QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 171
Originally Posted by Transition Layer
Re: 180 day recency issues
Consider this quote from treasury.gov.au about the purpose of JobKeeper:
Has Qantas been using JobKeeper for its intended purpose, or have they been pocketing the cash to help prop up the bottom line? Should the money have been used instead to keep everyone current?
Consider this quote from treasury.gov.au about the purpose of JobKeeper:
Has Qantas been using JobKeeper for its intended purpose, or have they been pocketing the cash to help prop up the bottom line? Should the money have been used instead to keep everyone current?
Mmmmm......Qantas get $1500 per fortnight from Scomo on my behalf. Qantas then pay me $1500 per fortnight whilst I am stood down.
Pretty pedestrian stuff at this point in the game.
Nunc est bibendum
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 5,427
I think the point being made that perhaps QF should have been rostering crew for a sim every 4 weeks and for the jobkeeper to contribute towards paying for that sim.
Jobkeeper would certainly cover the costs for any F/O to do 1 sim a fortnight. It wouldn’t quite cover the cost for a Captain. Of course it definitely wouldn’t cover the costs of the TREs, TRIs and sim instructors required to keep everyone doing a sim every month.
I suspect too there may have been some IR issues around whether a sim a month constitutes ‘useful work’. Personally I reckon it does but I’m not the legal beagle making the decision. Of course many crew may have also not been thrilled to be rostered for a sim every four weeks if they have other work and so on.
Jobkeeper would certainly cover the costs for any F/O to do 1 sim a fortnight. It wouldn’t quite cover the cost for a Captain. Of course it definitely wouldn’t cover the costs of the TREs, TRIs and sim instructors required to keep everyone doing a sim every month.
I suspect too there may have been some IR issues around whether a sim a month constitutes ‘useful work’. Personally I reckon it does but I’m not the legal beagle making the decision. Of course many crew may have also not been thrilled to be rostered for a sim every four weeks if they have other work and so on.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Prison Island (WA)
Posts: 1,411
Originally Posted by Koizi
Pocketing it how?
The money we receive each fortnight wouldn't be paid without JobKeeper, unless I'm missing something?
The money we receive each fortnight wouldn't be paid without JobKeeper, unless I'm missing something?
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 166
During a period of low revenue, it can be wise to delay expenditure. Even if that means it will cost more later.
Surely many of us on on Jobkeeper would be making similar decisions in our personal finances.
Why is this simple concept so hard to understand?
Surely many of us on on Jobkeeper would be making similar decisions in our personal finances.
Why is this simple concept so hard to understand?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Prison Island (WA)
Posts: 1,411
Originally Posted by Derfred
During a period of low revenue, it can be wise to delay expenditure. Even if that means it will cost more later.
Surely many of us on on Jobkeeper would be making similar decisions in our personal finances.
Why is this simple concept so hard to understand?
Surely many of us on on Jobkeeper would be making similar decisions in our personal finances.
Why is this simple concept so hard to understand?
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: australia
Posts: 794
Originally Posted by Derfred
During a period of low revenue, it can be wise to delay expenditure. Even if that means it will cost more later.
Surely many of us on on Jobkeeper would be making similar decisions in our personal finances.
Why is this simple concept so hard to understand?
Surely many of us on on Jobkeeper would be making similar decisions in our personal finances.
Why is this simple concept so hard to understand?
Qantas is not that special - there may not BE a "later".
If there is a later then the management of QF may have to decimate QF (and yes, "never waste a good crisis" mentality from management) to survive until "later"; that will include the pilot group.
Scoot, AirJapan have just laid off their expats...after 6 months or so of this crap, they are international carriers and have finally come to the conclusion there is no clear path regards international travel returning...so time to hunker down, layoff and downsize.
The ramifications of CV19 on air travel are ongoing, unknown and is perilous particularly to international carriers, domestic ops around the world arguably will return faster.
Crossover areas (EU requirements/controls Vs individual states preferences) - anyones guess how to satisfy (or not) everyone.
