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Government Loan to Virgin Australia

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Government Loan to Virgin Australia

Old 26th Apr 2020, 07:32
  #1121 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
George, I have made it quite clear that my animus with Qantas is economic. Foreign investment is critical to Australia. Every study of inbound foreign investment behaviour demonstrates that direct international flights to potential investment locations is a critical factor in deciding where the investment is made.

‘’I know for a fact that the Qantas practice of “hubbing most international flights out of Sydney during the 1970’sand 1980’s at least skewed foreign investment, principally in banking and IT disproportionately to NSW. It was deliberate and it cost QLD,VIC,SA a fortune in lost investment. The bias towards Sydney is NOT the behaviour of a business that claims to be a national airline, especially at the time it was taxpayer owned.

As for Qantas staff and operations, I have most always been delighted by their professionalism and training...most of the time. I wish all of them well. I probably did YMEL,YSYD,LHR at least six times during the 70’s and 80’s since I had British family to visit. The QF staff were awesome, not so being dragged to Sydney after 20 + hours from LHR, and having to wait for three+ hours while the aircraft was cleaned and refurbished before boarding for the flight to Melbourne. What QF was effectively doing was ensuring Brisbane, Melbourne and Adelaide were four hours further from New York and London than Sydney.

I am also not a fan of the previous managements failed attempt to steal, sorry, take over, the airline as well as its horrible treatment of its staff, particularly its engineers.

And you know what? Left to its own devices Qantas will do it again and strangle economic development outside NSW. THAT is why Brisbane Melbourne and Sydney state governments are prepared to fight to get Virgin, not the airline jobs..

‘’To put it another way, Qantas is not acting in the nations best interests, therefore it should not be accorded the status of a national airline and the associated political clout.

‘’Do I make myself clear?
Yes you have. And its even more disturbing.
Tell you what , take your corner shop economics and park them for the duration.
Your imaginary world is not coming back.
One of the only upsides to this catastrophe is that governments worldwide will be re-evaluating the whole concept of mindless privatisation and globalisation and will HAVE TO work out how to restore the industry to a sustainable long term future.
The last 30 years will come to be seen as an aberration.
No more cheap flights to Croatia for you.
Sorry.
George Glass is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2020, 08:05
  #1122 (permalink)  
 
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having to wait for three+ hours while the aircraft was cleaned and refurbished before boarding for the flight to Melbourne
Facts, Sunfish, facts! Back in the day when the QF2 operated via Sydney to Melbourne, the planned transit time was 100 minutes: STA was 0620LT while STD to MEL was 0800LT. Basic errors do little for whatever credibility you have.
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 08:29
  #1123 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: East Coast
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The journalist from the West, Australia's aviation expert, is under challenge from the village lunatic hijacking this thread. If you have an agenda to push, have a bit of respect for Virgin staff, and start another thread about Melbourne vs Sydney. Don't use their unfortunate situation to gain traction for your agenda.

Hopefully there is a new owner who keeps Virgin moving the way it was. I have been through the AN debacle, and seriously feel for all you employees and the uncertainty that comes with it. Along with everybody else in the industry who is stood down.
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 09:05
  #1124 (permalink)  
 
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And actually if my childhood memory is correct, I remember flying Singapore to Sydney VIA Melbourne. We got off in Melbourne while they cleaned it, then got back on the same 747 and flew to Sydney, and cleared customs in Sydney.

So you’re full of shit old man
morno is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2020, 12:35
  #1125 (permalink)  
 
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I’m sorry, when did this become a thread on Hubs?
I know like all threads it became a slanging match on page 1, that hasn’t changed.
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 13:37
  #1126 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by morno View Post
And actually if my childhood memory is correct, I remember flying Singapore to Sydney VIA Melbourne. We got off in Melbourne while they cleaned it, then got back on the same 747 and flew to Sydney, and cleared customs in Sydney.

So you’re full of shit old man
Quite correct. Remember doing SIN-MEL-SYD as a brand new SO. Horrible for fatigue too, with a red eye sector from SIN landing in MEL about 0430 then departing to SYD at 0600ish.
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 04:05
  #1127 (permalink)  
 
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I read through this thread with shame. I've spent my 35+ years of my working career overseas as a proud Aussie. Something in our national character has changed for the worse during my absence,

The low level comments and vitriol on this thread have dismayed me. I've always wondered why the rest of the world has treated us with contempt, now I finally understand why.

I wonder whether its the safety of anonymity which encourages this behavior, either way its unedifying to see professional pilots squabble like this. And it isn't helping the cause of Aussie pilots who will be seeking work overseas if their future managers/employers read these threads.


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Old 29th Apr 2020, 07:44
  #1128 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lucille View Post
I read through this thread with shame. I've spent my 35+ years of my working career overseas as a proud Aussie. Something in our national character has changed for the worse during my absence,

The low level comments and vitriol on this thread have dismayed me. I've always wondered why the rest of the world has treated us with contempt, now I finally understand why.

I wonder whether its the safety of anonymity which encourages this behavior, either way its unedifying to see professional pilots squabble like this. And it isn't helping the cause of Aussie pilots who will be seeking work overseas if their future managers/employers read these threads.
LOL, Aussie pilots have a reputation as Austro-nauts and back stabbers. Are you just realizing this?
DUXNUTZ is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2020, 08:56
  #1129 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Oz
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.[/QUOTE]The low level comments and vitriol on this thread have dismayed me. I've always wondered why the rest of the world has treated us with contempt, now I finally understand why.[QUOTE]

Thank you for taking the time, and effort to enlighten us with your worldly views, I shall remember that sage advice when I consider posting comments on the region where I work....perhaps your low level comments could do the same?

