Australian Airline Pilot: Respected Profession or 'Noose around your Neck'
Robyn Burnside. The Australian Oantas cabin crew have joined pilots in their opposition to the airline's planned use of two Finnair aircraft to operate flights from Sydney to Singapore and Bangkok later this year.
Oantas will wet lease two A330s from the Finnish carrier, which has seen its own flying curtailed by the war in Ukraine.
Under the arrangement, Finnair pilots will operate the flights, and a statement from Finnair said cabin crew would be provided by its "partners" in Singapore and Bangkok.
The Flight Attendants Association of Australia said it was originally told Finnair cabin crew were facing job losses due to reduced flying and agreed to Qantas's request to support the plan.
But the FAAA had now learned Finnair's "partners" are in fact Asian-based labour hire companies currently advertising for crew for the Qantas-Finnair flights.
FAAA industrial officer Steven Reed said they felt misled by Qantas and questioned why Australian cabin crew could not be used on the flights instead.
"The lack of transparency around this issue is breathtaking. We were briefed on a commercial-in-confidence basis earlier in the year and the information we were given about saving the jobs of Finnair crew is inconsistent with what's happening in practice," Mr Reed said."We thought we were doing something to assistOantas to access more aircraft and save jobs and we find out that additional labour hire crew are being recruited in Asia to do work that should be done by Australians."He said crew employed through labour hire companies were typically paid less, and were subject to poorer conditions.
"Airlines around the world are driving down conditions of direct employees and offshoring their work where they can," Mr Reed said.
The move follows Oantas's decision to use New
Zealand cabin crew on Sydney-Auckland-New York flights that began in June.Mr Reed pointed out the NZ crew recently agreed to changes, which meant that after an 18-hour flight, they could rest for just 40 hours, instead of 50 before working again. "It simply creates a race to the bottom," he said.
"Flight attendants are fast becoming the coalminers of the 21st century."
The Australian and International Pilots Association previously spoke out about the wet lease arrangement with Finnair, describing it as akin to "Outsourcing"."Oantas's decision to wet lease two Finnair aircraft is shocking, bitterly disappointing and could have been avoided with more effective management decisions," AIPA president Tony Lucas said.
A Qantas spokeswoman said the flying on the Finnair aircraft was "never going to be done by been very upfront about that"
"But it will be done by Oantas crew for the following two years and we believed the FAAA chose not to oppose the overall deal for that reason.
"If the FAAA's position is that Qantas partners aren't allowed to source labour as they see fit, that feels a bit like overreach."
Since borders reopened and travel restarted, Qantas has recruited more than 2400 pilots and cabin crew and is continuing to train and recruit another 1000-plus.
Once the two-year wet lease deal ended, Qantas would use its own pilots and crew to operate the Finnair A330s, which would create about 184 jobs.
Oantas will wet lease two A330s from the Finnish carrier, which has seen its own flying curtailed by the war in Ukraine.
Under the arrangement, Finnair pilots will operate the flights, and a statement from Finnair said cabin crew would be provided by its "partners" in Singapore and Bangkok.
The Flight Attendants Association of Australia said it was originally told Finnair cabin crew were facing job losses due to reduced flying and agreed to Qantas's request to support the plan.
But the FAAA had now learned Finnair's "partners" are in fact Asian-based labour hire companies currently advertising for crew for the Qantas-Finnair flights.
FAAA industrial officer Steven Reed said they felt misled by Qantas and questioned why Australian cabin crew could not be used on the flights instead.
"The lack of transparency around this issue is breathtaking. We were briefed on a commercial-in-confidence basis earlier in the year and the information we were given about saving the jobs of Finnair crew is inconsistent with what's happening in practice," Mr Reed said."We thought we were doing something to assistOantas to access more aircraft and save jobs and we find out that additional labour hire crew are being recruited in Asia to do work that should be done by Australians."He said crew employed through labour hire companies were typically paid less, and were subject to poorer conditions.
"Airlines around the world are driving down conditions of direct employees and offshoring their work where they can," Mr Reed said.
