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Rubber chicken, Capt Overunder et al.
You guys really are the bee's knees... Firstly, go away and sit down with the a copy of the rules - ie the EBA in one hand and CAO48 in the other - and read them until you understand them. Now I know you busy pilot types don't have six months to spare ('cos it appears that's how long it takes you read that many words in a row and come away with some comprehension!) but please try.
When you feel you do understand it then please make let it be known that you are ready to go in to HO and give it a go. Guess what.... you won't be the first. There have been at least three "I can do it better" guys come in spend a day working on pairings with the rostering dept. Without exception, they all threw their hands in the air saying " Too hard!", "Stupid system anyway!" and my favourite "Oh, I've just forgetten I have an urgent appointment that I have to rush off to" - which translated means "Oh yeah guys - I see what you mean"
I speak to heaps of guys about this and unfortunately quite a number ex ansett and the Qf group have no idea about the rules they operate under actually are - particularly the three day tour of duty rule.
As stated before, if you have an idea DJ management are definately willing to listen - you just need to come up with something that works not this neverending mantra of "I'm a pilot I must be getting screwed"
You guys really are the bee's knees... Firstly, go away and sit down with the a copy of the rules - ie the EBA in one hand and CAO48 in the other - and read them until you understand them. Now I know you busy pilot types don't have six months to spare ('cos it appears that's how long it takes you read that many words in a row and come away with some comprehension!) but please try.
When you feel you do understand it then please make let it be known that you are ready to go in to HO and give it a go. Guess what.... you won't be the first. There have been at least three "I can do it better" guys come in spend a day working on pairings with the rostering dept. Without exception, they all threw their hands in the air saying " Too hard!", "Stupid system anyway!" and my favourite "Oh, I've just forgetten I have an urgent appointment that I have to rush off to" - which translated means "Oh yeah guys - I see what you mean"
I speak to heaps of guys about this and unfortunately quite a number ex ansett and the Qf group have no idea about the rules they operate under actually are - particularly the three day tour of duty rule.
As stated before, if you have an idea DJ management are definately willing to listen - you just need to come up with something that works not this neverending mantra of "I'm a pilot I must be getting screwed"
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Hey Theo Racle
You would find it a little easier to roster and find the troops happier when the following questions are answered
1. when will there be new bases
2. You were promised a new rostering system 10 months ago where is it.
3. when will you get more help and less transfers of experienced personell across the room or to other departments.
Good luck mate but instead of trying to blame the whole thing on pilots, maybe you need to learn that sometimes a workman can blame his tools and ask for new ones. Tis easier to cut down a forrest with a chainsaw rather than a teaspoon, even if the teaspoon is more comfortable.
You would find it a little easier to roster and find the troops happier when the following questions are answered
1. when will there be new bases
2. You were promised a new rostering system 10 months ago where is it.
3. when will you get more help and less transfers of experienced personell across the room or to other departments.
Good luck mate but instead of trying to blame the whole thing on pilots, maybe you need to learn that sometimes a workman can blame his tools and ask for new ones. Tis easier to cut down a forrest with a chainsaw rather than a teaspoon, even if the teaspoon is more comfortable.
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Theo,
you sound like a man from rostering. I do believe that as I said before 2 people have been trying to get in and help one with 20 years of rostering experience but after 2 years, yes 2 years still are being kept out. We (Pilots) trust these 2 and if they came out and said well boys it can't be done under CAO 48 we would be happy to look at something else but while they are not given the opportunity to at least try, thats when we smell a really really big rat. What have you got to loose. If you are so sure they will fail, well they look like fools and you look like the hero.
I think they have been kept out because they can make it work and may make other look like fools. That is all we have been asking for the past 2 years. Yes that NZ program is not worth the floppy disk it came on but when we started up it was ok for the number of pilots we had at the time. New software has been purchased but won't be running until march 2003. What we are saying is that the proplem may lie with the way the blocks are produced in the first place and not with CAO 48. I spent many years working under both and I know which one I prefer.
you sound like a man from rostering. I do believe that as I said before 2 people have been trying to get in and help one with 20 years of rostering experience but after 2 years, yes 2 years still are being kept out. We (Pilots) trust these 2 and if they came out and said well boys it can't be done under CAO 48 we would be happy to look at something else but while they are not given the opportunity to at least try, thats when we smell a really really big rat. What have you got to loose. If you are so sure they will fail, well they look like fools and you look like the hero.