Square Bear is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2020, 10:07
  #1130 (permalink)  
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As the starter of this thread I am dismayed at how, like many post on PPRuNe it goes off thread. Folks from 1989 and 2001 are still upset for good reasons and contemporary contributors faced with the challenges of the last decade in the Australian industry are also peeved.
This thread is about Virgin in 2020 and its fate and while history cannot be ignored the economic times are different to years ago.. Tomorrow Deloitte will deliver its first statement to creditors on VAH.
Let us wait until then to see what it says and please keep on the thread and not be diverted by the circumstances for many of unpleasant past experiences in Australia's last 30 years of aviation history.
Keep calm and rational folks just like we expect on the flight deck.
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 10:28
  #1131 (permalink)  
 
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And the first services that will start post pandemic will be XXX - SYD.

This is some of what is at stake and why QF is not a national carrier. It is a Sydney carrier. It is critical to Australia’s recovery from the pandemic that QF not be allowed to funnel International pax via Sydney.

There is any amount of literature on the impact of direct international flights on local economic growth. This is a real issue. Arguably, pre covid, Melbourne and Brisbane had finally got enough direct flights from foreign carriers to avoid the Sydney squeeze. However post covid, the Government needs to ensure that this bias towards Sydney by QF is not resurgent.

Not long ago, it was thought thatplanes would flatten the world, spreading us out even more than the rise of railroads and cars did in previous eras. But the reality has been much the reverse. Airplanes, airports, and air travel have contributed to our geographic spikiness, fueling the growing concentration of population and economic activity in a small number of large, productive, and well-connected superstar cities.

That’s one of the key findings of a recent study on the effects of global airports and air connectivity on economic and urban development. The study, by economists at Harvard University’s Kennedy School of Government and the University of Zurich, examines air travel’s role in the economic performance of more than 819 cities and metro areas in 200 different countries. Using detailed data from the International Civil Aviation Organization, it looks specifically at how direct flights facilitate business links and investments between pairs of cities, with data on over half a million businesses and more than 30,000 major business events around the world.
https://www.citylab.com/equity/2017/...rtunes/544478/


https://www.skyharbor.com/docs/defau...rsn=6a7a9a88_4


[QUOTE]Air connectivity is an effective engine for increasing both competitiveness and economic growth. That is particularly crucial in Europe, which relies on aviation to provide the international transport links that make Europe a global hub of social and economic connectivity, and to compete on the world stage. [/QUOTE]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...46043018300030


http://www.dlgrma.qld.gov.au/resourc...d-aviation.pdf
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 11:20
  #1132 (permalink)  
 
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Keep calm and rational folks just like we expect on the flight deck.
Then right on cue comes this which is none of the above:

and the first services that will start post pandemic will be XXX - SYD.

This is some of what is at stake and why QF is not a national carrier. It is a Sydney carrier. It is critical to Australia’s recovery from the pandemic that QF not be allowed to funnel International pax via Sydney.
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 11:26
  #1133 (permalink)  
 
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The flight deck doesn’t get to make investment decisions thank goodness. The question of a loan to Virgin is, fortunately or unfortunately an economic argument. Furthermore there are competing schools of economic thought.
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 11:41
  #1134 (permalink)  
 
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So you think QF should just start flying from everywhere, regardless of demand or feasibility, just to keep you happy, even though you will never fly with QF?
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 12:05
  #1135 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lookleft View Post
Then right on cue comes this which is none of the above:
To be fair though; he's never worked on a flight deck in his life.
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 12:06
  #1136 (permalink)  
 
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Qantas will do exactly that for good reason. It won’t be able to fill a widebody initially out of Melbourne or Brisbane to wherever. It will be able to hub out of Sydney and possibly make it economical to fly one.

Of course the other hub carriers will do ex
exactly the same via their hubs. Even if they only half fill a widebody out of Melbourne to XXX, with the connecting passengers onto the next service the load may be full and the average load factor increases.

Of course, if Melbourne was closer than Sydney to the states or Asia, they’d hub there. However, as you know. It’s not.

Also let’s not forget Qantas ordered the 747-400ERs specifically to fly nonstop LA-MEL. It was the only carrier at the time to do so.

Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
And the first services that will start post pandemic will be XXX - SYD.
Blueskymine is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2020, 12:37
  #1137 (permalink)  
 
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Wherever Qantas or any other International Airline decides to focus on as a port of entry into Australia will most likely depend on which state government stumps up the most cash in a post COVID world. Which state government will subside the most testing, quarantining etc.

Forget about $200mil odd to get Virgin to relocate to whatever state, the real money will be in which state puts up the most cash to deal with all the COVID restrictions on eventual inbound foreign traffic.
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 21:51
  #1138 (permalink)  
 
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Why is international flying even a thought at the moment?! No one will come here from foreign countries until there is a vaccine or COVID-19 is eradicated. No one will spend 14 days cooped up in a hotel (if they do, who pays for this?) which would be half of their holiday just to go back to country of origin to do it again. International air travel is dead for the foreseeable future, trans-con is the best we can hope for.
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 01:18
  #1139 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
Why is international flying even a thought at the moment?! No one will come here from foreign countries until there is a vaccine or COVID-19 is eradicated. No one will spend 14 days cooped up in a hotel (if they do, who pays for this?) which would be half of their holiday just to go back to country of origin to do it again. International air travel is dead for the foreseeable future, trans-con is the best we can hope for.

Trans Tasman is the best we can hope for?
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 02:02
  #1140 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
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Trans Tasman is the best we can hope for?
Probably for the next few months at least and possibly the end of the year.
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