Separation issue involving Boeing 737, VH-VXH, and Airbus A320, VH-VGV, near Darwin
Stainmaster used re Mr Hart….
Bloggs?/Lead Balloon / anyone.
I love asking dumb questions on a Sunday morning….but usually they elicit fascinating answers…
Assuming we are in Romeo airspace ie YPDN and not G with a CTAF (yet) where does it say pilots will be given DTI (as well as themselves making broadcasts as per AIP ENR 1.1 SECTION 12 MBZ)? Listening to many nights of LiveATC we seem to be in a version of Ballina SFIS with surveillance down to ground and a physical tower at location to “assist” further. Or is it assumed as part of FLIGHT INFORMATION as per NOTAM…
and yes I have a life…downloading the 30 min files as .mp3(s) it’s easy to jump to where the frequency is live…quite handy when listening to “voice tapes”…
Bloggs?/Lead Balloon / anyone.
I love asking dumb questions on a Sunday morning….but usually they elicit fascinating answers…
Assuming we are in Romeo airspace ie YPDN and not G with a CTAF (yet) where does it say pilots will be given DTI (as well as themselves making broadcasts as per AIP ENR 1.1 SECTION 12 MBZ)? Listening to many nights of LiveATC we seem to be in a version of Ballina SFIS with surveillance down to ground and a physical tower at location to “assist” further. Or is it assumed as part of FLIGHT INFORMATION as per NOTAM…
and yes I have a life…downloading the 30 min files as .mp3(s) it’s easy to jump to where the frequency is live…quite handy when listening to “voice tapes”…
Last edited by Gentle_flyer; 23rd Apr 2023 at 01:19.
It’s bollocks
Flew in there the other evening - 3 am Eastern time so we really all should be in bed, but no here we are with six jets all arriving or departing or pushing back and trying to establish what the others are going to do. It’s great that we all have a single frequency to talk on so the radio is going constantly while we are dodging a buildup, configuring the jet, calling checklists over the constant chatter and making sure we are safe to land at a frikin uncontrolled international airport in crap weather with perhaps 1000 souls involved blissfully unaware of the situation and that their government wants to blame the PIC if they are placed at risk. Yeah right.
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Originally Posted by Gentle Flyer
I love asking dumb questions on a Sunday morning….but usually they elicit fascinating answers…
Assuming we are in Romeo airspace ie YPDN and not G with a CTAF (yet) where does it say pilots will be given DTI (as well as themselves making broadcasts as per AIP ENR 1.1 SECTION 12 MBZ)?
Assuming we are in Romeo airspace ie YPDN and not G with a CTAF (yet) where does it say pilots will be given DTI (as well as themselves making broadcasts as per AIP ENR 1.1 SECTION 12 MBZ)?
Roller, I hope your Safety department knows about it by now.
Maybe the real issue here is RPT scheduling ops at o dark early into an aerodrome at o dark hours in the morning. I for one love airports with curfew. Even crewing can’t get you then.
Bloggs, no problem, thank you for your honesty, obviously neither do I.
Roller, agree it Bollicks! I’ll be looking at FR24 for all evenings in April already so might work out the night and then get the comms for interest. Then again 0300 most nights might be as bad
Only in Australia! There’s a perfectly good radar at facilitating surveillance within 45 nm YPDN and we are not using it; instead imposing ridiculous extra workloads / distractions on pilots. I’m sure the Darwin Flightwatch staff ain’t exactly happy watching this farce either.
Roller, agree it Bollicks! I’ll be looking at FR24 for all evenings in April already so might work out the night and then get the comms for interest. Then again 0300 most nights might be as bad
Only in Australia! There’s a perfectly good radar at facilitating surveillance within 45 nm YPDN and we are not using it; instead imposing ridiculous extra workloads / distractions on pilots. I’m sure the Darwin Flightwatch staff ain’t exactly happy watching this farce either.
I’m sure the Darwin Flightwatch staff ain’t exactly happy watching this farce either.
Does anyone in BN Centre know if the TAAATS Eurocat Safety Net data, configuration and selections such as STCA have been modified so the Short Term Conflict Alert relevant to Darwin Approach will be displayed to the relevant overlying sectors in BN Centre?
Having listened to a couple of 30 minute audios (different nights), if the Tower was operating at the least the traffic on the manoeuvring area would be controlled, and therefore one less thing for the aircrew to manage. As Roller Merlin said "It's bollocks".
From the ASA NT MATS Supplement:
The NOTAM doesn't say AFIS procedures apply, it just says Flight information and SAR will be provided. What are AFIS procedures these days?
[Creaky voice] Back in my day, AFIS and FIS were two different levels of service. You needed a separate rating to provide AFIS.[/Creaky voice off] Which is Flightwatch providing as opposed to what they are supposed to be providing?
When ATS are not available at Darwin due to operational restrictions, apply the following procedures.
a) AFIS procedures apply within the DN Temporary Restricted Airspace (TRA) within 40NM A085 and below. Darwin Flightwatch will be provided – frequency 133.1MHz......
a) AFIS procedures apply within the DN Temporary Restricted Airspace (TRA) within 40NM A085 and below. Darwin Flightwatch will be provided – frequency 133.1MHz......
[Creaky voice] Back in my day, AFIS and FIS were two different levels of service. You needed a separate rating to provide AFIS.[/Creaky voice off] Which is Flightwatch providing as opposed to what they are supposed to be providing?
