Bonza has its AOC
where pilot unions ……… are weak.
It has been permitted for considerable time here, it’s just nobody has really bothered to use the option. I recall it was taken up in the 80s and 90s but nothing much since.
Is a UK A321 doing domestic hops here at the moment also for a tour company.
The costs involved to bring a foreign set of crews down under would be quite considerable. 70/80 crew being based here for 6 months won’t come cheap. And that’s just one part of the wet lease bill. That’s a whole lot of cost to be running half empty flights to Isa and back for the summer.
Is a UK A321 doing domestic hops here at the moment also for a tour company.
The costs involved to bring a foreign set of crews down under would be quite considerable. 70/80 crew being based here for 6 months won’t come cheap. And that’s just one part of the wet lease bill. That’s a whole lot of cost to be running half empty flights to Isa and back for the summer.
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It is not since 1989 that a foreign operator with a foreign crew and a foreign registered a/c has operated a scheduled domestic airline service in Australia. Issues are
Compliance with
1. Industrial relations (unions) whilst using foreigners as crew
2. CASA (CASA needs to be satisfied that Flair will operate to a standard at least equal to that of Au regs, including having a Canadian authorised maintenance organisation)
3. Federal Government and the Civil Aviation act 1988 (Opening up domestic flights to a foreign registered airline opens pandora's box and some are concerned that this could ultimately lead to "any" foreign country attempting operations in Au airspace via an Australian domestic carrier, without needing a domestic AOC in their own right. For example, if approved for Bonza/Flair it could mean "ABC" airlines could start up a domestic airline in Australia with an Aussie AOC as a fully foreign owned Chinese company and operate 2 Australian registered 737 aircraft and then subsequently fly in 50 China registered a/c with Chinese crew all operating their China registration.
Compliance with
1. Industrial relations (unions) whilst using foreigners as crew
2. CASA (CASA needs to be satisfied that Flair will operate to a standard at least equal to that of Au regs, including having a Canadian authorised maintenance organisation)
3. Federal Government and the Civil Aviation act 1988 (Opening up domestic flights to a foreign registered airline opens pandora's box and some are concerned that this could ultimately lead to "any" foreign country attempting operations in Au airspace via an Australian domestic carrier, without needing a domestic AOC in their own right. For example, if approved for Bonza/Flair it could mean "ABC" airlines could start up a domestic airline in Australia with an Aussie AOC as a fully foreign owned Chinese company and operate 2 Australian registered 737 aircraft and then subsequently fly in 50 China registered a/c with Chinese crew all operating their China registration.
Last edited by 1a sound asleep; 24th Nov 2023 at 00:23.
Silly question
CASA
Apparently 4th Dec now, wonder what the issue is
This should have been sorted prior to Flair sending frames and crew to Oz
You would have thought they would have learned that CASA are an_l as, especially with the delays getting Bonza going in the first place
You would have thought they would have learned that CASA are an_l as, especially with the delays getting Bonza going in the first place
It is not since 1989 that a foreign operator with a foreign crew and a foreign registered a/c has operated a scheduled domestic airline service in Australia. Issues are
Compliance with
1. Industrial relations (unions) whilst using foreigners as crew
2. CASA (CASA needs to be satisfied that Flair will operate to a standard at least equal to that of Au regs, including having a Canadian authorised maintenance organisation)
3. Federal Government and the Civil Aviation act 1988 (Opening up domestic flights to a foreign registered airline opens pandora's box and some are concerned that this could ultimately lead to "any" foreign country attempting operations in Au airspace via an Australian domestic carrier, without needing a domestic AOC in their own right. For example, if approved for Bonza/Flair it could mean "ABC" airlines could start up a domestic airline in Australia with an Aussie AOC as a fully foreign owned Chinese company and operate 2 Australian registered 737 aircraft and then subsequently fly in 50 China registered a/c with Chinese crew all operating their China registration.
Compliance with
1. Industrial relations (unions) whilst using foreigners as crew
2. CASA (CASA needs to be satisfied that Flair will operate to a standard at least equal to that of Au regs, including having a Canadian authorised maintenance organisation)
3. Federal Government and the Civil Aviation act 1988 (Opening up domestic flights to a foreign registered airline opens pandora's box and some are concerned that this could ultimately lead to "any" foreign country attempting operations in Au airspace via an Australian domestic carrier, without needing a domestic AOC in their own right. For example, if approved for Bonza/Flair it could mean "ABC" airlines could start up a domestic airline in Australia with an Aussie AOC as a fully foreign owned Chinese company and operate 2 Australian registered 737 aircraft and then subsequently fly in 50 China registered a/c with Chinese crew all operating their China registration.
(Serious question!)
And the various machines from places like Canada that flew Ansett services in 2000, when the 767’s were grounded for the umpteenth time.