The move follows Oantas's decision to use New
Zealand cabin crew on Sydney-Auckland-New York flights that began in June.Mr Reed pointed out the NZ crew recently agreed to changes, which meant that after an 18-hour flight, they could rest for just 40 hours, instead of 50 before working again. "It simply creates a race to the bottom," he said.
"Flight attendants are fast becoming the coalminers of the 21st century."
The Australian and International Pilots Association previously spoke out about the wet lease arrangement with Finnair, describing it as akin to "Outsourcing"."Oantas's decision to wet lease two Finnair aircraft is shocking, bitterly disappointing and could have been avoided with more effective management decisions," AIPA president Tony Lucas said.
A Qantas spokeswoman said the flying on the Finnair aircraft was "never going to be done by been very upfront about that"
"But it will be done by Oantas crew for the following two years and we believed the FAAA chose not to oppose the overall deal for that reason.
"If the FAAA's position is that Qantas partners aren't allowed to source labour as they see fit, that feels a bit like overreach."
Since borders reopened and travel restarted, Qantas has recruited more than 2400 pilots and cabin crew and is continuing to train and recruit another 1000-plus.
Once the two-year wet lease deal ended, Qantas would use its own pilots and crew to operate the Finnair A330s, which would create about 184 jobs.
Thread Starter
This was sent to all pilots by the Qantas International CEO:
We have informed AIPA (and are now informing you) that if we are unable to secure a new long-haul EBA10 with our pilots that meets the Sunrise investment case within Airbus’ timeframe, we will be left with no viable alternative but to have Sunrise flying performed by a new employment entity that can provide the cost base we need for this important business opportunity.
We have informed AIPA (and are now informing you) that if we are unable to secure a new long-haul EBA10 with our pilots that meets the Sunrise investment case within Airbus’ timeframe, we will be left with no viable alternative but to have Sunrise flying performed by a new employment entity that can provide the cost base we need for this important business opportunity.
Imagine Christine Kilpatrick (Royal Melbourne Hospital CEO), telling her Radiographers that she will only buy the latest state-of-the-art INUMAC MRI Scanner if junior nurses agreed to a 17% Pay Cut...
Disgusting - Yes
Last edited by RealSatoshi; 6th Aug 2023 at 09:37.
The following 8 users liked this post by RealSatoshi:
We have informed AIPA (and are now informing you) that if we are unable to secure a new long-haul EBA10 with our pilots that meets the Sunrise investment case within Airbus’ timeframe, we will be left with no viable alternative but to have Sunrise flying performed by a new employment entity that can provide the cost base we need for this important business opportunity.
The following users liked this post:
Imagine Christine Kilpatrick (Royal Melbourne Hospital CEO), telling her Radiographers that she will only buy the latest state-of-the-art INUMAC MRI Scanner if junior nurses agreed to a 17% Pay Cut...
The following users liked this post:
Quite true in todays environment, however in March 2020 when the email was sent there were more than enough qualified pilots sitting around unemployed (or about to be). At least 2 local carriers devised whole business plans around scooping up cheap labour discarded due to the pandemic, so the threat felt very real.
The following 2 users liked this post by Beer Baron:
Thread Starter
Net Result: The two biggest (eventual) frames in the LH fleet will have the lowest LH pay rate for SO's.
Well played then...
Last edited by RealSatoshi; 7th Aug 2023 at 03:10.
The following users liked this post:
Thread Starter
For those still searching for their real 'worth' on this oblate spheroid, here is an easy to read summary of where the high water line is today.
Sure, this is Australia and we know the clouds are different here...and houses more expensive
But, If a rising tide does not lift your boat...you are probably sinking, you just don't know it yet!
Sure, this is Australia and we know the clouds are different here...and houses more expensive
But, If a rising tide does not lift your boat...you are probably sinking, you just don't know it yet!
The following 2 users liked this post by RealSatoshi:
I’m tempted to give this gig away and go work for UPS.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-66445496
UPS driver pay and benefits deal in US to be worth $170,000 ($260KAud) a year, firm says
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-66445496
The threat of a strike by the Teamsters union hit UPS in recent weeks, as customers diverted about one million packages per day to rival companies, costing the company about $200m in sales.
