOTAMMAPS/INDEX.ASP
ATS IN THIS AIRSPACE IS SUBJ CONTINGENCY DUE OPR RESTRICTIONS.
RELEVANT APPROVAL FM CONTROLLING AUTHORITY REQUIRED.
APCH CTL SER NOT AVBL. AD CTL SER AVBL ON MANOEUVRING AREA.

PRIOR TO OPR IN THE TEMPO RESTRICTED AREA, PILOTS/OPERATORS MUST:
1. OBTAIN A BRIEFING ON CONTINGENCY PROCEDURES FM AIRSERVICES
AUSTRALIA ON [phone]
2. OBTAIN A LANDING, DEPARTURE OR TRANSIT TIME

PILOTS-IN-COMMAND ARE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR TERRAIN AND COLLISION
AVOIDANCE WI THE AFFECTED AIRSPACE.
AUTHORISATION TO ENTER THIS TEMPO RESTRICTED AREA DOES NOT CONSTITUTE
CLEARANCE TO ENTER ANY ADJ OR EMBEDDED RESTRICTED AREAS.
SARWATCH FOR INBOUND IFR ACFT LANDING AT CAIRNS WILL BE HELD BY
CAIRNS TWR ON ADC FREQ 124.9 MHZ.
FIS PROVIDED BY CAIRNS TWR ON ADC FREQ 124.9 MHZ AND MAY BE AVBL FM
ADJ ATS UNITS.
TFC INFO BCST BY ACFT (TIBA) AND MANDATORY BCST PROC ON FREQ 118.4 MHZ.
CTC CAIRNS TWR ON 124.9 MHZ PRIOR TO JOINING OR APPROACHING CIRCUIT AREA.
THESE PROCEDURES DO NOT APPLY TO OPS IN ACTIVE MIL CTR AND RESTRICTED AREAS.
SFC TO FL180
FROM 07 201355 TO 07 201945

The NOTAMs would’ve been issued based on the activation of the TMA ATS Contingency Plan - TCU not available, TWR available.
TMA ATS Contingency Plan

If we consider these NOTAMs to be representative of the NOTAMs that were current at the time, then everything is OK -

PRIOR TO OPR IN THE TEMPO RESTRICTED AREA, PILOTS/OPERATORS MUST OBTAIN A BRIEFING ON CONTINGENCY PROCEDURES FM AIRSERVICES

(Argh, the ubiquitous Airservices Australia) and

PILOTS-IN-COMMAND ARE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR TERRAIN AND COLLISION AVOIDANCE WI THE AFFECTED AIRSPACE

If ATS cannot be provided, a Contingency Response Manager (CRM) is required to (amongst other things)

• Maintain an Activity Log to record any significant decisions or changes to the situation as the contingency progresses.
• Maintain an Aircraft Tracking Form to list aircraft affected by the activation of TRA/TIBA airspace.
• Complete and submit a Post Activation Review Report (PAR) to the relevant Director Operations (DO) within 28 days of activation.

ATM Director must submit a CIRRIS occurrence (safety report) Enter CIRRIS
For situations resulting in TIBA or TRA declaration the ATM Director

So there would be a CIRRIS and PAR for this TIBA / TRA declaration and I suspect that both documents would be released under Freedom of Information.

TCU not available, TWR available.
Questions:
Would CS TWR know if the pilot had obtained a briefing, do they even care? IDK
Would CS TWR issue an airways clearance? IDK
Would CS TWR issue a SID? IDK
Did CS TWR issue the RWY 15 SWIFT EIGHT DEPARTURE? IDK
(SID has a number of warnings and restrictions, DER, MAX IAS, MIN AOB)
At what point would CS TWR instruct the aircraft to make a transmission on 118.4? IDK
Would CS TWR monitor the turn (height, turning onto correct track)? IDK

Without knowing the exact date then it’s not possible to listen to the audio.

And I didn’t record the ATIS current during the TIBA/TRA so it’s not clear what operational information was included on the ATIS.

As I have stated on the other thread what concerns me is the differences between normal and contingency operations, in particular, console configurations. Cairns Approach is located in Brisbane Centre and uses a EUROCAT display. ATC alarms include Short Term Conflict Alert (STCA), Danger Area Infringement Warnings (DAIW), Cleared Level Adherence Monitor (CLAM) and Minimum Safe Altitude Warning (MSAW). The latter is basically the ATC equivalent of a Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS). Cairns Tower was retrofitted with INTAS (anyone, anyone - Integrated Tower Automation Suite) and as CS TCU “owns the airspace” and CS TWR "owns no airspace"; it is highly unlikely that CS TWR has MSAW alarms activated and displayable. TBC.

If TCU had been operating then on receipt of MSAW (or probably earlier) the ATC would've issued a safety alert

ATC will issue a Safety Alert to aircraft, in all classes of airspace,
when they become aware that an aircraft is in a situation that is
considered to place it in unsafe proximity to:
a. terrain;

SAFETY ALERT, followed as
necessary by: LOW ALTITUDE WARNING, CHECK YOUR ALTITUDE IMMEDIATELY, QNH IS (number) [(units)]. [THE MINIMUM SAFE ALTITUDE IS (altitude)] or
TERRAIN, CHECK YOUR ALTITUDE IMMEDIATELY (suggested pilot action if possible)

Aircraft calls 118.4 - crickets.

