Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific
Reload this Page >

UK CAA bites the bullet on pilots pure flying skills

Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

UK CAA bites the bullet on pilots pure flying skills

Old 8th Jul 2019, 08:33
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Oz
Posts: 77
A competent simulator instructor should have the skill to take a command seat and demonstrate the various types of unusual attitudes which can occur. You don't need Motion On for that. Pilot interpretation of what the instruments are telling him is the key to successful recovery to safe level flight. For example, a demonstration of a 737 in a spiral dive is easily done. The simulator freeze button is used to stop the simulator and image of the artificial horizon at any point of the spiral flight path. A short discussion may follow as to the most expedient way of getting out of trouble by unloading and leveling the wings etc. A building block exercise if you like.

I am detecting the words of an experienced instructor...couldn't agree more. The whole UPRT business is becoming just that ....

Fly Safe
Propjet88 is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2019, 09:14
  #22 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Age: 64
Posts: 320
Originally Posted by lucille View Post
As each iteration of airliner design takes to the skies, the capability of the automation systems increases thus negating the need for old school flying skills.

Over the years Iíve had a couple of reasonably major problems. Perhaps Iím just lucky, but the best of them came with autopilot failures as a bonus part of the deal.
mrdeux is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2019, 10:05
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Darwin and PNG
Posts: 842
Another Kids of the Magenta thread

Raw data and stick and rudder skills are mandatory for any airline pilot!

Full on aerobatic endorsement should be mandatory for all CPL candidates, like the old NVFR requirement that was dropped years ago. How many ATPL holders currently flying airliners would be able confidently have some idea to recognise and let alone attempt to recover with a good result from a high altitude upset condition without any major problems?
Duck Pilot is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2019, 12:46
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Equatorial
Age: 46
Posts: 357
Good luck bringing in any of this as it will cost airlines money.

You don't have a choice when you are flying single pilot in anything, you do it or you erm.... You make decisions good or bad.....

In todays airliners, depending on which part of the world, the command time is ENTIRELY made up of PICUS. Now thats fine if it is infact PICUS, however is it? That said its still multi crew, ya screwup and there is one more there for you, it may delay your progression but generally not your life. As in Europe from what I have been told cadetships have been done correctly, as were the original QF ones etc. Nowadays its all pay pay pay........

Who knows?

Sitting down the back I know a few stiff whiskys and I really don't care who's driving me, sometimes I don't want to know.

(ok shoot me down).
Global Aviator is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2019, 04:03
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 120
Originally Posted by B772 View Post
I suspect I would close both throttles and land straight ahead if in an Apache, heavy Seneca or heavy Partenavia.
Good luck with that technique if you get OEI just after takeoff into a hot northerly at YMMB. Take your golf clubs!
Pearly White is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2019, 07:55
  #26 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,803
I suspect I would close both throttles and land straight ahead if in an Apache, heavy Seneca or heavy Partenavia.
There can be danger in generalisations such as the above high-lighted comment. Single engine climb performance can be affected by several variables, among which is individual pilot skill. A windmilling prop will certainly ruin any climb performance.

The widely taught technique at flying schools of going through the mantra of mixture up, propeller pitch up, power up, gear up, flap up, identify dead side dead leg - confirm with throttle closure - then finally feather, is fine for cruise where some height loss may be acceptable. But near the ground where seconds can be lost while methodically going through the steps leading up to the final action of feathering the prop, can quickly lead to loss of directional control due to the huge drag caused by a windmilling propeller. The loss of airspeed caused by a windmilling propeller is dramatic and every second that passes with a propeller still windmilling can reduce survival rates. It follows that pilot skill has a significant bearing on whether the aircraft is able to climb on one engine - albeit it very slowly - with the prop feathered, or the pilot loses control.

Last edited by Centaurus; 12th Jul 2019 at 01:10.
Centaurus is online now  
Old 14th Jul 2019, 23:59
  #27 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 67
How to Fly

Having read the comments so far, there are many that proscribe an emphasis on stick and rudder skills, even aerobatics, as a cure for accidents. Hear, Hear.

While I happily applaud those sentiments, may I be bold enough to suggest that the cause of all accidents is related to basic training?

In brief, here are the fatal flaws in basic training, whether it's military or civilian training, with aerobatics or without.

First, there is too much emphasis on instruments, and not enough attention is paid to power, attitude, and all our other senses. Yes, I know the arguments against use of the senses. It's true only to a point, but not the whole truth.
Second, using Mazlow's Hierarchy of Needs as a guide, the FIRST need a student pilot must satisfy before being able to progress further up the pyramid toward self-actualization, is security. That means he has to learn how to control the aircraft confidently, to make it do what he wants it to do, and prevent it from doing what it would like. That takes care of security.
Third, the application of an understanding of our basic needs, and an application of the principles and methods of instruction, demand the following-
Tuition and repetitive practice of the basics of control - Power, Pitch, Roll, & Yaw until each skill is over-learned. In other words, it's learned to the point that it becomes instinctive by developing muscle memory of the skill, and becoming familiar with all the other sensory indications of correct technique. Sounds, control pressures, G pressures felt through the seat of the pants, postural pressures, even smells are important. No reference is to be made of the instruments at this stage.
Fourth, the skills learned in power, pitch, roll, and yaw control are then applied to learn how to fly at stall speed and below in full control. The effect of flap and trim are introduced when appropriate.
Fifth, all those skills are applied to fly circuit patterns in the air, away from other traffic, and at enough altitude to avoid turbulence.
This is only a brief description of a training method that would vastly improve basic pilot skills, preventing unintentional stalls or spins. Aeros are a good idea, so pilots can handle the aircraft in any attitude, but this will prevent pilots to allow the aircraft from ever unintentionally departing controlled flight.

QANTAS were one of the very few airlines to include aeros in their syllabus, along with Honda Airways who trained cadets for JAL, ANA, etc. All the world's military pilots learn aeros, and I can tell you from personal knowledge most still don't know how to fly in the stall, or how to fly power + attitude confidently. The reason is simple, they've spent too much time looking at instruments, and learning advanced skills and theories, before properly laying the basic foundations.

Having said that, I have little confidence in current QANTAS management to hold true to moral principles. Rod Eddington started the rot by merging Australian with QANTAS to fatten it for sale, then Joyce has followed behind to finish the job.
Manwell is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.