Seniority
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sydney
Age: 41
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Thanks for the lecture angryrat, but I haven't been fueling any insecurities at all.
I do believe the RIN process should be followed. Even the chief pilot thinks that. He was asked this exact question in a webinar, and he replied "we will follow the RIN process at an appropriate time".
Furthermore, HR have confirmed on the webinars that the stand down has no time limit.
Many people, including your senior colleagues can see exactly whats at play here, and how the company is maneuvering around it. The company is following the EBA as it stands - they are just using a provision that many senior pilots aren't happy with. It's our senior colleagues who have clearly been trying to wiggle their way around the EBA by using their "seniority" to move to the "light twin" when in fact, they can't do that under the EBA provisions in play here. So forgive me, as a junior pilot in the company for standing up for myself, and countless others who all have a career at play here.
And I don't buy your argument that all senior pilots voted YES to secure the 350 flying for the younger generation. It was going to be a much closer YES vote, until the unfortunate dose of reality hit many of our senior colleagues about just how important it suddenly was to secure the flying. I can only imagine how many of them are now thinking "thank christ we secured that 350 jet".
And yes, I am very pissed off at the company for screwing around senior pilots on long term sick leave. It's appalling.
I do believe the RIN process should be followed. Even the chief pilot thinks that. He was asked this exact question in a webinar, and he replied "we will follow the RIN process at an appropriate time".
Furthermore, HR have confirmed on the webinars that the stand down has no time limit.
Many people, including your senior colleagues can see exactly whats at play here, and how the company is maneuvering around it. The company is following the EBA as it stands - they are just using a provision that many senior pilots aren't happy with. It's our senior colleagues who have clearly been trying to wiggle their way around the EBA by using their "seniority" to move to the "light twin" when in fact, they can't do that under the EBA provisions in play here. So forgive me, as a junior pilot in the company for standing up for myself, and countless others who all have a career at play here.
And I don't buy your argument that all senior pilots voted YES to secure the 350 flying for the younger generation. It was going to be a much closer YES vote, until the unfortunate dose of reality hit many of our senior colleagues about just how important it suddenly was to secure the flying. I can only imagine how many of them are now thinking "thank christ we secured that 350 jet".
And yes, I am very pissed off at the company for screwing around senior pilots on long term sick leave. It's appalling.
’Clearly’? You must have some evidence or knowledge beyond what most of us have, to state this with such confidence. All I’ve heard of it was the ‘allegedly’ in post #39. I’m sure we’d all be very interested to read the details, if you’d care to share them with us.
Join Date: Dec 2002
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One thing I've learn't from a long career in aviation is how quickly pilot's will turn on each other when the going gets tough.
I have witnessed first hand the hostility at an overseas location when 2002 Ansett refugees met 1989 #hitfight refugees.
Not pretty.
I have witnessed first hand the hostility at an overseas location when 2002 Ansett refugees met 1989 #hitfight refugees.
Not pretty.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: back to the land of small pay and big bills
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Holy crap have you guys not seen the wreckage at the top of the seniority lists? The multiple marriages, multiple children, multiple surgeries for back, knee or tumors who have spent years spending shed loads of money trying to get their medical back? The half conscious jet lagged nights of cheap wine on the other side of the world with all the other temptations..I reckon every other long haul captain I’ve flown with has very good reason to hang on as long as possible
Join Date: Oct 2013
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Holy crap have you guys not seen the wreckage at the top of the seniority lists? The multiple marriages, multiple children, multiple surgeries for back, knee or tumors who have spent years spending shed loads of money trying to get their medical back? The half conscious jet lagged nights of cheap wine on the other side of the world with all the other temptations..I reckon every other long haul captain I’ve flown with has very good reason to hang on as long as possible
For many people, men in particular, their work is their life. For some, time away from family makes the time with family that much better, for others, they just need to be away. At work, they have a captive audience and are surrounded by people who share their interests and understand their lives. This applies to all industries, not just pilots. As women become more career oriented due either to desire or opportunity, they, too, will fall into the category of those afraid or unwilling to let go.
People used to retire at 65 and be dead at 66. If you made it to 70 you were doing well; to make it to 80 was extraordinary. With the current epidemic targeting the elderly, this will again become the norm.
If you want someone to step down so that you get the chance to step up then deriding them is the wrong way to go about it. When you ride with an old timer, tell him stories of what you will do when you retire, how you will travel the world at your own leisure, sleeping at night and not chasing sleep all day. Put dreams in his head about sailing adventures and Tiger Moths but don't suggest cruising. Paint the picture for them if they cannot see past a life of work for themselves. Be subtle, not aggressive, friendly, not nasty, mature, not a 2 year old.
