Working on public holidays
and they will respond with the government ‘minimum domestic network’ and ‘IFAM’ etc etc.
To which the unions should respond ‘well you only needed x pilots for that’
it’s simple. You can have any day of the year off you want. (Except Xmas day…..) we don’t need a PH mandate. The reality is this will only benefit the hours pigs who live for money. The only other benefit I see is if there is some kind of penalty attached and you are assigned work on a PH, you’ll get something extra.
To which the unions should respond ‘well you only needed x pilots for that’
it’s simple. You can have any day of the year off you want. (Except Xmas day…..) we don’t need a PH mandate. The reality is this will only benefit the hours pigs who live for money. The only other benefit I see is if there is some kind of penalty attached and you are assigned work on a PH, you’ll get something extra.
normal worker has
52 weekends plus
12 public holidays (or more depending on
the state) plus
4 weeks annual leave
that is 144 days off a year (about 40%)
pilots get 42 days off (about 12%)
i hope you are not a captain if that is the way you
look at data before you, you think we should go from 12% down to 8%. An airline managers dream.
It is easy to see who is getting raped by their employer
52 weekends plus
12 public holidays (or more depending on
the state) plus
4 weeks annual leave
that is 144 days off a year (about 40%)
pilots get 42 days off (about 12%)
i hope you are not a captain if that is the way you
look at data before you, you think we should go from 12% down to 8%. An airline managers dream.
It is easy to see who is getting raped by their employer
it’s not so much that the pilot ends up working 323 days of the year
it’s that those days off are received in a haphazard manner, often at short notice and without any consultation
the normal worker knows they have every weekend off, every public holiday etc, IN ADDITION TO annual leave and the rest of it
therefore can plan- whatever they want to do. Footy on a Saturday, church on Sunday, childcare, date night, whatever. And months in advance
to do any of that in aviation you’d have to book leave, and you’d run out of it very quickly- after around…42 days in fact!!
normal worker has
52 weekends plus
12 public holidays (or more depending on
the state) plus
4 weeks annual leave
that is 144 days off a year (about 40%)
pilots get 42 days off (about 12%)
i hope you are not a captain if that is the way you
look at data before you, you think we should go from 12% down to 8%. An airline managers dream.
It is easy to see who is getting raped by their employer
52 weekends plus
12 public holidays (or more depending on
the state) plus
4 weeks annual leave
that is 144 days off a year (about 40%)
pilots get 42 days off (about 12%)
i hope you are not a captain if that is the way you
look at data before you, you think we should go from 12% down to 8%. An airline managers dream.
It is easy to see who is getting raped by their employer
I might be wrong but most pilots still get their 8 days of in 28 which brings the yearly days off to 146 !!! Or am I missing something ?????
Also pretty sure that if you have already counted 52 weekends, then 4 weeks annual leave is only another 20 days. ie 104+12+20=136 days
Also didn't know that pilots not on their 6 weeks annual leave worked the remaining 46 weeks of the year without another single day off....wow you guys have it tough!
Also didn't know that pilots not on their 6 weeks annual leave worked the remaining 46 weeks of the year without another single day off....wow you guys have it tough!
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Bottom line; it needs to be a ‘request’ to work on a public holiday. Not a requirement.
Employee cannot ‘unreasonably’ refuse. Both the nature of the request and the employee’s circumstances will be relevant.
The request may also open the door to a dialogue or negotiation.
Will be interesting to see how this one plays out.
MHA 👍
Edit: here’s a link to the list of factors that will be considered (s 114(4)). I’d suggest ‘personal circumstances including family responsibilities’ and the absence of penalty rates would be the two factors to play in favour of crew. The nature of the job, contract and expectations would be powerfully against.
http://www8.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/cth/consol_act/fwa2009114/s114.html
Employee cannot ‘unreasonably’ refuse. Both the nature of the request and the employee’s circumstances will be relevant.
The request may also open the door to a dialogue or negotiation.
Will be interesting to see how this one plays out.
MHA 👍
Edit: here’s a link to the list of factors that will be considered (s 114(4)). I’d suggest ‘personal circumstances including family responsibilities’ and the absence of penalty rates would be the two factors to play in favour of crew. The nature of the job, contract and expectations would be powerfully against.
http://www8.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/cth/consol_act/fwa2009114/s114.html
Last edited by MaxHelixAngle; 3rd Apr 2023 at 08:36.