Last edited by Traffic_Is_Er_Was; 24th Apr 2023 at 02:24.
A large swathe of SW airspace outside Perth was also turned into TRA recently, in the wee hours of the day. “Authorisation” for entry required and TIBA procedures applied, all levels. The aviation equivalent of supermarket self-checkouts.
Chronic, classic idea! “Are you using you own radar?” Etc etc…
Do you think you could tell the difference between a REAL controller and a GPT4 chat bot located inside a Mumbai computer “call centre”.
Then AsA really could have the second best control system in the world! Oh hang on where’s that United pilot?
Do you think you could tell the difference between a REAL controller and a GPT4 chat bot located inside a Mumbai computer “call centre”.
Then AsA really could have the second best control system in the world! Oh hang on where’s that United pilot?
Flew in there the other evening - 3 am Eastern time so we really all should be in bed, but no here we are with six jets all arriving or departing or pushing back and trying to establish what the others are going to do.
I can't understand 1. how the airlines are allowing this, and 2. why your pilot unions are allowing this? Sorry, I know why the unions are, they're gutless and weak.
Quick phone call to Nine News Darwin and they’ll happily air an interview with a rep from the pilot union saying Pilots are concerned about what is occurring every night at Darwin International Airport.
Follow it up with a front page article in the NT Times “Croc could have near miss with landing Jet due lack of Air Traffic Control”
Follow it up with a front page article in the NT Times “Croc could have near miss with landing Jet due lack of Air Traffic Control”
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Really? Unless aircraft actually hit each other then the general public could not care less.
Rightio then, when was the last time there was successful pilot industrial action taken?
current industrial climate..........cop out.
From the ASA NT MATS Supplement:
When ATS are not available at Darwin due to operational restrictions, apply the following procedures.
a) AFIS procedures apply within the DN Temporary Restricted Airspace (TRA) within 40NM A085 and below. Darwin Flightwatch will be provided – frequency 133.1MHz......
When ATS are not available at Darwin due to operational restrictions, apply the following procedures.
a) AFIS procedures apply within the DN Temporary Restricted Airspace (TRA) within 40NM A085 and below. Darwin Flightwatch will be provided – frequency 133.1MHz......
Flight information service includes the provision of pertinent:
-SIGMET and AIRMET information;
-Information concerning pre-eruption volcanic activity, volcanic eruptions and volcanic ash clouds;
-Information concerning the release into the atmosphere of radioactive materials or toxic chemicals;
-Information on changes in the serviceability of navigation aids;
-Information on changes in condition of aerodromes and associated facilities, including information on the state of the aerodrome movement areas when they are affected by snow, ice or significant depth of water;
-Information on unmanned free balloons; and,
-Any other information likely to affect safety.
as well as information concerning:
-Weather conditions reported or forecast at departure, destination and alternate aerodromes;
-Collision hazards, to aircraft operating in airspace Classes C, D, E, F and G;
-For flight over water areas, in so far as practicable and when requested by a pilot, any available information such as radio call sign, position, true track, speed, etc., of surface vessels in the area.
-SIGMET and AIRMET information;
-Information concerning pre-eruption volcanic activity, volcanic eruptions and volcanic ash clouds;
-Information concerning the release into the atmosphere of radioactive materials or toxic chemicals;
-Information on changes in the serviceability of navigation aids;
-Information on changes in condition of aerodromes and associated facilities, including information on the state of the aerodrome movement areas when they are affected by snow, ice or significant depth of water;
-Information on unmanned free balloons; and,
-Any other information likely to affect safety.
as well as information concerning:
-Weather conditions reported or forecast at departure, destination and alternate aerodromes;
-Collision hazards, to aircraft operating in airspace Classes C, D, E, F and G;
-For flight over water areas, in so far as practicable and when requested by a pilot, any available information such as radio call sign, position, true track, speed, etc., of surface vessels in the area.
Search and rescue service. The performance of distress monitoring, communication, coordination and search and rescue functions, initial medical assistance or medical evacuation, through the use of public and private resources, including cooperating aircraft, vessels and other craft and installations.
I'm interested to know what information DN FLIGHTWATCH has on each aircraft. Are they receiving flight plan information? Is BN CENTRE providing specific coordination on each inbound aircraft? What surveillance tools do they have and what limitations apply (acting as FLIGHTWATCHer versus operating as a licensed and qualified Tower ATC)? If BN CENTRE is issuing a SSR Code for IFR Departures then how does FLIGHTWATCH know the code/callsign, or do they assume? On the night of the "occurrence", on what basis did FLIGHTWATCH query the tracking of VXH?
Seems to be a major disconnect between what the documents say (NOTAM, AsA NT MATS Supplement), what "service" pilots are expecting in the TRA and potentially what FLIGHTWATCH is actually doing (or not doing). Get 6 ATCs in the room and there are likely to be 7 different opinions. Then factor in individual differences in technique, experience, interpretation, projection, prioritisation, judgement, what could go wrong?
And to digress, from the NOTAM
AUTHORISATION TO ENTER THIS TEMPO RESTRICTED AREA DOES NOT CONSTITUTE CLEARANCE TO ENTER ANY ADJ OR EMBEDDED RESTRICTED AREAS.
According to Wikipedia "FLTCDR" doesn't exist! RAAF Ranks. Perhaps this FLTCDR is the same person who authorised the TRA, and the very same person who will assist ATSB with their investigation into the "occurrence".