Separation issue involving Boeing 737, VH-VXH, and Airbus A320, VH-VGV, near Darwin

[morno]

Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs

I didn't say it was stupid, but...

Think about this scenario. The 737 stays on his SID, the A320 stays on his STAR, the 737 levels at say 5000ft, the A320 levels at 6000ft, and goes over the top of DRW at 6000ft! You cannot separate simply by altitude when on self-flown SIDs and STARs. It's a bit of a worry Morno you think otherwise.

And if you think I'm going to pull out my EFB, when I'm taxiing out, to see where the JQ A320 could be on his STAR, I've got news for you. Building a mental picture of a STAR when you're departing. Rediculous. Or I suppose I could get the FO to load in SYD-DRW in the secondary, load in the STAR the other jet was doing and look at it on the PLAN page. Yea right.

@43Inches is right. Radials, distance and vertical segregation, just like in a CTAF. KISS. I mean, all those pilots are CTAF experts (or should be). If you're worried about terrain and you can't work it out, fly your company special procedure/EOSID.

I'll bet all this nonsense has been caused by one thing: ASA are sh!t scared an international will come in and balls-up Class G/CTAF procedures, if they are even allowed into that type of airspace. So ASA/CASA make it a TRA and all responsibility is absolved.

So in one sentence you’re telling me to only use a distance, radial and altitude, and then you’re telling me to fly my company EOSID? How is the other guy supposed to know what that is?

And you don’t have your EFB out and open when you fly?

There is plenty of safe ways to fly using SID’s and STAR’s without ATC intervention, and a bit of thought process can go a long way. The altitude restrictions on some of those SID’s certainly aren’t there for terrain, so why not just use the SID for tracking and ensure you’re well seperated vertically before you get anywhere near old mate arriving from the south?

You’re just making it more complicated than it need be. And yes I know the irony in that sentence

[Capn Bloggs]

and then you’re telling me to fly my company EOSID? How is the other guy supposed to know what that is?

Oh for goodness sake, if you're doing something non-standard such as turning left at DER for terrain then you broadcast it.

​​​​​​​And you don’t have your EFB out and open when you fly?

When I'm taxiing out, NO! Are you seriously suggesting I pull out my ipad, call up the whoop whoop STAR, and use my own-ship to keep myself clear??

​​​​​​​The altitude restrictions on some of those SID’s certainly aren’t there for terrain, so why not just use the SID for tracking and ensure you’re well seperated vertically before you get anywhere near old mate arriving from the south?

Seriously? They're using different runways. As explained previously, that doesn't work.

​​​​​​​You’re just making it more complicated than it need be.

No, you are.

[morno]

Opposite runways, of course it’s not going to work . Why on earth would I be doing that when they’re using the opposite runway

So how do you display your charts? You don’t have an EFB holder in the cockpit?

[Phil Errup]

Jeeez what an absolute flogg fest this has turned into.

How about this -

1. Provide the control service it’s MEANT to have!!! It’s a fugging international airport, with a LARGE amount of movements between 11pm and 2am

2. If they SOOO desperately can’t provide the control, how about everyone use the same bloody runway instead of being spastics and trying to attempt RRO.

It’s definitely not the first incident in Darwin since this s#*% fight was created, and it won’t be the last.

[parishiltons]

Originally Posted by 43Inches

Again you are assuming the other aircraft have that capability when many aircraft operating to/from Darwin do not. However the two aircraft involved had all that and still managed to end up in an incident, so what does that say?

It all goes back to they lacked SA even with all the tools, regardless of whether they flew a SID/STAR or not. The SID/STAR just adds complication when theres no need. Are you really saying you need a STAR or SID to operate from a place that has no significant terrain? Maybe CASA realy needs to take a look at QF group pilots abilities...

[Capn Bloggs]

If they SOOO desperately can’t provide the control, how about everyone use the same bloody runway instead of being spastics and trying to attempt RRO.

Why would you? The aim is making money (or not wasting it). Melb's that way, I'm not going to takeoff the other way (29) if I don't need to (esp when I have to go to 5 DME before turning. The 737 took the obvious choice, 11, because they didn't even know the 320 was coming until they (737) taxied. Maybe they should have waited at the 11 HP for 10+ minutes until the 320 landed and cleared, but in the end they went nowhere near each other.