I think they have been kept out because they can make it work and may make other look like fools. That is all we have been asking for the past 2 years. Yes that NZ program is not worth the floppy disk it came on but when we started up it was ok for the number of pilots we had at the time. New software has been purchased but won't be running until march 2003. What we are saying is that the proplem may lie with the way the blocks are produced in the first place and not with CAO 48. I spent many years working under both and I know which one I prefer.
Bottums Up
Rubber Chook,
That
seems to me to indicate that you speak for all the VB pilots. Is this so?
Why only trust these 2? Why not trust the VB schedulers that are telling you it can't be done?
ps. Don't work with VB so don't know the nuts and bolts about the issue, but agree with Spruce's logic, why would the Co do it the hard and unproductive way?
That
We (Pilots) trust these 2 and if they came out and said well boys it can't be done under CAO 48 we would be happy to look at something else ....
Why only trust these 2? Why not trust the VB schedulers that are telling you it can't be done?
ps. Don't work with VB so don't know the nuts and bolts about the issue, but agree with Spruce's logic, why would the Co do it the hard and unproductive way?
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It's not the company telling us that it won't work it is rostering telling to company who intern tell us. The compnay believe what they are told by the man in charge of rostering. Why not trust them, well lets see.
You have 2 people who have years and years of experience telling us that it can be done. The current head of rostering was a radio operator not so long ago with a small SAAB airline. If he admits that the problem is with him then he does himself out of a job. All we are asking for is the chance to be proven wrong. If we are wrong then no harm done. we all look like fools and then we sit around and talk about alternatives. These people have said they will go in, in their own time and run a parallel roster using their methods. if it is better great. if not, like I said all that happened is thatthey have given up a perfectly good day off for nothing and walk away and go to the pub for a beer. No harm either way. Why not listen and take advice from people who did this for a living for 20 years. At the end of the day we all want the same thing. Efficient rosters. We win and they win. But before we go and sign our lives away lets at least try and make work what we have now. If it doesn't move to plan 'B'.
Why is this so difficult to understand.
You have 2 people who have years and years of experience telling us that it can be done. The current head of rostering was a radio operator not so long ago with a small SAAB airline. If he admits that the problem is with him then he does himself out of a job. All we are asking for is the chance to be proven wrong. If we are wrong then no harm done. we all look like fools and then we sit around and talk about alternatives. These people have said they will go in, in their own time and run a parallel roster using their methods. if it is better great. if not, like I said all that happened is thatthey have given up a perfectly good day off for nothing and walk away and go to the pub for a beer. No harm either way. Why not listen and take advice from people who did this for a living for 20 years. At the end of the day we all want the same thing. Efficient rosters. We win and they win. But before we go and sign our lives away lets at least try and make work what we have now. If it doesn't move to plan 'B'.
Why is this so difficult to understand.
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Wake up soon!
Firstly "Go Theo!"
Secondly, Rubbie it is obviously a long time since you've been through the HQ of DJ and found out who is who and what job they currently do! I would strongly suggest that you pop your head in some time, even better why dont you get your 2 "Hot Shots" together and go through the normal process of speaking with your line manager or even your Cheif pilot and put your case forward to them. Try to approach it with a clear head as it is becoming very clear to alot of viewers that you are a bit short of that six pack!
I know your response will be some what heated and charged by emotion but............[edited by "24"]
Good Luck.....
Hell's bells, I think we could all do with a stiff drink!
Secondly, Rubbie it is obviously a long time since you've been through the HQ of DJ and found out who is who and what job they currently do! I would strongly suggest that you pop your head in some time, even better why dont you get your 2 "Hot Shots" together and go through the normal process of speaking with your line manager or even your Cheif pilot and put your case forward to them. Try to approach it with a clear head as it is becoming very clear to alot of viewers that you are a bit short of that six pack!
I know your response will be some what heated and charged by emotion but............[edited by "24"]
Good Luck.....
Hell's bells, I think we could all do with a stiff drink!
Last edited by 24; 21st Aug 2002 at 10:09.