It is not since 1989 that a foreign operator with a foreign crew and a foreign registered a/c has operated a scheduled domestic airline service in Australia. Issues are
Compliance with
1. Industrial relations (unions) whilst using foreigners as crew
2. CASA (CASA needs to be satisfied that Flair will operate to a standard at least equal to that of Au regs, including having a Canadian authorised maintenance organisation)
3. Federal Government and the Civil Aviation act 1988 (Opening up domestic flights to a foreign registered airline opens pandora's box and some are concerned that this could ultimately lead to "any" foreign country attempting operations in Au airspace via an Australian domestic carrier, without needing a domestic AOC in their own right. For example, if approved for Bonza/Flair it could mean "ABC" airlines could start up a domestic airline in Australia with an Aussie AOC as a fully foreign owned Chinese company and operate 2 Australian registered 737 aircraft and then subsequently fly in 50 China registered a/c with Chinese crew all operating their China registration.
Compliance with
1. Industrial relations (unions) whilst using foreigners as crew
2. CASA (CASA needs to be satisfied that Flair will operate to a standard at least equal to that of Au regs, including having a Canadian authorised maintenance organisation)
3. Federal Government and the Civil Aviation act 1988 (Opening up domestic flights to a foreign registered airline opens pandora's box and some are concerned that this could ultimately lead to "any" foreign country attempting operations in Au airspace via an Australian domestic carrier, without needing a domestic AOC in their own right. For example, if approved for Bonza/Flair it could mean "ABC" airlines could start up a domestic airline in Australia with an Aussie AOC as a fully foreign owned Chinese company and operate 2 Australian registered 737 aircraft and then subsequently fly in 50 China registered a/c with Chinese crew all operating their China registration.
Precedent for foreign wet lease aircraft flying Australian domestic routes was well and truly established as far back as 1989.
There may have been earlier cases in Australia - of which I am not aware - though it was certainly done between countries in Europe, even before the EU common market was established.
ICAO makes recommendations for such arrangements, but ultimately it is up to the aircraft 'flag' country to provide airworthiness and crew competency oversight, and the other authority to issue the necessary permits and pile on whatever additional restrictions they desire. For example, the 'flag' country could have lax flight and duty time limits, but the country of operation could (and should) enforce their own limitations, if they are more strict.
Now, whether our CASA is that diligent is a whole other discussion ...
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 24th Nov 2023 at 05:18.
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Originally Posted by 1a sound asleep;
Bonza has loaded C-FLKC for its maiden Bonza flight tomorrow, Saturday November 25. We wish her well
Playing Golf eh? More like watching porn and facebook on their computers when they're supposed to be working, Nothing worse that bureaucrats that have have no first hand knowledge of aviation.
As for previous posters bringing up this is a slippery slope, well that started in 1989 with Hawke. The law has been enshrined.
Canadian and Australian pilot pay scales are roughly the same. I see no problem with Flair Pilots with no family commitments having a working holiday in Oz and seeing the Gold Coast, and in the future Bonza pilots having a working holiday and seeing the Rocky Mountains. Sounds like fun esp if you're single.
Last edited by antheads; 27th Nov 2023 at 09:34.
I noticed Flair C-FLKC did not take off. Is this going to be another Ansett and Tiger debacle where BS CASA ruins the Christmas holidays of thousands of Aussies?
Playing Golf eh? More like watching porn and facebook on their computers when they're supposed to be working, Nothing worse that bureaucrats that have have no first hand knowledge of aviation.
As for previous posters bringing up this is a slippery slope, well that started in 1989 with Hawke. The law has been enshrined.
Canadian and Australian pilot pay scales are roughly the same. I see no problem with Flair Pilots with no family commitments having a working holiday in Oz and seeing the Gold Coast, and in the future Bonza pilots having a working holiday and seeing the Rocky Mountains. Sounds like fun esp if you're single.
Playing Golf eh? More like watching porn and facebook on their computers when they're supposed to be working, Nothing worse that bureaucrats that have have no first hand knowledge of aviation.
As for previous posters bringing up this is a slippery slope, well that started in 1989 with Hawke. The law has been enshrined.
Canadian and Australian pilot pay scales are roughly the same. I see no problem with Flair Pilots with no family commitments having a working holiday in Oz and seeing the Gold Coast, and in the future Bonza pilots having a working holiday and seeing the Rocky Mountains. Sounds like fun esp if you're single.
It is a bad situation. CAC-FLKC is still grounded at OOL. VH-UKH operated into AVV last Friday and something may have gone tech and the aircraft has been grounded there since creating a fair amount of scheduling chaos. Effectively 2 out of their 5 aircraft are grounded. Rumour is CASA is not happy with something and playing it hard. CASA reminded everybody in PR release that they will be closing for Christmas. The second rumor is that they are negotiating with Nauru Airlines to do some ops with a VH registered aircraft. Meanwhile, Canadian Crew enjoy the Gold Coast beaches.
First the attempt to outsource their Flying Ops department, now this? What a Mickey Mouse operation.
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The Qantas wet lease in 2001 was with AWAS holding an Australian AOC,a check and training system, a VH registered aircraft and Australian licenced pilots.This is very different to Flair operating for Bonza.