[Phil Errup]

Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs

Why would you? The aim is making money (or not wasting it). Melb's that way, I'm not going to takeoff the other way (29) if I don't need to (esp when I have to go to 5 DME before turning. The 737 took the obvious choice, 11, because they didn't even know the 320 was coming until they (737) taxied. Maybe they should have waited at the 11 HP for 10+ minutes until the 320 landed and cleared, but in the end they went nowhere near each other.

If YOUR aim is “making money or not wasting it” as PIC of a commercial Jet at 1am in the morning in a unfamiliar pseudo CTAF environment, (never mind the other complexities that are often associated with Darwin) I hope I never end up in a cabin with you up the front.

[Capn Bloggs]

And looking at the charts, anybody who chose to fly a Palga SID heading to Melbourne in those conditions would be merely collecting overtime.

Did you understand anything I wrote, Phil? I hope you are speaking from experience here.

[Phil Errup]

Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs

And looking at the charts, anybody who chose to fly a Palga SID heading to Melbourne in those conditions would be merely collecting overtime.

Did you understand anything I wrote, Phil? I hope you are speaking from experience here.

If you’ve been in there enough to experience the absolute cluster **** that can result from your exact attitude, you’d know that coming around to land on RWY 11…..or holding to depart off RWY 29 is a TINY price () to pay.

over and out

[kitchen bench]

over and out

IF you’re a pilot and feel qualified to comment on operational matters, you’d also know it’s either “over” or “out” - not both.

[sunnySA]

Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs

The 737 took the obvious choice, 11, because they didn't even know the 320 was coming until they (737) taxied.

I've listened to an audio once ( I was going to type "the" audio ) but it could be incomplete, IDK. Anyways what I recall was the first call by the 737 was at pushback at which point Darwin Flightwatch advises of the inbound traffic to RWY 29, the second call by the 737 was rolling RWY 11.

[Lookleft]

The advice from my Company is to treat it like a CTAF when it comes to radio calls. The problem is that it is not a CTAF so there are no required calls other than letting Darwin Fllightwatch know you want to operate in the TRA. The 737 was not required to make any calls after the initial one but it would have been a good idea to have made something between pushback and rolling on 11. I only get paid for the flying my company schedules me to fly so if landing on 11 or taking off on 29 incurs extra track miles and fuel burn I RDGAF as I would rather stay out of everyone else's RA envelope. Airspace in Australia is rapidly turning into something akin to Africa with the only difference being I don't need armed guards to get me to the hotel, although the other night in Darwin there had been a stabbing outside my hotel's front door.

[Gentle_flyer]

Coming to this a bit late but…

Bloggs, like you I’ve listened and watched, audio via Live ATC and display by FR24, albeit at 12X (minimum on playback) Even made a little movie of it.

Hmmm, dog’s breakfast that and all, cat’s vomit and also in rodent droppings as well. Not sure the “breakfast” comment refers to the incident or the 5 pages of bulls$#t, stupid, irrelevant and occasionally intelligent, logical factual posts.

To start with the posted copy of the NOTAM seems to indicate at the bottom this TRA is happening for a couple of months, not just a one off with a RAAF controller having a shandy in the Darwin officers mess a couple of hours before the start of duty. Guess I’ll have a listen tonight to confirm.

With regard to alleged / rumoured TCAS, if what I observed n FR24 is correct if I got a TA or RA involving QFA839/JST672 I’d be faulting the equipment. Wouldn’t even have triggered a STCA in ATC land, Shirley… They never got within cooee of each other either in a vertical/lateral context. QANTAS asked JETSTAR did he want to play verticals. JETSTAR replied keep climbing. When QANTAS out of A080 on climb before going to BN Centre QANTAS checked JETSTAR‘S altitude and he was out of A060 on descent…and after a quick goodnight the tapes were silent.

So my click bait headlines QANTAS and JETSTAR try SODPROPS at Darwin in a TRA with only one runway will be saved for another time…

The ghost controller P. Rovidence smiled on aviation again. Had QANTAS pushed backed 2 mis later and JETSTAR inbound 1 or 2 mins earlier then it may have been more instructional to have a listen on how the professionals do it!

Just still not sure why QANTAS did a large left turn towards North East in the middle of it all.

Hope I’m still alive in 3 years when ATSB explains that and why and who submitted the occurrence to them in the first place.

[sunnySA]

Originally Posted by Gentle_flyer

Hope I’m still alive in 3 years when ATSB explains that and why and who submitted the occurrence to them in the first place.