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normal worker has
52 weekends plus
12 public holidays (or more depending on
the state) plus
4 weeks annual leave
that is 144 days off a year (about 40%)
pilots get 42 days off (about 12%)
i hope you are not a captain if that is the way you
look at data before you, you think we should go from 12% down to 8%. An airline managers dream.
It is easy to see who is getting raped by their employer
52 weekends plus
12 public holidays (or more depending on
the state) plus
4 weeks annual leave
that is 144 days off a year (about 40%)
pilots get 42 days off (about 12%)
i hope you are not a captain if that is the way you
look at data before you, you think we should go from 12% down to 8%. An airline managers dream.
It is easy to see who is getting raped by their employer
Pilots and other workers get 42 days a year leave because they work shift work, back of the clock, and work weekends. Holidays are a moot point.
Irregardless this is a landmark ruling. Qantas are worried. So much so that the chief pilot’s had to put his name to a letter from legal asking you to work during holiday periods. Hazard a guess other airlines and industries also.
As others have suggested airlines are going to have to start remunerating people properly for working holidays, providing confirmed travel for family etc.
The chief pilot still gets 42 days a year leave. Perhaps he can put his hand up.
Irregardless this is a landmark ruling. Qantas are worried. So much so that the chief pilot’s had to put his name to a letter from legal asking you to work during holiday periods. Hazard a guess other airlines and industries also.
As others have suggested airlines are going to have to start remunerating people properly for working holidays, providing confirmed travel for family etc.
The chief pilot still gets 42 days a year leave. Perhaps he can put his hand up.
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Karma will be a bitch for airlines if this is applied as it appears it will be. Years of the war on staff cannot go unpunished. Colleagues I have spoken to already have suggested only large sums of money will get them to work on a public holiday.
Someone mentioned something about the 6 weeks A/L being compensation for public holidays in a prior post. I don’t believe this has been expressly stated in any EBA, rather suggested by management. It’s a null and void argument.
Someone mentioned something about the 6 weeks A/L being compensation for public holidays in a prior post. I don’t believe this has been expressly stated in any EBA, rather suggested by management. It’s a null and void argument.
29.1 For the avoidance of doubt:
- (a) the minimum wage provided for in this award;and
(b) the entitlement to annual leave in clause 23—Annual leave,
take into account an employee’s entitlement to public holidays in the NES and include compensation for all public holidays provided for in the NES.
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 3rd Apr 2023 at 09:44.
normal worker has
52 weekends plus
12 public holidays (or more depending on
the state) plus
4 weeks annual leave
that is 144 days off a year (about 40%)
pilots get 42 days off (about 12%)
i hope you are not a captain if that is the way you
look at data before you, you think we should go from 12% down to 8%. An airline managers dream.
It is easy to see who is getting raped by their employer
52 weekends plus
12 public holidays (or more depending on
the state) plus
4 weeks annual leave
that is 144 days off a year (about 40%)
pilots get 42 days off (about 12%)
i hope you are not a captain if that is the way you
look at data before you, you think we should go from 12% down to 8%. An airline managers dream.
It is easy to see who is getting raped by their employer
15.7 Periods of duty
- The weekly duty period will normally consist of 5 days’ duty and 2 consecutive days free from all duty. By mutual agreement between the employee and the employer one day free of duty can be deferred. Where a day has been deferred a substitute day will be granted and taken within 28 days unless further deferred by mutual agreement in writing. For the purpose of rotating the roster one 2 day period may be reduced to single days in each 28 day cycle.
- (a) When an employee completes the maximum permissible flying or duty hours prescribed in CAO 48 the employer will not require the employee to perform any further duties whatsoever for the remainder of the relevant period.
23. Annual leave
23.1 Annual leave is provided for in the NES. Clause 23 provides occupational specific detail. (The NES gives every full time employee 4 weeks annual leave)
23.4 Entitlement to annual leave
An employee is entitled to annual leave such that the employee’s total entitlement to annual leave pursuant to the NES and this award for each year of employment is a total of 42 days annual leave,inclusive of Saturdays,Sundays and public holidays on full salary for each completed year of service,with a right to take 2 rostered days free of duty immediately before or after or one day immediately before and one day immediately after such leave period.