In a call to update investors on Tuesday, UPS said the deal reached with the Teamsters - expected to be approved by workers in a vote this month - would also weigh on its profits.
In a call to update investors on Tuesday, UPS said the deal reached with the Teamsters - expected to be approved by workers in a vote this month - would also weigh on its profits.
For those still searching for their real 'worth' on this oblate spheroid, here is an easy to read summary of where the high water line is today.
Sure, this is Australia and we know the clouds are different here...and houses more expensive
But, If a rising tide does not lift your boat...you are probably sinking, you just don't know it yet!
Sure, this is Australia and we know the clouds are different here...and houses more expensive
But, If a rising tide does not lift your boat...you are probably sinking, you just don't know it yet!
1st year FO lowest paid widebody 2023 rate: $183/hour. Monthly guarantee approx 86.9hrs.
Top of scale (4th year) Capt widebody 2023 rate: $409/hour. Monthly guarantee approx 78.5hrs.
Don’t sell yourself short.
Effectively QF are behaving like Norwegian in using lowly paid Asian cabin crew in place of nationals of their own country. Employed by a third party provider headquartered in a jurisdiction with less favourable labour laws. Jetstar got away with foreign cabin crews on their tag flights, how long before mainline try it on as well.
The following users liked this post:
Thread Starter
Ignore CPI and accept SHRINKFLATION in the workplace at your Peril
Over the last couple of months there's been a growing number of references made to the lack of CPI (+) adjustments in current and future Pilot EBA's.
It's been said that in Australia this will never happen, but yet we whale and groan at the lack of wage parity and the accelerating SHRINKFLATION of wages in the workplace - Do More...Get Less.
In fact, the Alliance Airlines Pilots' (Perth) Enterprise Agreement 2020 was found to contain a CPI clause - refer APPENDIX A Page 27.
What follows is an attempt to identify just how prevalent wage SHRINKFLATION in Australian Aviation has become. Some might find the data uncomfortable, while snowflakes might get close to melting point. Rest assured that all data used was obtained through publicly available sources and based on legitimate figures as filed with the Fair Work Commission.
In an attempt to prevent a typical 'mine is bigger than yours' slugfest, the most junior position and/or scale in each category was used - except QF Second Officer B-Scale
To do your own calculations with visual references, you can find a version of the RBA Inflation Calculator here: RBA Inflation Calculator
Understanding the Data
It is important to note that the data can not determine whether the EBA Actual Base Rate (starting wage) for a specific company and category is a fair or market related one, as it only uses this as a forward projection. To fix the EBA Actual Base Rate to a more representative and market related one, as has been happening through big adjustments in the US, is a first order function of EBA negotiations. Once the EBA Actual Base Rate is 'repaired' to a market related and relative one, then the second order function of EBA negotiations is to ensure future wage SHRINKFLATION and loss of Real Wages stays in check and remains guarded against - it is for the latter that this prediction method is very useful and data driven.
For those who already have EBA's running to June 2025...well, at least you can inform your family now that you expect your real earnings (read buying power) to reduce by (X)% in the next 24 months, this if the RBA's Economic Outlook modelling is sound and stays the predicted course
Here's the data...please don't choke on your stale crew meal while reading this
It's been said that in Australia this will never happen, but yet we whale and groan at the lack of wage parity and the accelerating SHRINKFLATION of wages in the workplace - Do More...Get Less.
In fact, the Alliance Airlines Pilots' (Perth) Enterprise Agreement 2020 was found to contain a CPI clause - refer APPENDIX A Page 27.
The Annual Base Salary will be adjusted by the Australian Bureau of Statistics CPI...If the CPI released is a negative figure, the Company agrees not to decrease the Annual Base Salary.
