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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

Old 29th Aug 2020, 03:33
  #1681 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Sydney
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Originally Posted by travelator View Post
For those that donít rely on freedom of travel. For everyone else it is a soul crushing and destructive time.
No, itís still a happy environment to be in, even with such a huge impact on our jobs.

Originally Posted by goodonyamate View Post
as you suck off the teet of the eastern states. Wait until the relationship with China really sours. Then youíll have nothing, and will be screaming like stuck pigs.
The mining related activity around Perth Airport would very strongly suggest there isnít much sucking of the Eastern teat going on. If the China relationship goes South, well the whole country is screwed.
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Old 29th Aug 2020, 03:47
  #1682 (permalink)  
Keg

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Originally Posted by OzSync View Post

Life is normal and fun and happy in WA.
Itís not far away from Ďnormalí here in NSW either. Sure, we canít have a full SCG for the footy but community sport is still going with people being sensible about the precautions that need to be taken.

Itís time to learn to live with this disease. As the kiwis demonstrated this thing will re-surface at some stage. Locking borders down every few months is not a long term solution.
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Old 29th Aug 2020, 04:37
  #1683 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OzSync View Post
No, itís still a happy environment to be in, even with such a huge impact on our jobs.



The mining related activity around Perth Airport would very strongly suggest there isnít much sucking of the Eastern teat going on. If the China relationship goes South, well the whole country is screwed.
that federal GST teat...
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Old 29th Aug 2020, 04:57
  #1684 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OzSync View Post
No, itís still a happy environment to be in, even with such a huge impact on our jobs.
My mistake. Rainbows and lollipops it is. I better tell my mates, colleagues and family that even though kids are being pulled from their schools, mortgages are under enormous pressure and itís tuna and 2 minute noodles for dinner again, itís actually a happy environment.
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Old 29th Aug 2020, 07:16
  #1685 (permalink)  
 
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Genuine question

Whenever I ask or put the rates of pay that a redundant pilot gets if they are re-employed by QF pretty much deathly silence

Now why would that be ?

My reading of agreement is that only seniority is preserved if CR are returned, years of service for reinstated medical terminations is specifically stated
but nothing for return of redundant pilots. Yes it is explained years of service credited from CTL for SO but nothing specified about employment experience 1, also being included
So it seems to be a logical conclusion that if CR occurs & you are reemployed you would be on year 1 pay - just a straightforward interpretation of agreement. Then you also
have new B scale SO rates which top out at $115 per hour if A350 is ordered (call that C scale, if 787 SO pay is B scale)

If what some people are saying is correct & vast majority SOs who joined since 2016 taken lwop , then if CR does come it will hit those longer term SOs who joined up until
January 2009 who are top of scale. That's going to be a substantial pay cut , in current dollars from $170 an hour back to $100 per hour & you could well expect to be a C scale
for some time. Your career earnings would be vastly lower than someone who took lwop

Not trying to be a smart alec or upset anybody, but why is this such a taboo subject ?

& instead people trying to talk up the downside of taking lwop , that QF might tell you to "go away" after your lwop term expires. 300 plus guys took lwop over last decade
didn't happen once to my knowledge , why float this scenario now

Personally I think CR will come to all who joined since 2016 & QF would easily pay for it just out of savings for pausing years of service pay increases , not even thinking about
leave accruals , & all the rest of it. Just pay 26 weeks on today's pay rate today's dollars today , done , finished , over
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Old 29th Aug 2020, 12:52
  #1686 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Telfer86 View Post
Genuine question

Whenever I ask or put the rates of pay that a redundant pilot gets if they are re-employed by QF pretty much deathly silence

Now why would that be ?

My reading of agreement is that only seniority is preserved if CR are returned, years of service for reinstated medical terminations is specifically stated
but nothing for return of redundant pilots. Yes it is explained years of service credited from CTL for SO but nothing specified about employment experience 1, also being included
So it seems to be a logical conclusion that if CR occurs & you are reemployed you would be on year 1 pay - just a straightforward interpretation of agreement. Then you also
have new B scale SO rates which top out at $115 per hour if A350 is ordered (call that C scale, if 787 SO pay is B scale)

If what some people are saying is correct & vast majority SOs who joined since 2016 taken lwop , then if CR does come it will hit those longer term SOs who joined up until
January 2009 who are top of scale. That's going to be a substantial pay cut , in current dollars from $170 an hour back to $100 per hour & you could well expect to be a C scale
for some time. Your career earnings would be vastly lower than someone who took lwop

Not trying to be a smart alec or upset anybody, but why is this such a taboo subject ?

