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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

Old 3rd Sep 2020, 23:20
  #1741 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting concept Dr , would have thought when you go on to the 787 you would get year 1 787 rates, as the years are "on category" aren't they , not years
of service for rest of fleet. The 350 rates look pretty healthy , that is for crew on the books now - if you get CR & get re-hired your hourly max as an SO is $115

No got that wrong there is pay protection for SOs going to the 787 , AIPA just forgot about pay protection for Pilots who get made redundant & come back on year 1 level & also B scale (if A350 ordered). But take huge win pay protection for 18 months if you transfer to 787 -that's the big picture stuff

Interesting comment above re: likely no CRs , - to expensive. The "back of coaster" calc I did , the CR is a no- brainer if QF want to preserve cash

The break even for CR vs stand down is at max 24 months (& you could argue even one year for A330 guys). The reason ,significant pay increments in early years as SO (at least on the A330), that alone(without even considering leave accruals) would pay for a CR for an A330 SO . The multiplier effect of getting a couple of years of service pay increments as a SO is very significant , especially for the A330 increasing approx 30% in first two years

Clearly a lot of guys here just foxing along , claiming you don't return on a B scale or year 1 after CR , "it's all in the eba" - sure it is , and a decree has been issued
stating there will be no CR - sure thing. Clearly the motivation is(or was) to keep as many people below them to absorb any CR

Ironic how AIPA didn't get current crew quarantined from the B scale

lwop/CRs ,even VRs might have been avoided or very much minimised if different strategy had been adopted , pay cut of "X" for certain number of years. AIPA
should have pushed this along , has worked so far at a number of other airlines, project pilotkeeper waste of time & energy

Incredible to hear guys state here , that is not something they would contemplate

Last edited by Telfer86; 3rd Sep 2020 at 23:53.
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Old 3rd Sep 2020, 23:31
  #1742 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Doesn't an existing SO who transfers to the 787 (and I assume 350 too) only keep their existing conditions for 18 months before going onto the new T&Cs?
They maintain A330 conditions (not 380) for 18 months, unless their seniority means they are essentially turning down a promotion, (obviously not an immediate issue!) in which case they would revert to 787 pay. Yr12 A330 vs 787 pay for people of that vintage. So you are right that it’s a drop either way but my point was that an A380 SO who was in theory CRd would not necessarily return as an A380 SO. But...yeah...it’s not going to happen imho so not worth more words.
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Old 3rd Sep 2020, 23:55
  #1743 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Telfer86 View Post

The break even for CR vs stand down is at max 24 months (& you could argue even one year for A330 guys).
Now there you go talking rubbish again. Your logic is not how the break even calculation is made for a liquid company when it comes to CR. Operational considerations/assumptions combined with cashflow are input with a 3-5 year timeframe. The logic is that it is almost always cheaper for a company confident of survival to offer VR than enforce CR over a 5 year time frame.

Additionally, globally there will be a massive strain on training resources. Where and when will all the new type courses be done? Do you remember or know about the 737 training nightmare a few years back...take that and put it on a global scale. Those company who can minimise type transfers etc will have much greater operational flexibility during the recovery. This factor, Telfer, also contributes to an operational break even decision (if actually needed).

It is why (with cost benefits obviously) overseas airlines desire to make redundancy based on type not seniority.

Last edited by crosscutter; 4th Sep 2020 at 01:28.
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 00:51
  #1744 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe we should have voted no, left the EA open, had a heap of CR and then rehired on a Z scale 350 pay post covid
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 01:00
  #1745 (permalink)  
 
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Telfer. What are your motives? Who do you work for? Iím pretty sure you do not have skin in this game at QF, but please correct me if you do?
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 01:15
  #1746 (permalink)  
Keg

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Those pay rates that Telfer is talking about also presume that the A350 is enterIng service and we’re training people onto it. If that’s the case then there are likely to be lots of training/ promotion available on every other type in mainline. The re-hired S/Os aren’t going to have to worry about being on that lower pay rate for very long if that’s the case as they’ll have the ability to bid off it fairly quickly.
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 06:49
  #1747 (permalink)  
Keg

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Originally Posted by Keg View Post
Those pay rates that Telfer is talking about also presume that the A350 is enterIng service and weíre training people onto it. If thatís the case then there are likely to be lots of training/ promotion available on every other type in mainline. The re-hired S/Os arenít going to have to worry about being on that lower pay rate for very long if thatís the case as theyíll have the ability to bid off it fairly quickly.
The official line on the webinar today was that Qantas ďdonít knowĒ what pay rate CRíd crew would be re-hired on as theyíre not looking at any CRs at all in the short to medium term.