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In the good old days the pilots at AN/EW/TN etc did build the rosters and presented them to the company. The pilots could hardly whinge they were no good as they built them.
Building good blocks is a bit of an art and a sound knowledge of all the rules is paramount, as Theo says. If the company will give you the pairings then you have a chance to demonstrate the skill of the 2 who reckon they can do better. There is some serious rostering talent within the VB pilot group including an ex MSC. If he is happy with the rosters then I would guess they are ok?
Building good blocks is a bit of an art and a sound knowledge of all the rules is paramount, as Theo says. If the company will give you the pairings then you have a chance to demonstrate the skill of the 2 who reckon they can do better. There is some serious rostering talent within the VB pilot group including an ex MSC. If he is happy with the rosters then I would guess they are ok?
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Yawn!!!
The two hot shots as you call them have been throught all the correct channels including that of the flight ops manager. All of whom have promised access the rostering and the chance to show alternate methods to those who are currently rostering or who were rostering at the time. 2 years later, still waiting. As for having a look in VB HQ I spend quite a lot of time in there and am more then aware of all the recent and not so recent changes that have gone on in various departments, not just rostering. I have no doubt that rostering would have to be one of the hardest areas to work in. You will never make everyone happy. We will have the new rostering program up and running soon. Let wait and see how it goes before rushing out to sign for a dispensation. The company has outgrown of NZ program and the rostering staff are flat out just trying to keep it running let alone make it run efficiently.
What we are talking about goes back 2 years when our NZ program was handling thing ok and the problem was in the block building. This is not a new issue. It has been fought out for 2 years to have thing changed. The suggestion was made to have these '2 hot shots' go in and run a parallel roster in their own time to prove that the problem lay in the block building and not CAO48. This had the approval of the Chief Pilot but has still not occurred.
Do I have to draw you a picture? It really isn't that difficult to grasp the concept.
The two hot shots as you call them have been throught all the correct channels including that of the flight ops manager. All of whom have promised access the rostering and the chance to show alternate methods to those who are currently rostering or who were rostering at the time. 2 years later, still waiting. As for having a look in VB HQ I spend quite a lot of time in there and am more then aware of all the recent and not so recent changes that have gone on in various departments, not just rostering. I have no doubt that rostering would have to be one of the hardest areas to work in. You will never make everyone happy. We will have the new rostering program up and running soon. Let wait and see how it goes before rushing out to sign for a dispensation. The company has outgrown of NZ program and the rostering staff are flat out just trying to keep it running let alone make it run efficiently.
What we are talking about goes back 2 years when our NZ program was handling thing ok and the problem was in the block building. This is not a new issue. It has been fought out for 2 years to have thing changed. The suggestion was made to have these '2 hot shots' go in and run a parallel roster in their own time to prove that the problem lay in the block building and not CAO48. This had the approval of the Chief Pilot but has still not occurred.
Do I have to draw you a picture? It really isn't that difficult to grasp the concept.
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Part of the problem Chook, lays in the fact that the commercial dept., where the scedules are programmed each month, don't pass the final pairings on to rostering until as late as the 20th of the month. Given the very short space of time then available to build a roster for a constantly growing group of pilots makes the task of finding the best combination of pairings for the roster a very difficult task. The problem is exaserbated by the fact that the pairings do not remain the same from one one month to the next. So what was put together in May is useless in June and to analyse it as such is a waste of time. I can't vouch for the lack of access to the pairings in any given month but I am fairly sure they are not confidential in nature. I could walk in there and get a copy of them so I would assume your guru's could as well. My question remains unaswered. Why would anyone in the flight ops area tolerate such a blatent waste of money if a better solution was attainable. I do know they look at the pairings and all the associated whinging that accompanies them each month. It is short sighted and ignorant to believe that VB are willing to continue wasting money on inefficient crewing practices simply to protect a job here or there. They could save a ton more money by flying the same monthly roster with, for example, five less crews. Don't forget either, CAO48 will disappear in the not so distant future and will cease to be relevent from a regulatory standpoint. The change will occur whether we vote for it or not. Why not get proactive and work on that change now.