& instead people trying to talk up the downside of taking lwop , that QF might tell you to "go away" after your lwop term expires. 300 plus guys took lwop over last decade
didn't happen once to my knowledge , why float this scenario now

Personally I think CR will come to all who joined since 2016 & QF would easily pay for it just out of savings for pausing years of service pay increases , not even thinking about
leave accruals , & all the rest of it. Just pay 26 weeks on today's pay rate today's dollars today , done , finished , over
more fearmongering

I dont know which year scale you go on to but its dependant on lots of factors and hardly an issue like you are striving to make it seem.

stick with your current hourly but 50% divisors or whatever may happen and your musings are moot.

someone may come back and go onto the 737 or whatever and your musings are moot.
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Old 29th Aug 2020, 12:59
  #1687 (permalink)  
 
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Don't think there will be be so many NB RHS or LHS places in the future as SH is the safer place to be

You would be a mug to stay in LH if you could move back to SH

My reading of the agreement is that you return on year 1 SO scale(& possibly a C scale at that) , how does it depend on "many things" & where are they mentioned in agreement ?

I'd suggest to you it doesn't depend on "many things" - that a CR would simply return on year 1 payscale

Why wouldn't it be an issue as people do a cost benefit analysis against taking lwop or not , the basic question , when would I be likely to be re-employed and how much money would I get paid if I did get re-employed ? Is accruing annual leave & other other entitlements atm , how does that lay off against T & Cs if I did get re-employed

The message & push on this thread is "don't take lwop everything will be alright " & as soon as anybody suggests anything contrary, told they are fear mongering

All sorts of silly suggestions that lwop might be turned away when they seek to return & are trying to "jump above" those more "senior" to them & hat is some kind of original sin

Clearly people just want a layer of people beneath them to soak up any CRs

Last edited by Telfer86; 29th Aug 2020 at 13:34.
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Old 29th Aug 2020, 13:25
  #1688 (permalink)  
 
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For goodness sake Telfer, Normanton, et al, please stop your dribble and just go read the award in itís entirety. There is no going back to year 1 pay scale, it is covered by paragraph 32.1 32.2 32.3 and 32.5 what constitutes your pay scale. The only thing that resets when returning from CR is the years of service when calculating a future redundancy payment. That seems fair enough as if they have already paid you out a redundancy once it would be unreasonable to be paid a second time for those years of service.

BTW, once you finish reading the award, a read of this may also be worthwhile. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henny_Penny
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Old 29th Aug 2020, 13:27
  #1689 (permalink)  
 
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Call AIPA ffs telfy
they'll set you right
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Old 29th Aug 2020, 14:03
  #1690 (permalink)  
 
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Well I appreciate the references but I am not convinced that years of service are credited upon re-employment after a redundancy
, I was looking at 35.2 & thought the company would simply say - well this means we count years of service from SO ctl after this stint of
employment - not when you were employed years ago

I just don't think it is clear.

There is still the issue of the new Airbus pay scales for SOs if the A350 is ordered - they are unavoidable & substantially lower

Last edited by Telfer86; 29th Aug 2020 at 14:18.
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Old 29th Aug 2020, 16:31
  #1691 (permalink)  
 
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Telfer

Call AIPA.

Unless you arenít a member, in which case please get your career advice from PPRuNe.
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Old 30th Aug 2020, 00:27
  #1692 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
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Itís interesting in a recent interview with Bloomberg (20/08/20), AJ said the following;

Ē Itís a sensible decision to assume the 380ís and 777ís(787ís) need to be parked for at least a year and so we can save the costs associated with those aircraft and help reduce the cash burn for our international business.Ē

I think AJ contradicted himself there and let the cat out of the bag by declaring it was a Ďdecisioní to ground the 380 and 787 fleet purely to reduce long term cash burn. In regards to labor, it might satisfy stand down provisions now but would appear the long term grounding of these fleets is a commercial decision by QF and based on that, wonít satisfy stand down provisions post restrictions being lifted.



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Old 30th Aug 2020, 00:58
  #1693 (permalink)  
 
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Wingspar you do know what's been happening around the world with company's that don't have stand down options? Let me fill you in - mass pilot redundancy.

Be careful what you wish for, I don't know a single SO who hasn't taken LWOP with the contract clearly outlining bypass for redundancy.
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Old 30th Aug 2020, 01:05
  #1694 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by normanton View Post
Wingspar you do know what's been happening around the world with company's that don't have stand down options? Let me fill you in - mass pilot redundancy.

Be careful what you wish for, I don't know a single SO who hasn't taken LWOP with the contract clearly outlining bypass for redundancy.
I know numerous SOs that havenít Normanton, so itís not a blanket statement.

Last few days I have been refraining on posting on here since most of our individual opinions are unchanged and this is going around in circles.

Since 31st Aug is tomorrow, letís just leave all the speculation and see what happens. I think thatís what 95% of employees are probably doing.

Hereís hoping Spring holds some hope for us all, that includes our collegues in all the other companies too...