In an attempt to prevent a typical 'mine is bigger than yours' slugfest, the most junior position and/or scale in each category was used - except QF Second Officer B-Scale
To do your own calculations with visual references, you can find a version of the RBA Inflation Calculator here: RBA Inflation Calculator
Understanding the Data
- EBA Base Date - The date at which a known EBA adjustment was implemented. Here we looked for a date that falls outside the CPI spike window (late 2020 to early 2023), as this lays the foundation for a representative EBA Actual Base Rate
- EBA Actual Base Rate - The actual wage paid per category on the EBA Base Date
- EBA Actual Rate August 2023 - The actual wage paid per category during August 2023
- RBA Inflation Adjusted Base Rate August 2023 - Using the RBA Inflation Calculator which considers Historic CPI Inflation we can calculate what the EBA Actual Base Rate should be today, if correctly adjusted for Historic CPI Inflation
- EBA ▲ Inflation Adjusted August 2023 - Difference between EBA Actual Rate August 2023 and RBA Inflation Adjusted Base Rate August 2023. This is the first indication whether your Real Wage has increased or decreased as a result of Historic CPI Inflation
- ▲ % - Real Wage increase or decrease reflected as a %
- EBA Actual Rate June 2025 - For those who have an EBA that runs to at least June 2025, the actual wage to be paid per category during June 2025
- RBA Inflation Adjusted Base Rate June 2025 - Using the RBA Inflation Calculator which considers Historic CPI Inflation as well as RBA Economic Outlook modelling, we can calculate what the EBA Actual Base Rate should be during June 2025, if correctly adjusted for Historic CPI Inflation and future CPI modelling. For those who do not have EBA's running to June 2025, this provides a quantifiable indication where your negotiated EBA Actual Base Rate should be, so as to not suffer wage SHRINKFLATION and a loss of Real Wages after the fact.
- EBA ▲ Inflation Adjusted June 2025 - Difference between EBA Actual Rate June 2025 and RBA Inflation Adjusted Base Rate June 2025
- ▲ % - Projected June 2025 Real Wage increase or decrease reflected as a %
It is important to note that the data can not determine whether the EBA Actual Base Rate (starting wage) for a specific company and category is a fair or market related one, as it only uses this as a forward projection. To fix the EBA Actual Base Rate to a more representative and market related one, as has been happening through big adjustments in the US, is a first order function of EBA negotiations. Once the EBA Actual Base Rate is 'repaired' to a market related and relative one, then the second order function of EBA negotiations is to ensure future wage SHRINKFLATION and loss of Real Wages stays in check and remains guarded against - it is for the latter that this prediction method is very useful and data driven.
For those who already have EBA's running to June 2025...well, at least you can inform your family now that you expect your real earnings (read buying power) to reduce by (X)% in the next 24 months, this if the RBA's Economic Outlook modelling is sound and stays the predicted course
Here's the data...please don't choke on your stale crew meal while reading this
The following 3 users liked this post by RealSatoshi:
The data analyst's adage; if you have an anomalous line in the results (eg Jetstar First Officer (787)) then there's almost certainly an error, either input or calculation.
For Jetstar First Officer (787), you've taken Wide Body Single Deck First Officer Level 1 from the 2015 EBA for the 1 July 2018 actual but then used the First Officer Level 2 data from the 2019 EBA for the August 2023 actual. First Officer Level 1 is 55 percent of a Captain's base whereas First Officer Level 2 is 60 percent. That difference is why the Jetstar FO line stands out.
Someone familiar with the crew structures at Jetstar might be able to shed some light on why there is no Wide Body Single Deck First Officer Level 1 scale in the 2019 EBA.
For Jetstar First Officer (787), you've taken Wide Body Single Deck First Officer Level 1 from the 2015 EBA for the 1 July 2018 actual but then used the First Officer Level 2 data from the 2019 EBA for the August 2023 actual. First Officer Level 1 is 55 percent of a Captain's base whereas First Officer Level 2 is 60 percent. That difference is why the Jetstar FO line stands out.
Someone familiar with the crew structures at Jetstar might be able to shed some light on why there is no Wide Body Single Deck First Officer Level 1 scale in the 2019 EBA.