So the Swiss cheese aligned, AsA failed to provide a service, a heavy jet missed the hills, more by accident than design. Nothing to see, these aren't the droids you're looking for, move along. Really, is this the best we can do?

[VHOED191006]

Originally Posted by sunnySA

So the Swiss cheese aligned, AsA failed to provide a service, a heavy jet missed the hills, more by accident than design. Nothing to see, these aren't the droids you're looking for, move along. Really, is this the best we can do?

Of course there should be better. It's lucky that the holes with the GPWS and terrain display slice didn't line up with everything else.

Although I do think that the lack of ATC may had some role to play in this incident (in that it could have reduced the severity of this incident), I reckon inadequate crew training is more to blame. Blind Dog said that the 2nd KC-135 crew was given a detailed explanation of how to fly the SID after the first crew almost flew into that mountain a few minutes earlier, but still managed to end up in the same situation as the preceding crew. Lead Balloon pointed out that the C-17 and KC-135 guys are trained at the same facility. I really don't want to cast a shadow over our U.S friends, but I must question the quality of the training that they're receiving in the aspect of flying complex SIDs. How is it that 3 separate crews trained by the same people at the same place manage to end almost flying into the side of the same one mountain?

[havick]

They were probably on NVG’s doing a little sightseeing. What’s everyone getting worked up over?

[compressor stall]

Yes havick, no one has 100% discounted that.

@ others my inbox is now empty….

There’s no date / time on the pic. Maybe the next step is for someone with better internet than what I can get in Yogistan to look at the night time YBCS departures on ADSB exchange history view on fast forward (200x).

[SHSS]

Originally Posted by Gone Troppo.

Anyone know any details on this?
Nothing on ATSB, surprisingly
Deoarted at night supposedly, did not make the immediate left turn and was below lowest safe for quite some time before presumably a GPWS alerted escape.

Called ATC but they were TIBA

I have flown this swift departure in a number of aircraft types. The FMCs generally do good a job of meeting the turn and angle of bank requirments of the departure. The older versions of e190 was one which required pilot intervention to ensure correct tracking. The LNAV track, if followed, would have been a lazy left turn well after the departure end of the runway and had the aircraft tracking well to right of the expected track. The newer software in the e190 appears to have corrected this behaviour and does not usually require pilot intervention. The e-190 has a Honeywell FMC, I wonder if the C17 has a Honeywell FMC and experienced similar tracking issues? From
memory it was only this particular departure that had tracking issues with the LNAV track, possibly due to the unique design critiera?

[Lead Balloon]

No evidence has been produced to show that the event the subject of this thread was unintentional low flying, even if it is correct that the aircraft was ‘only’ 300’ above terrain.

There are published stories about US C17s coming to Australia to practise, among other things, low flying. There are published stories about the US C17 crews trained to Special Operations Low Level (SOLL) II standard. The US does this stuff for real, in places where people are trying to shoot them down and kill them. You can google this stuff.

We’re already convinced that Airservices is a managerial basket case. I don’t see the point in trying to make a big thing out of an event that may be a non-event, especially when it involves a (conveniently) security-constrained crew, of a foreign military aircraft, who aren’t going to say anything. And has anyone ever seen an ATSB report about a near miss with terrain by a foreign military aircraft?

I’ve already posted a link to the contact details for the US Training Command responsible for training C17 (and KC135) crews. Please post, here, copies of the terms of the correspondence, sent by those with safety concerns about the circumstances, to that Command. Then post the terms of any response. My educated guess is that the reflex response of the recipients will be: “Didn’t we fight the Austrians in dubya dubya two?” But I’ve been wrong, many times before. Maybe the US military and ATC do have something to learn from Australian military and ATC.

[dr dre]

Originally Posted by Lead Balloon

There are published stories about US C17s coming to Australia to practise, among other things, low flying. There are published stories about the US C17 crews trained to Special Operations Low Level (SOLL) II standard. The US does this stuff for real, in places where people are trying to shoot them down and kill them. You can google this stuff.

Do they practice that stuff against a mountain overlooking a major city with communities perched below that mountain where the wreckage will fall?

[Lead Balloon]

You can google it.

But please: Post, here, copies of the terms of the correspondence you send to the Air Education and Training Command at Altus AFB, Oklahoma, about your concerns, as well as what you send to ATSB. This is really important, right?

[Capt Fathom]

Originally Posted by dr dre

Do they practice that stuff against a mountain overlooking a major city with communities perched below that mountain where the wreckage will fall?

If you turn left from Runway 15, what city would that wreckage fall upon?

[illusion]

Originally Posted by dr dre

Do they practice that stuff against a mountain overlooking a major city with communities perched below that mountain where the wreckage will fall?

Could cause a $5million dollar reno to East Trinity free of charge. These dudes do stuff in aircraft that would clear the most chronic constipation of the most blocked up airline pilot in Australia.
Do you really think a pissy goat hill is beyond blokes who have recent combat experience and train low level NVG below 500' ?