My thinks ATSB will not proceed with the investigation, and not sure who submitted the report in the first instance. I fail to see how (and perhaps ATSB will confirm) the occurrence meets the criterion for Immediately Reportable or Routine Reportable matters. It probably fits "Other separation issues" where aircraft separation is a concern but does not meet the definition of near collision, and includes separation issues inside and outside controlled airspace.

Darwin Noise Abatement Procedures includes the following

PREFERRED RUNWAYS
LANDING Runway 29 for arrival tracks within the sector 021 through SOUTH to 199
TAKE-OFF Runway 11 for departure tracks within the sector 021 through SOUTH to 199

Jetstar is arriving from the south, Qantas is departing to the south. Both aircraft are compliant with Noise Abatement Procedures.

Unless cleared via SID*, all JET and TURBOPROP aircraft above 25,000KG are to maintain runway heading until 2000ft and 7 DME (GPS) off RWY 11 between 1230 and 2030. UTC

So that deals with that discussion about 7 DME. *Cleared by SID, cleared by whom one might ask?

The NOTAM states

TCAS AND TRANSPONDER EQPT MUST BE SELECTED ON AT ALL TIMES

.
Given TCAS was designed to operate as a last-resort safety net, when did TCAS switch to being a primary defence?

I think it's appalling that RAAF staffing is such that Darwin ATC isn't providing a service nightly between 1230 and 2030 for nearly 2 months. Seriously, how can this be the case? Have the ATCs been allocated to another location, overseas deployment or OneSky testing or training?

Hopefully ATSB will be able to find a definition for FLIGHTWATCH as AIP has no definition of FLIGHWATCH; and determine what is meant by FLIGHT INFORMATION AND SAR SERVICE as once again these terms aren't clear, especially when dealing with a TRA.

[werbil]

Originally Posted by sunnySA

I think it's appalling that RAAF staffing is such that Darwin ATC isn't providing a service nightly between 1230 and 2030 for nearly 2 months.

NIght TIBA started near the beginning of COVID, and if there's been a middle of the night ATC service since then it's only been for relaively short periods of time. So that'd be about three years.

[Gentle_flyer]

Sunny SA…Re TCAS…

so the following questions arise to clarify your query further…

a/. Would an aircraft not equipped with TCAS get approval to operate in the TRA?

b/. Would an RPT jet with unserviceable TCAS get approval to operate in the TRA?

And finally the control questions…

c/. Can an RPT jet with unserviceable TCAS fly from YMML to YSSY wholly contained in A/C airspace with no TRA/TIBA?

d/. Can an RPT jet with unserviceable TCAS fly from YSSY to YMIA where last segment is Class E/G airspace and CTAF?

Some interesting things arose in AsA after Uberlingen,

TCAS was not supposed to be used in target level of safety determination, only resultant level of safety determination ie a true airborne safety net akin to the STCA in the ground based system. One could be forgiven if it appears the distinction is somewhat blurred?

Mind you, senior executive management and the board after Uberlingen were supposedly assured that a controller in OZ would never resolve compromised separation by a level change. Yeah right, good luck with that!

When we start using safety nets to mitigate staffing issues / traffic levels or just basic air traffic control then the threads don’t save anyone from the high wire act, no matter how easy it looks when done by professionals… and we might as well be in Africa!

Isn’t there a company called Landbridge that already does leasing work in Darwin, maybe they would help out with a contract doing the ATC night shift in Darwin?

I am pretty sure China uses similar ATC equipment.

Maybe just the script of another Utopia episode…

Sigh!

[missy]

Originally Posted by werbil

NIght TIBA started near the beginning of COVID, and if there's been a middle of the night ATC service since then it's only been for relaively short periods of time. So that'd be about three years.

I understand that COVID or short term unexpected absences could reduce services to TIBA but 3 years. Time for SERCO, NATS, Airways Intentional or Acme Corporation.

[missy]

Originally Posted by sunnySA

I think it's appalling that RAAF staffing is such that Darwin ATC isn't providing a service nightly between 1230 and 2030 for nearly 2 months. Seriously, how can this be the case? Have the ATCs been allocated to another location, overseas deployment or OneSky testing or training?

Perhaps RAAF resources have been diverted to this project Deployable Air Traffic Solutions

Perhaps 452 Squadron isn't operating with a full complement of personnel.

[jetstar1]

Without meaning to downplay the seriousness of the issue… if I recall correctly, the nighttime closure/TRA has ‘only’ been going since July 2022.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Classic normalisation of deviance?