Last edited by MickG0105; 11th Aug 2023 at 00:44. Reason: Typo
Effectively QF are behaving like Norwegian in using lowly paid Asian cabin crew in place of nationals of their own country. Employed by a third party provider headquartered in a jurisdiction with less favourable labour laws. Jetstar got away with foreign cabin crews on their tag flights, how long before mainline try it on as well.
Thread Starter
For Jetstar First Officer (787), you've taken Wide Body Single Deck First Officer Level 1 from the 2015 EBA for the 1 July 2018 actual but then used the First Officer Level 2 data from the 2019 EBA for the August 2023 actual. First Officer Level 1 is 55 percent of a Captain's base whereas First Officer Level 2 is 60 percent. That difference is why the Jetstar FO line stands out.
The initial response was that it was negotiated away as a first order function to improve the overall EBA Actual Base Rate - a positive step nonetheless, if this is indeed the case, with results to prove.
- The starting hourly rate at US carriers is effectively a 'training' wage, expect 2nd year F/O to be closer to $190 USD, from memory.
- To gain a full appreciation of how much you've been sold short, put the Aus hourly rates into USD, or vice versa.
I would highlight a couple of points:
- The starting hourly rate at US carriers is effectively a 'training' wage, expect 2nd year F/O to be closer to $190 USD, from memory.
- To gain a full appreciation of how much you've been sold short, put the Aus hourly rates into USD, or vice versa.
Conversion isn’t useful - it’s the currency in the country you live that’s important.
Of course the US airlines are booming right now - no arguments there. Was pointing out that not all airlines in Aus are paying poorly.
I have many mates who work as pilots in the US. They have been around long enough to know it’s a cycle, and they’ve been through a few of them.
In their words “the pay they’re getting now doesn’t make up for the multiple furloughs and multiple hits to their 401Ks over the years.”
Same can be said for the year 2 onwards pay at the Aus carrier quoted. Was comparing apples to apples.
Conversion isn’t useful - it’s the currency in the country you live that’s important.
Of course the US airlines are booming right now - no arguments there. Was pointing out that not all airlines in Aus are paying poorly.
I have many mates who work as pilots in the US. They have been around long enough to know it’s a cycle, and they’ve been through a few of them.
In their words “the pay they’re getting now doesn’t make up for the multiple furloughs and multiple hits to their 401Ks over the years.”
Conversion isn’t useful - it’s the currency in the country you live that’s important.
Of course the US airlines are booming right now - no arguments there. Was pointing out that not all airlines in Aus are paying poorly.
I have many mates who work as pilots in the US. They have been around long enough to know it’s a cycle, and they’ve been through a few of them.
In their words “the pay they’re getting now doesn’t make up for the multiple furloughs and multiple hits to their 401Ks over the years.”
Although the conversion certainly helps when I go and pay my mortgage.
Local currency compared to local living costs is the important factor, however most of us understand that in general living costs in the USA are lower than in Australia. So if the US pilots are being paid much better than Australian pilots after conversion, then they are doing much, much better when compared to living costs. So the point still stands that Australia is far behind them in real terms.
PS the US "smallest aircraft" hourly rate for the US airlines is an A220 or A319, not a widebody. The US "largest aircraft" payrates are for 787/777 or A350 no where near as big as an A380.
Aus Carrier:
1st year FO lowest paid widebody 2023 rate: $183/hour. Monthly guarantee approx 86.9hrs.
Top of scale (4th year) Capt widebody 2023 rate: $409/hour. Monthly guarantee approx 78.5hrs.
1st year FO lowest paid widebody 2023 rate: $183/hour. Monthly guarantee approx 86.9hrs.
Top of scale (4th year) Capt widebody 2023 rate: $409/hour. Monthly guarantee approx 78.5hrs.
Local currency compared to local living costs is the important factor, however most of us understand that in general living costs in the USA are lower than in Australia. So if the US pilots are being paid much better than Australian pilots after conversion, then they are doing much, much better when compared to living costs. So the point still stands that Australia is far behind them in real terms.