Of cause, you probably aren't riding with anyone at the moment and can't even put dreams about at the pub but when you go back to work in whatever capacity, be smart about upsetting the people on top of the pile or they may just stay there a little longer just to keep you in your place. Who could blame them.
People used to retire at 65 and be dead at 66. If you made it to 70 you were doing well; to make it to 80 was extraordinary. With the current epidemic targeting the elderly, this will again become the norm.
If you want someone to step down so that you get the chance to step up then deriding them is the wrong way to go about it. When you ride with an old timer, tell him stories of what you will do when you retire, how you will travel the world at your own leisure, sleeping at night and not chasing sleep all day. Put dreams in his head about sailing adventures and Tiger Moths but don't suggest cruising. Paint the picture for them if they cannot see past a life of work for themselves. Be subtle, not aggressive, friendly, not nasty, mature, not a 2 year old.
Of cause, you probably aren't riding with anyone at the moment and can't even put dreams about at the pub but when you go back to work in whatever capacity, be smart about upsetting the people on top of the pile or they may just stay there a little longer just to keep you in your place. Who could blame them.
Join Date: Oct 2013
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For many people, men in particular, their work is their life. For some, time away from family makes the time with family that much better, for others, they just need to be away. At work, they have a captive audience and are surrounded by people who share their interests and understand their lives. This applies to all industries, not just pilots. As women become more career oriented due either to desire or opportunity, they, too, will fall into the category of those afraid or unwilling to let go.
People used to retire at 65 and be dead at 66. If you made it to 70 you were doing well; to make it to 80 was extraordinary. With the current epidemic targeting the elderly, this will again become the norm.
If you want someone to step down so that you get the chance to step up then deriding them is the wrong way to go about it. When you ride with an old timer, tell him stories of what you will do when you retire, how you will travel the world at your own leisure, sleeping at night and not chasing sleep all day. Put dreams in his head about sailing adventures and Tiger Moths but don't suggest cruising. Paint the picture for them if they cannot see past a life of work for themselves. Be subtle, not aggressive, friendly, not nasty, mature, not a 2 year old.
Of cause, you probably aren't riding with anyone at the moment and can't even put dreams about at the pub but when you go back to work in whatever capacity, be smart about upsetting the people on top of the pile or they may just stay there a little longer just to keep you in your place. Who could blame them.
People used to retire at 65 and be dead at 66. If you made it to 70 you were doing well; to make it to 80 was extraordinary. With the current epidemic targeting the elderly, this will again become the norm.
If you want someone to step down so that you get the chance to step up then deriding them is the wrong way to go about it. When you ride with an old timer, tell him stories of what you will do when you retire, how you will travel the world at your own leisure, sleeping at night and not chasing sleep all day. Put dreams in his head about sailing adventures and Tiger Moths but don't suggest cruising. Paint the picture for them if they cannot see past a life of work for themselves. Be subtle, not aggressive, friendly, not nasty, mature, not a 2 year old.
Of cause, you probably aren't riding with anyone at the moment and can't even put dreams about at the pub but when you go back to work in whatever capacity, be smart about upsetting the people on top of the pile or they may just stay there a little longer just to keep you in your place. Who could blame them.
Last edited by Paragraph377; 15th Apr 2020 at 01:18.
Excellent insight, Kelly!
The problem for many older pilots is not only multiple ex-wives to support and a big decline in their superannuation. It is that so many think that they are incapable of doing anything other than flying and a few have such big egos that they can not live without the imagined adulation.
If they never developed interests outside their job, now is the time to re-evaluate priorities. Calculate the likely number of years of good health and physical fitness remaining. 5? 10? 15? but probably not 20. Developing an interest will go a long way to improving both mental and physical well-being.
I have been retired from flying for five years now, but until recently still involved in aviation. I chose to get completely out of the game a month before this crisis hit and like so many have seen my superannuation take a flogging.
But with other interests keeping me busy enough I can honestly say I do not miss aviation and will just have to scale back some bucket list items to fit a more modest budget.
Re sailing: if someone is approaching 65 and has never sailed they may have left it too late for that particular activity. Especially if that hip replacement was not a good job! Besides which it is an expensive hobby unless you build or buy a small boat. But learning to sail a dinghy would be a great idea for someone still reasonably fit.
There are other pursuits - restore an old motor bike, build a new shed, ruin a good walk with golf, grow grapes, distill your own whisky, learn a language (Swahili comes easy when you drink good home brew)... the possibilities are endless.
What any pilot approaching the age of 65 must now face is the probability that their flying days are over. Go gracefully. Don't bore your friends with tales of your past exploits - no one except you really gives a sh!t.
The problem for many older pilots is not only multiple ex-wives to support and a big decline in their superannuation. It is that so many think that they are incapable of doing anything other than flying and a few have such big egos that they can not live without the imagined adulation.
