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Buying Water Bombers For Australia?

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Buying Water Bombers For Australia?

Old 16th Jan 2020, 09:21
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Buying Water Bombers For Australia?

There appears to be some debate about Australia buying its own dedicated water bomber aircraft as a result of the current bushfire emergency.What say you?
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 09:28
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
There appears to be some debate about Australia buying its own dedicated water bomber aircraft as a result of the current bushfire emergency.What say you?
by ‘Australia’ do you mean the government? Federal? State? Private Australian companies?

such an exercise organised by the public sector would inevitably a complete ‘shemozzle’

what would the ‘dedicated water bomber aircraft’ do for the other non - burning months of the year? Operate a successful business case overseas and overseen by a government organisation here? Sounds an unlikely theory.

anyone who thinks a couple of big water bombers can control the bushfires seen in this country is also kidding themselves
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 09:41
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Having our own water bombers in Autumn may increase our capability to do more controlled burns.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 10:07
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Let’s see the aircraft will have to be based in a marginal seat, the CEO would have to be transgender, chief pilot would have to be female, family friendly working conditions for all staff, social media team, talent acquisition team, etc!


Should work okay Sunfish!
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 10:59
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The utilisation required of said equipment will see the idea quietly shelved, methinks.

There may be a window for more year round utililisation of existing local equipment on standby for the imminent more frequent hazard reduction work ahead....
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 11:15
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This years bushfires are an unprecedented phenomenon, whilst devasting and an enormous toll socially and on an environmentally, to believe this will be the new norm is as ridiculous as some of the conspiracy theories and reporting about the fires on social media.

The Autum idea is a good one. Controlled burns with an aerial water bombing loitering over head should the situation get out of control.
Bushfires are a year round, World Wide natural occurence. It should be not be beyond the reals of possibility, that a number of Governmemts around the world pool some reasources to have a Aerial Bombing fleet that can be moved to various countries on a seasonal basis to fight these fires.

We will watch CNN in sadness and complete horror in a few months as Wildfires ravage the hills outside Malibu and Beverly Hills, as our favourite TV and Movie stars homes are at risk or are burned to the ground in the annual fire season in America.

The solutions are there, it is not in the interest of the powers that be to implement them.


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Old 16th Jan 2020, 11:21
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I remember the 1994 bushfires that attacked Sydney. My backyard fence burnt in those fires. It was the first year the aerial tanker helicipters came to town. Everyone would remember "Elvis".

I also remember then Premier Bob Carr saying,
"send me the cheque and I will sign it",
in reference to purchasing the choppers for each fire season.
I also remember 2 months later him saying it was an unnecessary expense not justified by the once in a lifetime fire season.

No governmement will ever do anything unless it happens during election season.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 11:30
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In the festival season they could be contracted to dump sparkle on the mardi gras for $500m per annum then in the off season drop water on fires. The pollies will trip over each other to sign the cheque.

Marketing 101 from the Arts Department of a Sydney Uni....

Last edited by illusion; 16th Jan 2020 at 11:43. Reason: ..
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 11:48
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There is a big fleet (I believe 14) of water bombers sitting idle at my home airport (CYQB), and there is talk here of finding some kind of deal with Australia to lease some of them out during our winter here - similar to what is already in place with California.

This would certainly more be cost effective and win-win in terms of utilisation. Fire season here is April to October.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 11:59
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Originally Posted by Machdiamond View Post
There is a big fleet (I believe 14) of water bombers sitting idle at my home airport (CYQB), and there is talk here of finding some kind of deal with Australia to lease some of them out during our winter here - similar to what is already in place with California.

This would certainly more be cost effective and win-win in terms of utilisation. Fire season here is April to October.
That sounds like common sense!!! Can’t see that under this gubment! Having a seasonal fleet would just be toooooooooo perfecto!
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 14:29
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The Autumn idea is a good one. Controlled burns with an aerial water bombing loitering over head should the situation get out of control
The aircraft could set up containment lines using retardant. This would provide currency and training for both flight and ground crews.

One problem is that the RFS/CFA are a volunteer organisation and may only be able to do hazard reduction at weekends. This could mean a need for full time hazard reduction teams.
Would aircrew be full time or volunteer?

Next question, are there any large waterbombers available for sale anywhere?.
Looking at the fleet, it appears that the airframes are converted by the end user.
The first lot of Viking CL-515 are goig to Indonesia in 2025. Long wait!!
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 16:02
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On the topic, FireAviation website had some more info on the other bomber's that are heading to Australia from the US currently. A couple of MD-87's and more DC-10's it seems.