I DO believe QF will survive - but the next couple of years may see a bloodbath to achieve their survival.
For individuals to automatically assume no hassles for QF when so much ongoing carnage in aviation around the world - gutsy call, hope you're proven correct.
Cheers.
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Straya
Posts: 28
Originally Posted by galdian
Scoot, AirJapan have just laid off their expats...after 6 months or so of this crap.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: centre of my universe
Posts: 289
Originally Posted by galdian
Scoot, AirJapan have just laid off their expats...after 6 months or so of this crap, they are international carriers and have finally come to the conclusion there is no clear path regards international travel returning...so time to hunker down, layoff and downsize.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: australia
Posts: 794
Apologies if badly phrased.
Just struck me a tad "deckchairs on the titanic" to be discussing the currency/return to flying costs when greater interest should be the size and shape of QF in the future - and how many staff/pilots will be required.
Six months in and AirJapan/Scoot are now deciding to downsize, other airlines will be doing the same as total uncertainty regards international travel volumes in 2021 and onwards.
I think QF will survive - although it doesn't have to, just a company and if the expenses continue to exceed income the cash burn will only stop when no more cash to burn, spending money now that doesn't have to be spent would seem illogical.
Might cost more in the future - but QF have to survive to get to that future.
Just struck me a tad "deckchairs on the titanic" to be discussing the currency/return to flying costs when greater interest should be the size and shape of QF in the future - and how many staff/pilots will be required.
Six months in and AirJapan/Scoot are now deciding to downsize, other airlines will be doing the same as total uncertainty regards international travel volumes in 2021 and onwards.
I think QF will survive - although it doesn't have to, just a company and if the expenses continue to exceed income the cash burn will only stop when no more cash to burn, spending money now that doesn't have to be spent would seem illogical.
Might cost more in the future - but QF have to survive to get to that future.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Prison Island (WA)
Posts: 1,411
Originally Posted by Bug Smasher Smasher
Nothing to do with re-training.
Aviation is fairly unique in that it involves long lead in training times, so it’s not as simple as just rehiring staff.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: sincity
Posts: 1,115
Originally Posted by galdian
Apologies if badly phrased.
Just struck me a tad "deckchairs on the titanic" to be discussing the currency/return to flying costs when greater interest should be the size and shape of QF in the future - and how many staff/pilots will be required.
Six months in and AirJapan/Scoot are now deciding to downsize, other airlines will be doing the same as total uncertainty regards international travel volumes in 2021 and onwards.
I think QF will survive - although it doesn't have to, just a company and if the expenses continue to exceed income the cash burn will only stop when no more cash to burn, spending money now that doesn't have to be spent would seem illogical.
Might cost more in the future - but QF have to survive to get to that future.
Just struck me a tad "deckchairs on the titanic" to be discussing the currency/return to flying costs when greater interest should be the size and shape of QF in the future - and how many staff/pilots will be required.
Six months in and AirJapan/Scoot are now deciding to downsize, other airlines will be doing the same as total uncertainty regards international travel volumes in 2021 and onwards.
I think QF will survive - although it doesn't have to, just a company and if the expenses continue to exceed income the cash burn will only stop when no more cash to burn, spending money now that doesn't have to be spent would seem illogical.
Might cost more in the future - but QF have to survive to get to that future.
thats about a 15% reduction in LH crew numbers to start, bearing in mind we've been short for yonks.
also all remaining crew being stood down only costing leave accrual so about a 90% pay cut thus its easier to justify not making a bunch redundant with associated (substantial) costs.
Many/most(?) Other airlines dont have this option available to them.
thats the current state of play at least.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: DeShire
Posts: 110
Yes Maggot.
Qantas pilots are some of the worst off globally during COVID. I think only Finnair is as bad talking to a CPT recently.
Stand down is exceptionally favourable for Qantas but unfavourable to Pilots.
Most countries laws require between 50-80% of salary even if not flying. 188 pilots are leaving via CR. 280 have taken LWOP for years.