If they never developed interests outside their job, now is the time to re-evaluate priorities. Calculate the likely number of years of good health and physical fitness remaining. 5? 10? 15? but probably not 20. Developing an interest will go a long way to improving both mental and physical well-being.
I have been retired from flying for five years now, but until recently still involved in aviation. I chose to get completely out of the game a month before this crisis hit and like so many have seen my superannuation take a flogging.
But with other interests keeping me busy enough I can honestly say I do not miss aviation and will just have to scale back some bucket list items to fit a more modest budget.
Re sailing: if someone is approaching 65 and has never sailed they may have left it too late for that particular activity. Especially if that hip replacement was not a good job! Besides which it is an expensive hobby unless you build or buy a small boat. But learning to sail a dinghy would be a great idea for someone still reasonably fit.
There are other pursuits - restore an old motor bike, build a new shed, ruin a good walk with golf, grow grapes, distill your own whisky, learn a language (Swahili comes easy when you drink good home brew)... the possibilities are endless.
What any pilot approaching the age of 65 must now face is the probability that their flying days are over. Go gracefully. Don't bore your friends with tales of your past exploits - no one except you really gives a sh!t.
Join Date: Feb 2019
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C’mon guys you’re behaving like entitled prats while our Virgin colleagues are looking down the barrel of an airline collapse with the consequent uncertainty over their careers.
Some of us were even involved in the Ansett debacle prior to joining QANTAS. Remember what that felt like then have some compassion for those doing it a lot tougher than we are.
Whatever happens will be clearer once this health crisis is over. Worry about it then. Discuss it then. If you must have a bleat then do it on Qrewroom where everyone knows who you are and others in our industry less fortunate than us in the present circumstances don’t have to watch you squabbling like a bunch of bogans fighting over a toilet roll.
Mods, could you shut this nonsense down please?
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Fark me, I don’t need to stir you Qantas mob up at all, you do it to yourselves!
I'm going to make some popcorn, this is getting good
I'm going to make some popcorn, this is getting good
Join Date: May 2000
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c173 ....wtf?
KRUSTY, your post in itself is showing an ugly side of self preservation. In these 'unprecedented' times, how about as pilots we look at thing a little differently?
Why don't those 55+ year old senior captains give up the 40ft retirement yacht and retire a couple of years early with plenty in property, super etc?
Those at the bottom of the seniority lists are the ones that will suffer the most in this crisis. Most have young families, fresh mortgages and started flying at a young age with little/no other skills.
I'm sure, for example, of the roughly 400 pilots at the bottom of the QF list (no, not all cadets), most of them left high seniority positions at domestic/regional carriers, some within the group...no one could have predicted this when they made the move to the 'safest job' in Australia. Their old positions have already been filled and there is not likely to be any work in aviation in the next 3-5 years.
Maybe it's time for the top of the list to make some sacrifices for the bottom, instead of topping up their 7 figure defined benefit super.
I'm a firm beliver that seniority is the best/worst system, but we're all on the same team, let's not throw the bottom half under the bus.
Why don't those 55+ year old senior captains give up the 40ft retirement yacht and retire a couple of years early with plenty in property, super etc?
Those at the bottom of the seniority lists are the ones that will suffer the most in this crisis. Most have young families, fresh mortgages and started flying at a young age with little/no other skills.
I'm sure, for example, of the roughly 400 pilots at the bottom of the QF list (no, not all cadets), most of them left high seniority positions at domestic/regional carriers, some within the group...no one could have predicted this when they made the move to the 'safest job' in Australia. Their old positions have already been filled and there is not likely to be any work in aviation in the next 3-5 years.
Maybe it's time for the top of the list to make some sacrifices for the bottom, instead of topping up their 7 figure defined benefit super.
I'm a firm beliver that seniority is the best/worst system, but we're all on the same team, let's not throw the bottom half under the bus.
Where do you start when we have trolls like this posting?
What BS re: near 55 yo senior captains leading any such lifestyles?
Guess you are one of the millenial / gen y crowd, who have never faced a hardship in your short meaningless life, and now want experienced crew who still have years to offer to be sacrificing their hard earned $$$? Your mortgage is no more important than one of theirs.
Join Date: Dec 1999
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Well to go off on a limb, I’m 45 as my profile suggests been aiming for a 50year retirement but the wife is pushing for 58 so I’m guessing with back and forth sparring it should be close to 55. I am definitely going to go at 55, I don’t have much money but if the house is paid off ffs we don’t buy any overpriced crap or posh ****, we will be fine. But I also don’t support throwing crap on the pilots that are forced to work until they are ancient, that’s their choice, not mine,