https://fireaviation.com/2020/01/16/...and-a-volcano/
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 16:23
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Let me put some facts on the table here.
Aerial fire bombers have and will always be a State Govt. contractural arrangement. Stop blaming the Federal Govt for your State Govt's inaction and Greens policies!
Over 140 aircrafts are currently here Australia wide with Coulsons having some of the bigger contracts along with the often seen Skycrane/Air-cranes now based in South Australia, Western Australia, Victoria, New South Wales & A.C.T.
There would not be such a bushfire emergency IF:
1) there were not so many F'n arsonists lighting these fires Australia wide (183 arrested already with >200 total sought so far...);
2) The Greens/Labour hadn't locked up the National Parks from grazing, backburns and locked/let firetrails overgrow for the sake of "habitat';
3) Farmers weren't fined by local muppet Local Councils for hazaed reduction on there own land!
... the list goes on but Victoria is a classic case in point, in absolute bureaucratic stupidity and socialist/green idiocricy... EVEN after the 2009 Black Saturday Royal Commission decree that mpre hazard reduction was paramount, they only achieved an average of 10% year on year... only 33% in the last year!
So tell me peeps, what good do you think fleets of fire-bombers from above, are going to do to fix the stupidity of many years worth of huge amounts of un-attended dry undergrowth and follage?
Heads need to roll over this and it comes down to State & Local jurisdictions, NOT as mass media are trying to feed you as Scott Morrison's direct responsibilty, like we were the same as the USA voting system.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 16:51
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Are there not already a lot of Air Tractors in Australia? Would be worthwhile to analyse how we could deploy Air Tractors to complete the same mission of the DC10 or other dedicated bomber fleet, measure the efficacy of both and work it out from there?
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 17:21
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Originally Posted by 601 View Post
One problem is that the RFS/CFA are a volunteer organisation and may only be able to do hazard reduction at weekends. This could mean a need for full time hazard reduction teams.
Would aircrew be full time or volunteer?
Easy fix. Pay the local Fireries to do it during the week.
Some are calling this a National Emergency.
So hazard reduction burns need to be done WHENEVER the conditions are suitable. Not when it suits some volunteers. I would think the "token amount" it would cost to pay some professional Fire Men some overtime to conduct controlled burns would be far cheaper then the few Billion this summer is going to cost.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 20:44
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AT 802 fireboss, MAAFS systems for C 130, Canadair CL 415, All viable options in my opinion. Went through this a few years back when BC was on fire in Canada.
Wondered why our military wasn't utilizing the Herc's with the MAAFS Modules a lot more.
Would it not be good to provide our Military pilots with flying hours doing firefighting work rather than just parking them or flying non critical missions to stay current?

regards
fog
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 20:50
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Originally Posted by Chocks Away View Post
Let me put some facts on the table here.
Aerial fire bombers have and will always be a State Govt. contractural arrangement. Stop blaming the Federal Govt for your State Govt's inaction and Greens policies!
Over 140 aircrafts are currently here Australia wide with Coulsons having some of the bigger contracts along with the often seen Skycrane/Air-cranes now based in South Australia, Western Australia, Victoria, New South Wales & A.C.T.
There would not be such a bushfire emergency IF:
1) there were not so many F'n arsonists lighting these fires Australia wide (183 arrested already with >200 total sought so far...);
2) The Greens/Labour hadn't locked up the National Parks from grazing, backburns and locked/let firetrails overgrow for the sake of "habitat';
3) Farmers weren't fined by local muppet Local Councils for hazaed reduction on there own land!
... the list goes on but Victoria is a classic case in point, in absolute bureaucratic stupidity and socialist/green idiocricy... EVEN after the 2009 Black Saturday Royal Commission decree that mpre hazard reduction was paramount, they only achieved an average of 10% year on year... only 33% in the last year!
So tell me peeps, what good do you think fleets of fire-bombers from above, are going to do to fix the stupidity of many years worth of huge amounts of un-attended dry undergrowth and follage?
Heads need to roll over this and it comes down to State & Local jurisdictions, NOT as mass media are trying to feed you as Scott Morrison's direct responsibilty, like we were the same as the USA voting system.

Ahhh every bullshit trope pushed by murdoch media

only 20ish arson charges, the rest were littering / open fire charges

NSW is a liberal govt in power for 9years BUT LABOR BUT GREENS, It was the liberal state govt that sacked most of department responsible for maintainence of firetrails and burnoffs

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Old 16th Jan 2020, 20:59
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Originally Posted by Fogliner View Post
AT 802 fireboss, MAAFS systems for C 130, Canadair CL 415, All viable options in my opinion. Went through this a few years back when BC was on fire in Canada.
Wondered why our military wasn't utilizing the Herc's with the MAAFS Modules a lot more.
Would it not be good to provide our Military pilots with flying hours doing firefighting work rather than just parking them or flying non critical missions to stay current?

regards
fog
The CL415 wouldn't work here- we don't have enough open bodies of water for it to scoop, and it is to slow/expensive to use as a land based asset.

The best solutions for Aus are re purposed airliners- there is no end of supply of low priced feed stock, they can transport big loads at fast speeds, so the relative sparsity of airports is mitigated, and the fact that they don't cost much defrays the problem of low utilisation.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 21:00
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Firstly air crew would have to be paid. You just don't fly a B737 or anything else as a part timer. The simulator time alone means its not cost effective. I'm not sure Qantas and Virgin would be too happy letting RFS borrow a few dozen pilots in peak period?.

As far as continuing to lease equipment in as the main source, there are 2 problems.

1 It is increasingly not available due to the overlap of fire seasons.

2 There is no consistency of product in as much as we currently have numerous types of heavies here. Surely the optimum is 2 types of heavies which would allow a much better operational planned response. Consistency will never be an option under a lease in arrangement. A good example of how its done properly is Calfire and the French, Civil and Securite.

Wunwing.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 21:08
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Would love to see anyone trying to put heavy water bombers on the Australian register and operate under an Australian AOC............. CASA would have a field day.
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