Around another 60-80 will be over retirement age when flying returns.
It’s roughly 30-35% of the pilot body that will not be around the next few years. In line with most pilot layoffs around the world
Good news is a vaccine looks like it will arrive before the end of the year. If you look at the 787 flight to nowhere it sold out in less than 10 minutes.
The pent up demand for travel is huge.
Qantas pilots are some of the worst off globally during COVID. I think only Finnair is as bad talking to a CPT recently.
Stand down is exceptionally favourable for Qantas but unfavourable to Pilots.
Most countries laws require between 50-80% of salary even if not flying. 188 pilots are leaving via CR. 280 have taken LWOP for years.
Around another 60-80 will be over retirement age when flying returns.
It’s roughly 30-35% of the pilot body that will not be around the next few years. In line with most pilot layoffs around the world
Good news is a vaccine looks like it will arrive before the end of the year. If you look at the 787 flight to nowhere it sold out in less than 10 minutes.
The pent up demand for travel is huge.
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Oz
Posts: 854
Scoot, AirJapan have just laid off their expats...after 6 months or so of this crap, they are international carriers and have finally come to the conclusion there is no clear path regards international travel returning...so time to hunker down, layoff and downsize.
Cadets won’t really be needed until the 2030s at this stage unless your a bottom feeding prop operation that nobody wants to work for and continues the high turnover.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Syd, NSW
Posts: 369
Originally Posted by PoppaJo
Aussies at Scooter who have been there for a while are in senior roles or perm residents, so are going nowhere are still being paid nearly 50%.
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Oz
Posts: 854
Originally Posted by CaptCloudbuster
I have a close Aussie friend who was a 787 Capt in Scoot. I say was, as last week he was made Compulsorily Redundant.
Those who I worked with about 10-15 years ago in Tiger Singapore remain.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Asia
Posts: 1,181
Most of the foreign pilots in Scoot who did not have permanent residence were let go. However they are first inline when the company needs to recruit again. Unfortunately this is likely to be a number of years as, in common with most airlines, an excess to current requirements is being retained in order to be ready as things pick up.
SIA retrenched a much lower percentage of pilots, also all foreigners sans PR. The main difference is that SIA is a career airline and most non citizens who joined would have intended to stay for their entire career, in which case applying for PR would make sense. Many of the foreigners in Scoot only intended to be there for a few years before moving on and in this case PR wouldn’t have been worth it.
Some will take up other jobs and some will leave the industry all together.
SIA retrenched a much lower percentage of pilots, also all foreigners sans PR. The main difference is that SIA is a career airline and most non citizens who joined would have intended to stay for their entire career, in which case applying for PR would make sense. Many of the foreigners in Scoot only intended to be there for a few years before moving on and in this case PR wouldn’t have been worth it.
Some will take up other jobs and some will leave the industry all together.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 387
Some think QF can stand down staff indefinitely but maybe QF aren’t too sure about it themselves?
QF Annual Report 19/20.
Maybe some in QF Legal have their doubts?
Irrelevant really because AIPA have rolled over on it anyway!
The COVID-19 crisis has necessitated the standing down of a significant portion of employees. While the need to stand down employees will decrease over time, any significant successful legal challenge to the Qantas Group’s ability to stand down employees could likely have a material adverse effect on the Qantas Group’s financial performance and condition.
Maybe some in QF Legal have their doubts?
Irrelevant really because AIPA have rolled over on it anyway!
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 488
Originally Posted by Wingspar
Maybe some in QF Legal have their doubts?
Irrelevant really because AIPA have rolled over on it anyway!
Irrelevant really because AIPA have rolled over on it anyway!
If you want to run a case that pilots can’t be stood down when there are no border restrictions in place (for example), then you need to wait until there are no border restrictions before you can run that case.
No point running a case against the stand down now whilst domestic and international border restrictions quite obviously leave the business untenable. All you’d do is lose a whole lot of members money on legal fees and embolden Qantas to drag the stand down out further.