Overunder, I am not in the "whole" know either and I can't see why the ideas expressed by those with so much experience may not have been taken aboard. I am sure the truth in the matter lays somewhere other than the stories filtering through the crew room. There is certaintly no lack of opportunity to raise these issues in a forum every fortnight. Why not get in there and press the case. I haven't heard anyone speak up yet and put a credible argument forward. All these so called verbal agreements seem to happen when nobody is looking or listening.
Overunder, I am not in the "whole" know either and I can't see why the ideas expressed by those with so much experience may not have been taken aboard. I am sure the truth in the matter lays somewhere other than the stories filtering through the crew room. There is certaintly no lack of opportunity to raise these issues in a forum every fortnight. Why not get in there and press the case. I haven't heard anyone speak up yet and put a credible argument forward. All these so called verbal agreements seem to happen when nobody is looking or listening.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
If what you say is correct, Spruce it sounds as though your Commercial Dep't needs a rocket, or the block building and bidding should be held off until nearer the end of the month.
It would seem that VB are having to carry extra crew, to cover the shortfall between Scheduling being advised of the ACTUAL pairings for the forthcoming month, and their block building.
BTW, Sprucie invest in a spellchecker!
It would seem that VB are having to carry extra crew, to cover the shortfall between Scheduling being advised of the ACTUAL pairings for the forthcoming month, and their block building.
BTW, Sprucie invest in a spellchecker!
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As usual, commercial screwing up the operation. When will they ever learn
After being through all that RC with no result, time to give up, no one in authority is interested by the sounds.
However, if you can get DJ to employ a red hot rootin' tootin' rostering man then find out where the famous "Clam" of ANSW is these days. He'll want some incentive though. Offer him F/A scheduling and he'll work for zip!
If you can't get him, poach Dale from QF, he'll liven the place up
After being through all that RC with no result, time to give up, no one in authority is interested by the sounds.
However, if you can get DJ to employ a red hot rootin' tootin' rostering man then find out where the famous "Clam" of ANSW is these days. He'll want some incentive though. Offer him F/A scheduling and he'll work for zip!
If you can't get him, poach Dale from QF, he'll liven the place up
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Dale from QF...as in Dale from ANSW, eons ago??
Now THOSE guys were Masters of the Art of Rostering. And all without the fancy wiz-bang confusers!!
Talk about flexibility of operations.
As a matter of fact, anyone who can remember the schedulers of pre-computer days (and the Woolies checkout operators, before bar codes were introduced) will recall a faster, more efficient, less costly operation than has been forced upon us.
How many F/O's today know HOW to calculate a TOD at (say) 37,000'?
Betcha at LEAST 70% rely on the FMC.
Most will blindly follow the PFM figure - and perhaps scheduling could also do with a little knowledge of "tweeking", when the parameters are obscure.
Now THOSE guys were Masters of the Art of Rostering. And all without the fancy wiz-bang confusers!!
Talk about flexibility of operations.
As a matter of fact, anyone who can remember the schedulers of pre-computer days (and the Woolies checkout operators, before bar codes were introduced) will recall a faster, more efficient, less costly operation than has been forced upon us.
How many F/O's today know HOW to calculate a TOD at (say) 37,000'?
Betcha at LEAST 70% rely on the FMC.
Most will blindly follow the PFM figure - and perhaps scheduling could also do with a little knowledge of "tweeking", when the parameters are obscure.
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We don't bid for our rosters Kap and they have to be out by the 24th of the month. I don't think many people would be happy if they came out later as they already complain how late the 24th is. See, you just can't please some people any of the time. 
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Yes Kap, the one and the same Dale.
These days, with all the "advances" made with computers the pilots are worse off than they were 20 years ago. In DJ, with commercial delivering the flying so late you haven't got much of a chance to avoid chaos.
Still, the whole game has deteriorated from nearly every perspective so crook rostering is par for the course.
Getting paid in the modern age of aviation has become a significant perk!
These days, with all the "advances" made with computers the pilots are worse off than they were 20 years ago. In DJ, with commercial delivering the flying so late you haven't got much of a chance to avoid chaos.
Still, the whole game has deteriorated from nearly every perspective so crook rostering is par for the course.
Getting paid in the modern age of aviation has become a significant perk!
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Spruce
Are you telling us that commercial finalise their schedules 10 days before they operate them??!! Doesn't allow much time for advance selling of tickets does it...