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Old 30th Aug 2020, 01:25
  #1695 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by normanton View Post
Be careful what you wish for, I don't know a single SO who hasn't taken LWOP with the contract clearly outlining bypass for redundancy.
I havenít! I was burnt by the GD flexiline scam back in the day, so Iíll be damned if Iíll be helping the Company out a second time!
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Old 30th Aug 2020, 01:29
  #1696 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Green.Dot View Post

Last few days I have been refraining on posting on here since most of our individual opinions are unchanged and this is going around in circles.
Well I agree, but Wingspar's comment is just stupid. The only thing saving mass redundancy right now is stand down. And yet here they are trying to justify a quote from Allan that invalidates the stand down. Ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Mafortion View Post
I haven’t! I was burnt by the GD flexiline scam back in the day, so I’ll be damned if I’ll be helping the Company out a second time!
More info please.
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Old 30th Aug 2020, 02:05
  #1697 (permalink)  
 
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Normie, I’m glad you are going to take one for the company. I’m just stating the facts. It’s not the local flying club, this is a business and I’ve seen too many times QF screwing employees.
Insist on what you are entitled to. Do you think TLS is taking one for you? Nah! He will get looked after.
The fact is, as AJ alluded to in the Bloomberg interview, Domestic is the profit driver and that is where the attention is in the short term.
International on the other hand has always been marginal even more so now. Especially since they’ve segmented the business over the years and now International is just a flying business. As he stated they will shut it down and stand everyone down for at least a year to save the International cash burn.
Their decision!
If he gets domestic running up to anywhere near precovid levels by June 30 next year that will be not just be cost neutral but most probably profitable especially with VA against the ropes.
International though as he said will only be profitable if all the jets are flying. So keep it shut down, in his words, for at least a year to reduce cash burn.
Are you happy to be stood down indefinitely while loyalty and freight are making money? Domestic hopefully will be making money in the medium term? While extra jets and jobs are going to Network?
Why are they wanting to reduce MGH when no ones flying? Because they know they can’t keep everyone stood down indefinitely.
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Old 30th Aug 2020, 04:58
  #1698 (permalink)  
Keg

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Originally Posted by normanton View Post
More info please.
Early 2008, post GFC and the airline struggling. Flight Ops told to save $8 million or redundancies likely. A number of crew took reduced hour Flexi lines or LWOP. The $8 million was saved.

In August it was announced that Geoff Dixon’s bonus was $8 million.
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Old 30th Aug 2020, 07:33
  #1699 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Keg View Post
Early 2008, post GFC and the airline struggling. Flight Ops told to save $8 million or redundancies likely. A number of crew took reduced hour Flexi lines or LWOP. The $8 million was saved.

In August it was announced that Geoff Dixonís bonus was $8 million.
plus the sars payfreeze that was banked
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Old 30th Aug 2020, 09:05
  #1700 (permalink)  
 
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Not sure how a claimed figure of former CEOs pay rate or bonus is relevant - more "deep state" conspiracy nonsense

I don't know if lwop are "taking one for the company" , more just protecting themselves from CR & all that entails

Not sure how the view of AIPA is relevant , they aren't the ones who will be signing the paychecks and determining how the agreement will
be interpreted regarding years of service. My reading is that you would return on year 1 , and if A350 is ordered be subject to SO rates that max at $115 an hour

Why would you reference the AIPA they botched these components of the agreement, now guys are looking at the "unintended consequences" scenario where they come
back on year 1 and/or "new SO pay rates". If CR goes down to people who were hired before 2016 , you will come back on around half your current wage

No lwop , you accrue leave , stay on Jobkeeper , keep the years of service increments ticking over. But if CR does come, you will likely return years after lwop
people on year 1 pay rates , & quite likely C scale SO. Also no opportunities within the QF group once gone - just a return right to QF mainline if/when they hire externals

Take lwop , no leave or years of service accrual, move to Jobseeker, but protected against CR , lwop is fixed term & has been well managed in the past. Opportunities at the
other 7 or 8 QF airlines in Australia. No need to worry about the "new SO rates"

Each to their own I just think that those who don't take lwop , well there is potentially (& quite high probability) of an enormous downside for the sake of continuing to accrue leave, years of service & remain on jobkeeper. The loss of wages for the extra time you are on the street (as compared to lwop) & then coming back at year 1 (& quite likely C scale) could easily be seven figures.

The lost wages have three potential components
1. No opportunities for other QF group flying jobs if you get CR
2. The "gap" between when a lwop Vs CR returns
3. The "unintended consequences" effect , return on year 1 & quite possibly on new SO scale

Placing a big bet there, can't see what the great upside is of not taking lwop , if you get it wrong it could be a very long time on the sidelines. Five years on the sidelines would be a dream result , remember after January 2009 , QF didn't hire for 7.5 years & we didn't feel the GFC so much here.

I don't understand how people can speak with such certainty about what happens on return from CR - it hasn't happened before


Last edited by Telfer86; 30th Aug 2020 at 09:28.
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