Further, Qantas are after EA variations to decrease the cost base as the fleets stand back up again. Therefore it could be relatively easy to ensure that any variation put to the vote confirms explicitly that CRíd S/Os return on their current rate when they are subsequently re-employed.So any commentary by Telfer about what rate crew would be re-employed on is quite premature unless Qantas makes crew CR within the next month or so- something they have said they will not be doing.
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 07:31
  #1748 (permalink)  
 
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The talk is "quite premature" to be speculating , well I would have to say that is a very unusual comment to make

QF management have the right to have another plan & start CR from next week, all other steps required prior to CR have now
been done. Someone senior is thinking about what AC & ANZ did

Perhaps it is very relevant to guys in bottom 1000 , whether they will get paid $100 an hour as an SO or their current year $150 / $160 etc

QF refusing to talk about pay rates for returned CR on the basis that it isn't planned , sounds like this is very a much a "restricted topic" . Why an earth would
company not want to tell you that many SOs will be dropping $100K plus if they decide to CR ? - is it their job to do AIPAs job ? . I don't think AIPA will have
so much chance of closing , what they missed in negotiating 10 ("holly mackerel fellas we have dropped our own guys on B scale/year 1") , that horse has bolted

QF already know the rates, anyone who can read knows the rates , you return on year 1 on either current scale or B scale (max of $115 an hour, if 350 ordered)

Angry (why an earth did you chose that name) , was really just referring to a variation kind of thing for when everyone (still on books) is stood up. Sure a bit different
from other airlines who have done similar who remained getting paychecks , but the principal is just the same & I would have thought worth giving a try. AIPA should
have acted earlier , the time to do this would have been before VR, LWOP , that's when you had the most bargaining power. Agree continued SD is a loser , but very much
for both parties , you aren't fully taking into account how much QF are losing (or were going to lose) from SOs getting yearly increases. The cost of SD just pushes
QF closer to CR. You said SD might last a year , so all over in March 2021 ? , are you actually serious there ? ; SDs is going to be for a few years for most LH crew

AIPA have just sat on their hands & let the bargaining position diminish & let QF run the agenda - could these guys possibly have done a worse job ? The two misses
on eba 10 , it's beyond words - like forgetting to put a sunset clause in

Keg, "The new hire SOs will be able to bid off very quickly" - I think you are thinking of the last three or so years , that is pre-global pandemic. SH is the "safest" place to be
& everyone will be trying to move there. Not to mention global recession , I think people will be staying SOs for many years , definitely over 5 years maybe approaching 10.
How is it you know what promotion rates will be post - pandemic in long haul

But let's not talk about pay rates of SOs when they return , & the subsequent net effect on career earnings because some people here have stated it just isn't appropriate

And enough people have stated CR will not occur - therefore that has to correct

Last edited by Telfer86; 4th Sep 2020 at 07:45.
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 07:37
  #1749 (permalink)  
 
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Why do you keep posting Telfer. You don’t work for QF, so why do you care so much?
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 07:45
  #1750 (permalink)  
 
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The best thing a person in the bottom 1000 seniority could do is block you. There are many balanced and unbiased posters who reply with the most current information and actual company lines, and will highlight BS when appropriate. The problem here is the BS is coming from you and not the company. (IMHO) I know this comes across as personal, I don’t mean it that way, just highlighting that QF is not out to get you, or f**k anyone over, and their commentary is more valid than conspiracy theories or rumour.

I’d like to thank the 260 LWOP applicants. Look forward to flying with you at some point.
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 08:19
  #1751 (permalink)  
Keg

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Originally Posted by Telfer86 View Post
The talk is "quite premature" to be speculating , well I would have to say that is a very unusual comment to make

QF management have the right to have another plan & start CR from next week, all other steps required prior to CR have now
been done. Someone senior is thinking about what AC & ANZ did
I don’t know about AC (Air China? Air Canada?) but Air New Zealand can NOT stand down crew the way that Qantas has. It’s a very different IR environment which is why they pulled the trigger on CR so quickly. If you’re half as good as you make out to be then you already know this. Or you don’t know it and you’re not half as good as you make out to be.

QF have said repeatedly that they’re not planning on CR. They’ve said repeatedly that they’re focusing on the VR, ER, LWOP and EA variations as to how to manage the surplus now and into the future.

Could they be blind siding the pilot group? Sure. Could there be a meteor hurtling toward earth? Sure. Both are about the same probability. Particularly when the VR is unlikely to have been finalised within that time frame also and is a necessary first step to have resolved prior to CR.

I also know that the main focus in Flight Ops at the moment is dealing with the VR, ER, LWOP and EA issues that that no one is even considering CR until after these other issues are dealt with.