NOTE: Where an employee is receiving over-award payments such that the employee’s base rate of pay is higher than the rate specified under this award,the employee is entitled to receive the higher rate while on a period of paid annual leave (see sections 16 and 90 of the Act).
23.5 Annual leave loading- (a) Clause 23.5 does not apply to employees engaged in aerial application operations.
- (b) In addition to the entitlement to payment under clause 23.4,an employee when proceeding on annual leave will be paid in respect of the first 28 of 42 days annual leave (inclusive of Saturdays,Sundays and public holidays) falling due each year either:
(i) an annual leave loading equivalent to 17.5% of the salary inclusive of allowances and additions to salary prescribed by this award;or
(ii) the employee’s actual salary or wage inclusive of allowances and additions to salary or wage, whichever amount is greater.
So what’s this mean exactly (mainly the second quote)? From the ABC article:
"It actually impacts across every sector because it's actually the National Employment Standards," he said.
"If you have an enterprise agreement or a contract in place, that cannot override an NES provision of the act.
"So whether it's retail, mining, construction — it's a massive decision.
"It actually impacts across every sector because it's actually the National Employment Standards," he said.
"If you have an enterprise agreement or a contract in place, that cannot override an NES provision of the act.
"So whether it's retail, mining, construction — it's a massive decision.
So what’s this mean exactly (mainly the second quote)? From the ABC article
That’s very simplistic though, because an employee can’t unreasonably refuse to work.
From the judgment:
45An employer never has complete certainty of operation regarding what it would like in the future to demand of its employees and whether it can do so lawfully. An employer is only ever able to demand of its employees what is lawful and reasonable regardless of what a roster or contract say. Indeed, even if a contract contained a term which, in some circumstances, might be lawful and reasonable, does not mean by the intersection of a plethora of statutory obligations, that nonetheless the direction is not lawful in theparticular circumstances. It may be, as OS suggested, administratively burdensome for a mine to have to make a request rather than be able to require employees to work on public holidays. However, the legislation intends to confront this very mischief: To ensure that employers do not so require employees to work on public holidays absent the request being reasonable or the employee being able to refuse to work in reasonable circumstances.
Am I correct in assuming that if you are on a period of Annual or Long Service Leave during a public holiday that this is not considered a day of leave and thus your leave balance should not reduce?
And this (NES) has applied for some time so I would expect a lot of people will be getting a significant amount of Leave paid back to them.
And this (NES) has applied for some time so I would expect a lot of people will be getting a significant amount of Leave paid back to them.
Am I correct in assuming that if you are on a period of Annual or Long Service Leave during a public holiday that this is not considered a day of leave and thus your leave balance should not reduce?
And this (NES) has applied for some time so I would expect a lot of people will be getting a significant amount of Leave paid back to them.
And this (NES) has applied for some time so I would expect a lot of people will be getting a significant amount of Leave paid back to them.
This judgment won’t change as much as some people are assuming. Police, ambulance, doctors … and pilots, are still going to be working public holidays. The only thing this changes is that the company can only request that you work, and there is a narrow scope to refuse.
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I think it’s fair that there is recognition for working a PH. For too long the senior have been ripping off the junior, picking the eyes out of the rostering system, whilst the junior just take it.
If you are suggesting you should be able to refuse to work. I hope you’re ok with the Ambo’s, train drivers, shop employees etc. etc. also refusing.
Will make for pretty quiet holidays
If you are suggesting you should be able to refuse to work. I hope you’re ok with the Ambo’s, train drivers, shop employees etc. etc. also refusing.
Will make for pretty quiet holidays
I think it’s fair that there is recognition for working a PH. For too long the senior have been ripping off the junior, picking the eyes out of the rostering system, whilst the junior just take it.
If you are suggesting you should be able to refuse to work. I hope you’re ok with the Ambo’s, train drivers, shop employees etc. etc. also refusing.
Will make for pretty quiet holidays
If you are suggesting you should be able to refuse to work. I hope you’re ok with the Ambo’s, train drivers, shop employees etc. etc. also refusing.
Will make for pretty quiet holidays
Nurses on full time receive 6 weeks annual leave and 250% pay for PH's.
Last edited by Ladloy; 3rd Apr 2023 at 21:57.
Spoken like a true socialist. When you're in the last years before retirement and being rostered for back-of-clock crap you'd rather not be doing while the new guy is doing some nice sectors, remember those words.
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