"Yes we will sell you a ticket for next Thursday. It will leave sometime between 9 and 10. We haven't finalised it yet."
"Yes we will sell you a ticket for next Thursday. It will leave sometime between 9 and 10. We haven't finalised it yet."
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I have no idea what the actual process is Cally. I have been sitting in rostering when a list of pairings was handed down on or about the 10th of a month and rosters were started based on this but the heads that be made it clear they were not "signed off" on just yet so changes could take place. And indeed they did then and do now right up to as late as the 20th of the month. I guess with new aircraft arriving which have to be slotted in the system and minor schedule changes designed to maximise aircraft utilisation things just end up in a pile towards the end of the month. Belive me the problem has been addressed between the two departments and supposedly the line of communication has started to improve but I am not sure how much better it is yet. I know absolutely nothing about how all this fits in with advance ticket sales. Just some more of that good old PFM.
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Capt OverUnder, AlbertRoss and Rubber Chicken you should not believe everything your fellow pilot fraternity states.
Approximately 8 months ago, two so called gurus of rostering came forward from your ranks (VB Tech Crew) to give advise and show VB rostering how it is done. Unfortunately, your 2 representatives lasted only approximately half a day as they realised they were well out of their league. (True fact, sorry it hurts)
To the guys and girls of VB rostering I take my hat off to you, as I know it is not an easy job to do. The all too common occurrence of publishing schedules with two weeks notice (instead of the required 4 weeks) only provides rostering staff with an inadequate two weeks to complete rosters. Therefore it is extremely difficult to accommodate all crew roster requests and allocation of training etc. Unfortunately, crew constantly complain and whine as they only appear to consider their own personal needs. Rostering staff NEVER receive praise or thanks for approving roster requests. The only time crewmembers contact rostering staff is to unleash invective and demand reasons as to why their requests weren’t met. Once again we are talking about the small minds of certain people!!
However, I was recently fortunate to obtain a copy of the so-called Black Letter that everybody is referring to. There may be a slight percentage of truth to the letter, but the rest of it is CRAP. Once again we see the pilot fraternity crying foul and complaining about the work conditions. We all knew what the conditions were before we were employed either as aircrew or ground crew etc. Nobody forced you to sign the EBA at the start of your employment with VB. If you are so unhappy, why don’t you pack your bags and crawl back under the rock from where you came. Have you ever sat down and thought about the other departments within VB maybe getting screwed as well? Like I said before we all knew of the conditions before we started with VB.
What more can I say, we are talking about whining Tech Crew. Grow up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CRAP NEVER
Approximately 8 months ago, two so called gurus of rostering came forward from your ranks (VB Tech Crew) to give advise and show VB rostering how it is done. Unfortunately, your 2 representatives lasted only approximately half a day as they realised they were well out of their league. (True fact, sorry it hurts)
To the guys and girls of VB rostering I take my hat off to you, as I know it is not an easy job to do. The all too common occurrence of publishing schedules with two weeks notice (instead of the required 4 weeks) only provides rostering staff with an inadequate two weeks to complete rosters. Therefore it is extremely difficult to accommodate all crew roster requests and allocation of training etc. Unfortunately, crew constantly complain and whine as they only appear to consider their own personal needs. Rostering staff NEVER receive praise or thanks for approving roster requests. The only time crewmembers contact rostering staff is to unleash invective and demand reasons as to why their requests weren’t met. Once again we are talking about the small minds of certain people!!
However, I was recently fortunate to obtain a copy of the so-called Black Letter that everybody is referring to. There may be a slight percentage of truth to the letter, but the rest of it is CRAP. Once again we see the pilot fraternity crying foul and complaining about the work conditions. We all knew what the conditions were before we were employed either as aircrew or ground crew etc. Nobody forced you to sign the EBA at the start of your employment with VB. If you are so unhappy, why don’t you pack your bags and crawl back under the rock from where you came. Have you ever sat down and thought about the other departments within VB maybe getting screwed as well? Like I said before we all knew of the conditions before we started with VB.
What more can I say, we are talking about whining Tech Crew. Grow up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CRAP NEVER
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Not another whinger at VB
"Have you ever sat down and thought about the other departments within VB maybe getting screwed as well?"