My recommendation for any Qantas pilot is to take crosscutter’s advice and use the ‘ignore’ function for Telfer. In post after post they’ve pursued a singular line of argument that is quite ignorant of what is actually happening within the airline. Their motivation? Who freaking knows. From here on though they’ll be pushing their crap at one less person.
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 08:29
  #1752 (permalink)  
 
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How do you ignore someone? Where is that function?
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 09:30
  #1753 (permalink)  
Keg

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User CP, Left side column, edit ignore list, add the name, click submit. Voila!
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 09:33
  #1754 (permalink)  
 
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Tel****all has some type of agenda here. Which isnít to the benefit of the individuals concerned nor what the company line is.

One could almost bet that he works for a startup or a company thatís in competition and is trying to scare people into making irrational decision to interrupt a fast ramp up.

Qantas is unique. It can hang on to itís resources, ride out the storm and ramp up very quickly with those resources on short notice. The international competition will need years to achieve the same.
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 09:42
  #1755 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Keg View Post
User CP, Left side column, edit ignore list, add the name, click submit. Voila!
Done. Thanks.
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 09:59
  #1756 (permalink)  
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QF already know the rates, anyone who can read knows the rates , you return on year 1 on either current scale or B scale (max of $115 an hour, if 350 ordered
Can you read? If someone is CRíd and they DO come back on that aircraft, by the time they do the rates will be higher than that. To the tune of at least $7k a year.

That aircraft will be doing routes with overtime, S/O on that aircraft will most likely be earning $140 k odd... most likely a bit better than whatever career Theyíve found in the mean time and certainly nothing to sniff at after a 2-300k CR payout.

Stop with the FUd campaign. Itís tiresome.
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 10:27
  #1757 (permalink)  
 
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Why on earth is Telfer trying to blame Aipa for this? Seriously, if anyone this time a year ago could have seen how things would be now, then yes they would have been aiming to do what you think they should have done with regards to the EBA.

So Telfer, when something happens in an aircraft that a non-normal procedure hasn't been written for, are you going to deal with it in a logical and common sense matter, or sit back and whine that there should be a written procedure, and you are going to blame someone? Ignore the problem and just whine?

I know exactly the risk of CR and being re-employed. I made my decision on the way forward for what is best for me. The CR payout would offset future losses to some extent. Nobody is going to be a winner through all of this, but each of us has to do what is best for our own individual circumstances. The decision you, I, or Donald Duck make, is not the same decision everyone else has to subscribe to.

And of all the other airlines I know outside of Aust, the minimum any group of my friends is getting is 50% of their pay while they are not working. So yes, they accepted a 50% cut, but still get a truckload more than I do in their monthly pay. If their companies had the same clause for stand down available, they would be getting the same as us.

I am sick of a couple of people here who have nothing better than to try and turn this into union bashing, fleet bashing, rank bashing, age bashing, or beat up on the guy who may be one more number senior to you. Through all of this, it's time to look out for your mates. Not try to turn them against each other.
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 11:49
  #1758 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Blueskymine View Post
Tel****all has some type of agenda here. Which isnít to the benefit of the individuals concerned nor what the company line is.

One could almost bet that he works for a startup or a company thatís in competition and is trying to scare people into making irrational decision to interrupt a fast ramp up.
I doubt it. Whether people are on stand down, have taken LWOP or have been made CR (which wonít be happening) if QF decide they need to ramp up quickly and make the call to come back to work, all 3 of those groups will flock back faster than a speeding bullet.

Qantas is unique. It can hang on to itís resources, ride out the storm and ramp up very quickly with those resources on short notice. The international competition will need years to achieve the same.
Maybe, but the International competitors have the advantage of mostly being government funded and can ramp up operations initially even if they arenít profitable. It is a bit of a concern to see Qatar for instance still operating to Australia on regular schedules throughout this time.
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 13:32
  #1759 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
I doubt it. Whether people are on stand down, have taken LWOP or have been made CR (which wonít be happening) if QF decide they need to ramp up quickly and make the call to come back to work, all 3 of those groups will flock back faster than a speeding bullet.



Maybe, but the International competitors have the advantage of mostly being government funded and can ramp up operations initially even if they arenít profitable. It is a bit of a concern to see Qatar for instance still operating to Australia on regular schedules throughout this time.
How quickly do you think expat airlines can recall 1000s of pilots from all corners of the world, plus cabin crew, get them current and get them going, while competing with the others that want them?

Qantas wonít have that problem.
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 14:34
  #1760 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Telfer86 View Post
I think people will be staying SOs for many years , definitely over 5 years maybe approaching 10.
How is it you know what promotion rates will be post - pandemic in long haul
How is it that you know what promotion rates will be?
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