Oh Lord!
Ustar, you are not refering to the fact that you too may be one of these poor under paid employees at VB are you?
It seems that alot of troops at VB are beging to wish for a brighter star, is it not all that you thought it would be or as your advertising shows just another circus?
Alot could be said for the number of you who pledged their allegiance to the Virgin banner, and your constant complaining between each other. Sounds like AN just got another name!
You should all be greatful for being given a job and an oppertunity! Why not work together and create an even better empire than the one you came from or is it true, the majority at VB have never worked in aviation before?
If so heaven help the Aussie punter who places thier life in your hands!
Oh Lord!
Ustar, you are not refering to the fact that you too may be one of these poor under paid employees at VB are you?
It seems that alot of troops at VB are beging to wish for a brighter star, is it not all that you thought it would be or as your advertising shows just another circus?
Alot could be said for the number of you who pledged their allegiance to the Virgin banner, and your constant complaining between each other. Sounds like AN just got another name!
You should all be greatful for being given a job and an oppertunity! Why not work together and create an even better empire than the one you came from or is it true, the majority at VB have never worked in aviation before?
If so heaven help the Aussie punter who places thier life in your hands!
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More whinging at VB
Yawn.....
I think someone got it right along the way?!
Alot needs to be said for your Scheduling Department! It would be very difficult for anyone to complete a roster with less than 2 weeks before publication date! Correct me if I am wrong but 8 months ago didn't DJ only operate a schedule with about 10 aircraft? Now how many? How many rostering staff were there 8 months ago and how many pilots did they have on the books to put into a roster? If the growth of the aircraft is anything to go by and the same growth obviously has to be matched by the pilots, so how many rostering staff are there now?.....Evidently....now you guys have 24 aircraft to play with, and around 300+ pilots to crew them but the rostering staff have only 3 on the team an increase of 1! So much for a fair go! If these 2 Hot Shots couldn't work out a better way to do things 8 months ago, how the hell are they gonna have a better idea now?!
let you drips in on an idea.....get your heads around committing to a schedule and committ to that schedule for a period of 3 months! Obvious constraints are assosiated with this but forward planning would outway the problems that you are being faced with. You cant come back Spruce with crap about aircraft deliveries, someone there must be signing the leases on these babies! Nor can you come back with crap about maintenance issues regarding major checks, these too are also planned! Theo, Ustar you blokes seem like bright sparks, well you claim to be anyway, surely you guys can suggest how many crew you need to make it work! I could go on but thats what you guys are getting paid to do there!
Hell, doesn't anybody talk to one another at Virgin Blue?
The art of speaking negatively about other departments within your own organisation can be seen as unprofessional boys! What are you doing there?
I will be waiting for your emotional charged replies!
I think someone got it right along the way?!
Alot needs to be said for your Scheduling Department! It would be very difficult for anyone to complete a roster with less than 2 weeks before publication date! Correct me if I am wrong but 8 months ago didn't DJ only operate a schedule with about 10 aircraft? Now how many? How many rostering staff were there 8 months ago and how many pilots did they have on the books to put into a roster? If the growth of the aircraft is anything to go by and the same growth obviously has to be matched by the pilots, so how many rostering staff are there now?.....Evidently....now you guys have 24 aircraft to play with, and around 300+ pilots to crew them but the rostering staff have only 3 on the team an increase of 1! So much for a fair go! If these 2 Hot Shots couldn't work out a better way to do things 8 months ago, how the hell are they gonna have a better idea now?!
let you drips in on an idea.....get your heads around committing to a schedule and committ to that schedule for a period of 3 months! Obvious constraints are assosiated with this but forward planning would outway the problems that you are being faced with. You cant come back Spruce with crap about aircraft deliveries, someone there must be signing the leases on these babies! Nor can you come back with crap about maintenance issues regarding major checks, these too are also planned! Theo, Ustar you blokes seem like bright sparks, well you claim to be anyway, surely you guys can suggest how many crew you need to make it work! I could go on but thats what you guys are getting paid to do there!
Hell, doesn't anybody talk to one another at Virgin Blue?
The art of speaking negatively about other departments within your own organisation can be seen as unprofessional boys! What are you doing there?
I will be waiting for your emotional charged replies!